OT: Racing 2009 (Spoiler Alert)

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:21 pm

Adam:

You and Terry are atop my list of race drivers, with Smurf as my test mule.

Take care,
PK

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:22 pm

I just hope that the FOTA teams have the nads to stick with it now, and don't give in to Adolf Mosley and the Silver Troll Doll at some later date.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:31 pm

Gurantsu wrote:I just hope that the FOTA teams have the nads to stick with it now, and don't give in to Adolf Mosley and the Silver Troll Doll at some later date.

The current rumor is that Carmelo Ezpeleta who runs the FIM will be taking charge of the new series. An article I just read speculated that he might step down as principal of the FIM to head up the new series.

Call me nutso but something tells me this ain't over and a compromise could still be in the works. Also the BBC is reporting that Bernie is sitting in the corner of his room weeping and sobbing over the thought of loosing billions of his empire.

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:42 pm

THATS why I hope they don't compromise. If they do, as some point Bernie and Max will get things right back where they are now; all screwed up. FOTA need to stick to their guns on this one.

I think if they do Max and Bernie will learn quickly and painfully what the fans want to see, and it won't be their dog and pony show.

Smurfy · Post by **Smurfy** » Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:02 pm

pk500 wrote:Adam:

You and Terry are atop my list of race drivers, with Smurf as my test mule.

Take care,
PK

I assume you are referring to crash testing?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:17 am

Rodster wrote:The current rumor is that Carmelo Ezpeleta who runs the FIM will be taking charge of the new series. An article I just read speculated that he might step down as principal of the FIM to head up the new series.

Ezpeleta does not run the FIM; he runs Dorna Sports, which owns the commercial rights to MotoGP. He is to MotoGP what Bernie is to F1 but in a much less autocratic way. The FIM is the governing body of motorcycle racing, much like the FIA is for auto racing.

Bernie needs F1 with all the marquee teams and drivers because CVC, which bought part of F1 from him during the flush years a few years ago, needs a profitable F1 to recoup its investment. That's why Bernie has snubbed traditional European venues for banana republic tracks because those nations are willing to pay $50 million annual sanctioning fees, which pleases CVC to no end.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:35 am

Thanks for the correction I meant to say Dorna Sports.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:19 am

Rodster wrote:Call me nutso but something tells me this ain't over and a compromise could still be in the works.

Not over by a long chalk, my dear fellow, though I reserve the right to call you nutso all the same. Announcing a breakaway series is one thing, getting it set up in a way that pleases the teams, the drivers, the fans and the track owners is another. The legal aspects of the split from the FIA should be fun if they're correct in their assertion that Ferrari, Red Bull and Toro Ross are contractually committed, and you'd imagine Mr B C Ecclestone would prefer to have a cash cow that's still worth milking.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:43 am

GB_Simo wrote:
Rodster wrote:Call me nutso but something tells me this ain't over and a compromise could still be in the works.
Not over by a long chalk, my dear fellow, though I reserve the right to call you nutso all the same. Announcing a breakaway series is one thing, getting it set up in a way that pleases the teams, the drivers, the fans and the track owners is another. The legal aspects of the split from the FIA should be fun if they're correct in their assertion that Ferrari, Red Bull and Toro Ross are contractually committed, and you'd imagine Mr B C Ecclestone would prefer to have a cash cow that's still worth milking.

Venues shouldn't be a problem for the new series, though. There are a host of classic, traditional facilities that F1 has abandoned due to Bernie's money grab that could be added to a schedule quickly. A few come to mind:

Silverstone
Magny-Cours
Estoril
Montreal
Imola
Kyalami
Adelaide
Indianapolis (I know nothing, just tossing out the name)
A1 Ring
Mexico City

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:06 am

Montreal might not be a possibility because Bernie is negotiating with the track owners to bring F1 back to NA. I tend to agree with PK in that FOTA is probably more ready, willing and able to start up a new series next year than most give them credit for.

My contention as to why a compromise may still be in the works is that BE stands to lose millions if not billions from F1 revenue loss if the 8 kids decide to take their toys and play somewhere else. So now BE, MAx and the FIA knows that FOTA is dead serious, there's no more bluff, they are out next year. Now it's up to BE to pressure/convince Max and the FIA that it needs those 8 manufacturers in order for F1 to continue to be a viable world motorsport.

In the defense of FOTA they do have a point. The FIA within the last year have changed the sporting rules willy nilly and at the drop of a hat. KERS is one example of the FIA doing more harm than good and that counters the claim that the FIA wants to lower costs in the sport.

FI is no longer a Europe based sport as it has shifted to Asia and the Middle East where track owners and Governments are willing to pay BE's track sanction ransom fees.

Again I do agree with FOTA. If you bring the sport back to it's roots i.e. Europe, lower sanctioning fees which in turn lowers the price of admission you have the possibility of putting more butts or bums in the seats to watch the races.

I do think FOTA has had enough of both Bernie and Max but at the same time they know the star power of Formula One in the global sense. That's the key if BE, Max and the FIA can compromise where no one looks as the loser both sides can come out as winners. The only question is who's man enough to put their egos aside for the sake of the sport?

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:37 am

Kind of amusing how the Official Formula One website makes no mention of a breakaway series.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:07 am

Bernie's quote today at Silverstone when asked about the FOTA breakaway championship:

"You'll have to ask Max about it," said Ecclestone about the breakaway plans. "For me, this situation is just back to the future."

The irony isn't lost on me. Balestre smiles somewhere from the great pit stop in the sky.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:08 am

Rodster wrote:Kind of amusing how the Official Formula One website makes no mention of a breakaway series.

Why would it? It's a PR site run by Bernie's FOM, not a news site.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:36 am

PK, leaving aside how many of those circuits are shadows of their former selves or no great shakes to start with (from your list, I'd like Silverstone, Adelaide assuming the old F1 layout is still available rather than the emaciated V8 Supercars circuit, and the A1-Ring, which was in disrepair fairly recently), I was thinking more in terms of coming to a suitable financial arrangement with the circuits involved. I'm sure the will would be there from all of the tracks listed, but how the financial packages would work and whether there'd be the crowd level to make it worthwhile, I don't know so much.

Then again, for the first couple of years, that doesn't really matter, does it?

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:46 am

Shocka !

FIA to launch legal action against FOTA

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76316

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:41 pm

GB_Simo wrote:PK, leaving aside how many of those circuits are shadows of their former selves or no great shakes to start with (from your list, I'd like Silverstone, Adelaide assuming the old F1 layout is still available rather than the emaciated V8 Supercars circuit, and the A1-Ring, which was in disrepair fairly recently), I was thinking more in terms of coming to a suitable financial arrangement with the circuits involved. I'm sure the will would be there from all of the tracks listed, but how the financial packages would work and whether there'd be the crowd level to make it worthwhile, I don't know so much.

Then again, for the first couple of years, that doesn't really matter, does it?

I heard a rumor from a VERY reliable source today that FOTA won't charge more than $10 million for an annual sanctioning fee. That's pennies compared to Bernie's tariff.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:43 pm

PK out of curiosity, what does the IRL and Nascar charge for a race?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:37 pm

Rodster wrote:PK out of curiosity, what does the IRL and Nascar charge for a race?

That's classified.

Honestly, I don't know.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:03 pm

Spoken like a well seasoned PR machine.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:18 pm

pk500 wrote:I heard a rumor from a VERY reliable source today that FOTA won't charge more than $10 million for an annual sanctioning fee. That's pennies compared to Bernie's tariff.

Wow. I take it back, then, because at that rate they'll be queuing around the block to host a race.

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:29 pm

Lets hope Road America or Road Atlanta can pony up the cash!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:43 pm

Gurantsu wrote:Lets hope Road America or Road Atlanta can pony up the cash!

No way Road America has the infrastructure to hold any kind of F1 race. Plus it's too far from anywhere. Shame, as it's a wonderful track.

If the rumor that Coke wants in F1 (or maybe FOTA 1 now?) is true, then Road Atlanta becomes very attractive. It almost has the infrastructure to play host to an F1 race, and it's just up the road from Coke's world headquarters.

The big question is whether Dr. Don Panoz will be willing to pay the F1 sanctioning fee and spend the extra dough to upgrade the track to F1 standards. He may want the premier race at his track to be the Petit Le Mans, for which he spends no sanctioning fee.

There's only one permanent facility in the U.S. that could play host to an F1 or FOTA 1 race right now: Indianapolis.

Take care,
PK

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:45 am

Would FOTA demand the same type of resources and amenities as F1 does now? That would be a shame. They spend more om media centers now days than they do on the tracks.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:03 am

Yeah I always questioned the team media centers. Another way to save money is to eliminate the employee(s) who walk around with the drivers when facing the media.

There's lots of ways to save money in F1. As Max Mosley correctly asked the question. Why does it take 1,000 employees to run two cars? I agree with that, it's gotten out of control and if the teams were forced to cut back i'm sure they would make due and probably would question why they were needed in the first place.

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:13 pm

Rodster wrote:Yeah I always questioned the team media centers. Another way to save money is to eliminate the employee(s) who walk around with the drivers when facing the media.

There's lots of ways to save money in F1. As Max Mosley correctly asked the question. Why does it take 1,000 employees to run two cars? I agree with that, it's gotten out of control and if the teams were forced to cut back i'm sure they would make due and probably would question why they were needed in the first place.

I liken F1 to my line of work - the space industry. While 1000 employees may sound like a lot, it really isn't given the technology involved with these cars. These aren't Indy-spec cars where everyone gets the same chasis and engine or NASCAR (and in both of those series, don't discount the work of those that provide the engines, chasis, etc). F1 teams have design, analysis, manufacturing, quality assurance, testing, budget, advertising, management, and on and on to worry about, and bodies are needed to fill those spots. Given that a new car is generated every year, that's a lot of work.

Take a look at the private space company SpaceX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX) - they are developing a commercial space vehicle and have about 800 employees. Even though most of the critical hardware (engines, guidance systems, electronics, etc) are from other vendors, they still have a significant design and manufacturing staff. And these guys are trying to do things as cheap and efficient as possible. They've got plenty of performance margin. Compare that with F1 teams that have to design to get the absolute last bit of performance out of their engines, suspension, structure, electronics, etc.

Heck, even NASCAR teams have several hundred employees, and they are running mostly spec stuff and minimal development. Sounds like Max isn't living in the real world of engineering.