wco81 wrote:Yes, there are players in the HoF who don't have the greatest numbers. That was my point all along. Ben may end up with more SB rings than anyone, by being for the most part a game manager who relies on making plays in the pocket rather than producing consistently in a disciplined passing game.
So you're penalizing Roethlisberger for being an improviser in the pocket instead of a system automaton?
Interesting.
There's a reason why college passing system robots who posted HUGE numbers, like Dan McGwire, David Klingler and Andre Ware, never were successful in the pros: They don't have the ability to improvise and adapt when the play designed by their system disintegrates. Or they function in offenses that put the ball in the air 50 or more times per game with four- and five-WR sets on all downs.
You can insert just about every Florida QB under Spurrier into that "non-adapting" equation, too -- Danny Wuerffel, Shane Matthews, Doug Johnson.
Brady certainly is not an automaton, as Michigan's offense never will be confused with the run-and-gun offenses used by Houston and San Diego State!
Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
HoF consideration is a mixture of numbers and accomplishments. If you're like Marino, you need great stats because you don't have the championship appearances (and also because he was a very average playoff QB). If you're Terry Bradshaw, you can be forgiven for having some off years because of your overall accomplishments. Roethlisberger is definitely on that track.
The other thing is, it is pointless to argue how much defensive support QBs who win the Super Bowl receive. Most of the time, the teams that win have an elite or at least a very good defense behind them. The 2006 Colts were one of the rare exceptions to that rule. Even teams remembered mostly for the offense like the 1999 Rams had top defenses.
A lot of times, the passes he throws after scrambling are available after a 3 or 5-step drop.
He may get a bit more separation for his WRs by buying time, sometimes drawing the LBs up who were covering the underneath zones when he breaks containment.
Most of the passes he threw on that winning drive were at most 10-15 yards downfield. QBs do not have to buy more than 5 seconds on scrambles to hit those routes.
He isn't the first QB or the last who will be advised to get the timing patterns down, if nothing else to minimize injury risk.
Montana improvised a lot early in his career. The Catch was emblematic of that, where he rolls out and buys enough time until Clark crosses from one side to the other corner of the end zone.
But in his most productive years, he hit slants and post routes from inside the pocket, often hitting receivers on their break, in full stride, for maximum RAC yardage.
With Rothlisberger's early success, maybe he doesn't have an incentive to change. It's working so why mess with it, right?
They do indeed. The numbers for Brady and Roethlisberger after five seasons of their respective careers are very comparable. It's not often I need to cut and paste within the same post to reiterate a point, but what the hell.
wco81 wrote:With Rothlisberger's early success, maybe he doesn't have an incentive to change. It's working so why mess with it, right?
True. But a lot also has to do with the personnel available to him. No question the one season with Moss made Brady look intergalactic rather than just All-World. Think Montana would have been as good without Rice, Taylor, Clark, Jones and Craig during his career?
The West Coast offense also increases a QB's efficiency because it relies more on the short, spread-the-wealth passing game than vertical, stretch-the-secondary passing. Plus yards after catch are vital in a West Coast system, and nobody was better at YAC than Rice.
Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
I really don't know if these are records...just looked up some QBs with multiple Super Bowl Rings mentioned in the thread. These QBs got better statistically with age. There's absolutely no reason to believe Roethlisberger won't. And the two words I can think regarding his long term motivation to improve...spinal concussion.
Didn't some HOF QB's like Bradshaw and Elway have absolutely horrid seasons at the beginning of their careers? That's what makes Brady and Roethlisberger so remarkable. They've been good from day one.
Brando70 wrote:
The other thing is, it is pointless to argue how much defensive support QBs who win the Super Bowl receive. Most of the time, the teams that win have an elite or at least a very good defense behind them. The 2006 Colts were one of the rare exceptions to that rule. Even teams remembered mostly for the offense like the 1999 Rams had top defenses.
Ya...and even the Colts played defense in the playoffs.
