Soccer thread 08/09 (will have spoilers!)

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:41 pm

Naples39 wrote:
Jimmydeicide wrote:There is parity throughout europe anyone could get beat by anybody on its day.
The EPL has been won by one of 3 clubs 15 of the last 16 years.

La Liga has been won by Barcelona or Madrid 20 of the last 24 years.

The Eredivisie has been won Ajax or PSV in 23 of the last 25 years, with 2 titles to Feyenoord.

That it is about as far as you can get from parity.

IMO parity is a false deity when it comes to sports, and it's typically embraced by the owner looking for a free buck and fans of the teams of owners looking for a free buck. All of the data suggest that a league can thrive without jury-rigging rules to punish the successful teams, but commissioners cave left and right to punish owners who win in order to protect those who invest less or less successfully than their competitors.

Typical cartel logic, unfortunately.

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:14 pm

I understand the issues with parity, especially with some of the more contrived rules, but I find it difficult to understand how people can get excited for the premier league title. The field is so extremely imbalanced that every year only 4 teams (assuming you want to count Liverpool

) have a realistic chance of winning. Unless you're a fan of those teams, why would you care which of the premier league empires gets to have bragging rights for a year? Iit's like watching royalty get into contests of who is the richest---an insiders only club.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:20 pm

The leagues need to get a bigger piece of the CL pie. Lower how a club gets and then use that towards youth development or to share between the non-CL teams.

Because sports over there are not like it is here. Could you imagine if relegation was in the NFL. Cincinnati, Arizona and Detroit would be in the 3rd division by now.

While it hurts interest in the game, the mere threat of relegation does keep interest in the game.

Just have some sort of luxury/CL tax where that money gets paid out progressively to the 8-5 teams. Let's face it Everton, Aston Villa are not in the the top 4 because they desperately need the CL windfall to break through.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:42 pm

It seems like second tier clubs can't break into the top 4 because of money. Villa is stalling and Arsenal is getting key injured players back.

They don't have the depth to sustain the injuries over the long season like the rich clubs.

I wasn't the biggest fan of parity when the salary cap was instituted in the NFL. And certainly the situation in baseball is ridiculous but there is at least some basic sharing of revenues via the luxury tax.

These soccer leagues have a handful of teams with huge resources and then a lot of clubs which are fillers, like the Washington Generals, never expected to really beat the good teams consistently.

Lot of the lower division clubs apparently look for "assistance?" Not from the govt. necessarily but maybe some fundraising events outside of games?

It sounds like many of these small town clubs are barely viable and exist mainly to fill out this hierarchy of leagues.

Macca00 · Post by **Macca00** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:11 pm

See, Naples - I can resist the bait.

Tottenham have spent a sh!t-load of money over the past 2-3 seasons (more net spending than Liverpool and Arsenal), and Villa have spent a fair bit too. The only team up there that hasn't really splashed the cash like crazy are Everton (that said, Screech cost them 15 million and they bought The Yak/Purple Aki for 12 million).

Not denying that money isn't a massive factor in a club's success but just pointing out that the teams outside of the big 4 aren't exactly skint either.

EDIT:
Also, Villa wouldn't be faltering this far in the season if O'Neill had of rested his players earlier in the season....wait, perhaps 'rest' isn't the right word....any ideas on an alternate wording? Rob?

Bueller?

Man City will have a fun off-season this year.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:15 am

Macca00 wrote: EDIT:
Also, Villa wouldn't be faltering this far in the season if O'Neill had of rested his players earlier in the season....wait, perhaps 'rest' isn't the right word....any ideas on an alternate wording? Rob?

Bueller?

I've been told by The Authorities that I can't use the R----e word any longer. Apparently they're on to me.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:48 am

It's official, the Vancouver Whitecaps will start their MLS season in 2011. OK, I'll start following MLS games from now on.

fanatic · Post by **fanatic** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:54 am

10spro wrote:It's official, the Vancouver Whitecaps will start their MLS season in 2011. OK, I'll start following MLS games from now on.

Let the rivalry begin! (almost)

Post by **Jared** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:42 pm

It's a great pick simply from a rivalry standpoint, as they'll have natural rivalries both with Seattle and Toronto. My guess is, seeing the popularity of MLS in both of those cities already, they'll be a solid draw.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:55 pm

Fanatic, from the geograpic point of view, those TOR-VAN games will be a blast although the Whitecaps always had tough games against the likes of Seattle who's now also on MLS and Portland. Those three cities would usually fight for the USL championship.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:03 pm

American players may not like playing north of the border.

And Vancouver didn't really support the Grizzlies did they?

fanatic · Post by **fanatic** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:04 pm

10spro wrote:Fanatic, from the geograpic point of view, those TOR-VAN games will be a blast although the Whitecaps always had tough games against the likes of Seattle who's now also on MLS and Portland. Those three cities would usually fight for the USL championship.

Yeah, sounds like the perfect fit. Plus you can travel only 3 hours and sit in the away supporters section quite easily

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:12 pm

wco81 wrote:American players may not like playing north of the border.

And Vancouver didn't really support the Grizzlies did they?

Why not? Look at TOR.

The Grizzlies experiment failed because of Stu Jackson. The drafting was terrible. Remember the name of B. Reeves? What a waste of space he was. Big country, they would call him, he was a Big Waste instead.
They traded O. Thorpe a veteran that had some credibility for a young team.

They were handicapped by the league's expansion agreement. I still think if we had a Vince Carter or been able to keep Francis, the team would still be here. But every chance we had always seemed to go sideways. We never caught a break, too bad because the fan base was there to support the team.

fanatic · Post by **fanatic** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:13 pm

wco81 wrote:American players may not like playing north of the border.

And Vancouver didn't really support the Grizzlies did they?

Toronto has had no problem with US players. Probably also stems from the fact that a guy getting paid $100K isn't quite as demanding as an NBA star for example.

Don't forget you're talking about Vancouver in the summer. I can't think of many other places anybody would want to be

About the Grizzlies - I'm not an expert on what went down, but from what I remember, the fan support wasn't really issue. Maybe 10spro can shed some light on that.

Post by **Jared** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:23 pm

wco81 wrote:American players may not like playing north of the border.

And Vancouver didn't really support the Grizzlies did they?

For Canadian teams in MLS, Americans count as foreign players. Granted, Toronto is allowed extra foreign slots compared to other MLS teams, but the majority of the roster will be Canadian nationals.

As for support, their USL squad drew about 5k a game in a stadium that seats 6k. Ticket prices are supposed to be below NHL and (old) NBA prices...my guess is that attendance will be solid.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:40 pm

Jared wrote: As for support, their USL squad drew about 5k a game in a stadium that seats 6k. Ticket prices are supposed to be below NHL and (old) NBA prices...my guess is that attendance will be solid.

Swangard Stadium is just about a five minutes walk from my neighborhood and the Whitecaps would draw about 5.000 fans to watch their games. With MLS approaching, they will be playing in a renovated BC place stadium (where the Lions play football currently) and they're looking at about a 15.000 season ticket sell with a capacity of 22.000 at max.

Still talks are ongoing about a complete new stadium in the downtown core of the city to be the exclusive home of the Whitecaps, but I don't see that happening until 2015 or so.

If you look at TOR, they've sold about 16.000 season tickets and have a 14.000 person wait list. If anything, historically the Whitecaps have a greater history in soccer than Toronto FC. Stevie Nash is among one of the owners, management wise, we're solid.

Personaly, I know that the interest will be big here, there's a large Italian fan base here and European community, so it'll detract the attention of the many MU and Juventus fans here.

I just hope that Portland gets the next franchise.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:57 pm

What the renovated BC place stadium would look like:

The proposed new Stadium:

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:01 pm

Do Euro nationals really watch the MLS though?

I think they will go to a pub with satellite to watch games from Europe instead.

Americans in Europe were not watching NFL Europe games in any numbers, I would imagine.

Or European basketball league games for that matter.

fanatic · Post by **fanatic** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:09 pm

wco81 wrote:Do Euro nationals really watch the MLS though?

I think they will go to a pub with satellite to watch games from Europe instead.

Americans in Europe were not watching NFL Europe games in any numbers, I would imagine.

Or European basketball league games for that matter.

In Toronto they definitely support TFC. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are tuning into a Kansas City Wizards vs. Real Salt Lake game or even watching the MLS finals, but home team support is there.

Toronto has a sizeable Portugese and Italian community and you really notice it at the games. Sure, they are still very (and in most cases much more so) comitted to their European clubs, but supporting the MLS doesn't require a huge sacrifice really. A lot of the season falls in the European off-season which helps.

I suspect it will be the same in Vancouver - not a huge embracing of MLS necessarily, but surely a passion for attending live soccer and enjoying the atmosphere that goes along with it.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:18 pm

[quote="wco81"]Do Euro nationals really watch the MLS though?[quote]

Let's not mix apples with oranges. Having the Whitecaps play in MLS will a boost for the city and soccer aficionados in Vancouver. But they'll still be second fiddle to the Canucks by a wide margin and personally because of my background, I will still rather follow the progress of my beloved Boca Juniors in Argentina, followed by La liga, Serie A and EPL.

Still, soccer is practiced and played only second to Hockey here in Vancouver and the interest will only be increased with today's announcement.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:42 pm

wco81 wrote:Do Euro nationals really watch the MLS though?

I think they will go to a pub with satellite to watch games from Europe instead.

Americans in Europe were not watching NFL Europe games in any numbers, I would imagine.

Or European basketball league games for that matter.

It won't be 'instead'....MLS isn't shown in England, and I doubt whether it ever will be, apart perhaps from a 30 mins highlight show once a week.

Even Serie A isn't currently shown live in the UK, though that was partly due to the ridiculous price being asked.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:46 pm

MLS is a joke can we talk about real football now?

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:52 am

ESPN has lost the Champions League rights in the US to Fox. Boy, I hope fox goes HD sometime soon.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:37 am

fsquid wrote:ESPN has lost the Champions League rights in the US to Fox. Boy, I hope fox goes HD sometime soon.

Amen!

tjung0831 · Post by **tjung0831** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:04 pm

Looks like Portland is going to be announced tomorrow morning as the other expansion team. St. Louis gets hosed again. 3 teams in the PNW in 2 years...Garber is an idiot.

Tim