Sports Game Malaise

Post by **Jared** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:14 pm

Bill Abner made a post on his blog about sports gaming malaise, which I'm going to excerpt part of below. I was curious on what everyone's take on this is. Link is below:

http://nutweasel.blogspot.com/2009/01/s ... laise.html

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:23 pm

I don't think much has changed for me...

There are a good handful of great sports games I play regularly.. NCAA 09, NHL 09, Baseball Mogul 09, and I'm looking forward to MLB 2k9 and a new roster set for ootp9.

There has been so many good NON-sports games, that has really been keeping me from getting more into sports gaming - normally 90% of of gaming time used to be sports games.

I think Bill is too picky.

Comes with being a reviewer I suppose.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:29 pm

This burnout occurred for me a few years ago, and it's one of the reasons why I had little trouble leaving console gaming for the PC.

Racing always has been my favorite sports gaming genre, but now it's my ONLY sports gaming genre. New PC racing games with more realism continue to be released, and the insanely gifted, creative and benevolent mod community for PC racing sims continues to crank out new content by the week for nearly every existing sim, keeping them fresh and vital.

Combine that with the fact that most publishers have abandoned or neglected the PC as a sports gaming platform (other than text sims), and it's easy to see why PC sim racing is my only sports gaming choice. Play Madden 08 or NHL 09 on the PC, and you'll know why: They're basically the same damn games as their predecessors, and this kind of sh*t has been going on for a while. Even with mods, they're not as fun or realistic as PC racing sims.

It's funny how a simple game like World of Goo can deliver way more pleasure and wonder to me than a new EA PC sports game or the latest version of Pro Evo. That's pretty telling about the status of sports gaming for me.

Take care,
PK

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:30 pm

I can see Bill's point. But I don't necessarily agree. Sure, the competition in each type of sport has pretty much ruined the innovation...but we still are getting pretty good games and after playing games for so many years, I'm pretty used to knowing what to expect with each release. Nothing will be really revolutionary...but they are still decent games. I may not play them as much as I used to, but that's just a result of getting a few more responsibilities in life (getting married, house hunting, job promotions, etc.). I'm sure once things like that settle down, I'll start playing as much as before.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:50 pm

I've been there for a long time. I've mentioned it here quite a bit over the last couple of years, but I'm hardly a sports gamer anymore. I don't think it's just sports gaming that suffers this issue, but they are one of the least likely genres to innovate.

Not saying that you *have* to innovate, but if I'm largely getting the same game in 09 that I had in 07, I may as well keep playing 07.

IMO, sports games also have a pretty big problem in that in most of them, there is 'one best way' to do something, and you rarely have to vary from that strategy or plan of attack the whole game, or maybe even the whole season. That can grow tiring quickly.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:51 pm

Burnout happens, just like in Pk's example. Of course when you are talking about Abner, it is all but guaranteed. When you try to look at every sports game you play, as if you are trying to emulate what you see on TV, well it is bound to happen. They are games first and some people tend to forget that little fact.

Post by **Jared** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:07 pm

webdanzer wrote:IMO, sports games also have a pretty big problem in that in most of them, there is 'one best way' to do something, and you rarely have to vary from that strategy or plan of attack the whole game, or maybe even the whole season. That can grow tiring quickly.

Yes.

Burnout happens, just like in Pk's example. Of course when you are talking about Abner, it is all but guaranteed. When you try to look at every sports game you play, as if you are trying to emulate what you see on TV, well it is bound to happen. They are games first and some people tend to forget that little fact.

No.

To elaborate, I don't mind if you have fun games that don't emulate everything that you see on TV, as long as there is balance, multiple strategies are effective, and it has some realism. For example, NHL 09 isn't a truly "realistic" game of hockey, but it's very, very fun. And arcade sports games with balance can be fun to.

However, you can have games that are very realistic and are really fun because they capture a lot of that realism. See The Show, for example.

hellbent · Post by **hellbent** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:09 pm

I understand what Bill is saying, and there are some good points brought up here so far too. I do feel that the lack of innovation and variety are the biggest issues. I'm not going to point fingers strictly at the exclusive deals with the NFL and MLB, because a developer can CHOOSE not to make an unlicensed game. I don't care to get into the profitability motives for the developers as there are plenty of good unlicensed sports games that I have been playing the past year or two.

For me at least, I feel that the major sports game franchises have gotten stale the last few years. For example, 2k basketball still uses a variation of the same basic engine VC has fine-tuned since NBA Action 98. I enjoy 2k9 and CH 2k8 but prefer March Madness this year since it feels like a "new" game. There's a long list of posters here and seemingly everywhere on the net that feel that next-gen Madden is just plain dull (NFLHC 09, despite not being an action/arcade experience, is much more engaging, imo). PES just seems to be floundering lately.

I'd love to see more new titles out there, or at least some innovation to the older titles. The bigger franchises have just been gathering dust for me lately while I have played more games from small developers. The games have felt fresh and fun even if they are not perfect approximations of a given sport. In fact, after reading the impressions on DSP last week about NSS 4, I'm looking forward to checking that out.

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:11 pm

After a while, repetitiveness can sour the enjoyment of a particular sports game that used to seem fresh and exciting. The same game engine can only last so long.

I purchased and resold NBA 2K9 within the past week recently because I have tired of the game engine and the lack of defensive control.

I can see myself playing a full season of MLB '09, but after this year...who knows. After a while, you can only play the same game so long.

NHL '09 is still entertaining to play, but again we can pretty much expect the same game engine next year. Don't fix what's not broken.

Madden just disappoints me year in and year out. In my mind, the developers rested on their laurels and decided graphical upgrades were more important than enhancing the game play and presentation. Football is the most popular sport in America, and EA basically took advantage of the popularity.

I still look forward to sports game releases, but my interest has definitely lessened over the past couple years. When a game such as Uncharted: Drakes Fortune sucks me in like none other, I feel let down when I fork over $60 of my hard earned money for basically the same sports game, year in and year out.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:22 pm

Jared wrote: No.

To elaborate, I don't mind if you have fun games that don't emulate everything that you see on TV, as long as there is balance, multiple strategies are effective, and it has some realism. For example, NHL 09 isn't a truly "realistic" game of hockey, but it's very, very fun. And arcade sports games with balance can be fun to.

However, you can have games that are very realistic and are really fun because they capture a lot of that realism. See The Show, for example.

You can also spend more time breaking down games then you can playing them (lab testing, slider obsessing, etc). Breaking down individual games and stats has never been my thing. I like realism but I realize the limitations of trying to create them in video game form.

Excuse the pimp of an old post but it saves me from retyping it.
http://www.sportsgamingnation.com/sgnfo ... 8006#18006

* I say this in the most loving manner possible.

I always felt you and Abner could suck the fun out of Tecmo Bowl if given then chance of the internet existing back then.

btmmayor · Post by **btmmayor** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:34 pm

webdanzer wrote: I've mentioned it here quite a bit over the last couple of years, but I'm hardly a sports gamer anymore.

That's my situation as well. The only game I play that includes a franchise mode in it is The Show. I play quite a few racing games and I also enjoy Skate 2 and Shawn White on the Wii but that's about the extent of my sports gaming. I would say that 90 to 95% of my gaming is not sports related (unless you consider hunting down aliens, soldiers and generally bad dudes sporting

).

Post by **Jared** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:35 pm

Ha. Actually, I really like Tecmo Bowl, because it has good control for a Nintendo game, and has a simple but fun rock/paper/scissors element to play-calling. I played a LOT of Tecmo Super Bowl as a youngin. It made a fun game, taking into account the limitations of a Nintendo.

I think I disagree because I don't think there are as many limitations to creating a fun, realistic game, based on the hardware we've got right now. It can be done as long as the developers are a) talented enough to do it and b) make it a priority. I think that if a developer cared to do it, they could create a really solid football engine that captures all the nuances of the game while making it fun. But instead, we get games like NCAA which, although they have fun parts (and I still play it at times), also have things like consistently terrible angle taking, pass coverage that can be both too good (fly routes) and too bad (crossing routes) at the same time, crappy ball physics, poor play calling AI, inability to adjust to you when you do the same thing over and over again, etc. I think when I see what non-sports games (or good sports games, like The Show, Football Manager, older Winning Elevens, etc.) can do, both with graphics, physics, and AI, I wonder why sports games haven't made similar advances.

And to respond to your SGN post, I think I would be fine if that stuff happened in an NCAA sim. My problem (and his) is when that stuff happens too frequently or not frequently enough. If you have an NCAA basketball game, you want that 5-12 game to be an upset about 25% of the time. If it's zero percent or 50 percent, then you've got balance issues in the sim engine, or the team ratings. Same with a football sim engine; you want realistic variability, but not massive variability. I think he often complains more about the latter. And if he doesn't; well, that's my complaint.

johnvon314 · Post by **johnvon314** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:49 pm

Unfortunately most of us predicted this correctly when EA bought the exclusive NFL license. The game just has not improved or innovated significantly and seemingly has some new major bug every edition. The recent layoff of staff does not bode well for the future. Yet the NFL renewed the contract. What does that say about our purchasing power? Not very much.

Every other sport has gone through its cycles. Golf, once a mainstay on the PC, has not changed much since the realtime swing was realized. EA's soccer and hockey games have been the most innovative (where not coincidentally there is competition). Basketball is somewhat stagnant with one less game (the 2K college hoop series). Road course racing games may be in the best situation as most of the developers are not as married to the yearly cycle, and the games have the best free talent around.

I think most of us are old enough to remember the big gaming crash of the early 80's. It's ironic that gaming crashed just as the economy began its long rise. We all know that it was due to the saturation of bad games (remember ET and Pacman on the 2600?). Nintendo rectified this by requiring standards and royalties with the NES. Add to that the increasing complexity of development, and you have fewer games overall.

So now with a bad economy, will gaming survive on all the platforms? I worry about the PC in particular as we've seen so many virtually abandon it. Sports (except for racing) is a big loser as you lose the modding capability. We've all known that consoles cater to the mainstream. At what point will they grow tired of playing the same game every year? I think it will eventually happen. Which developer will take the risk of putting out something truly new and innovative?

I hope we keep holding developers' foot to the fire to make the sports games more realistic. I don't believe adding realism takes away from the fun factor if done right. I wonder sometimes if our concerns are being heard. That's why companies like Blizzard do so well. They release the few games they make when they're ready and listen to the fanbase. The games are both innovative and familiar. They reach the right balance.

So will sports games really innovate, remain stagnant to keep some fans happy, or die out from lack of interest? I hate to guess, but I would say the middle.

John

Jimmydeicide · Post by **Jimmydeicide** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:04 pm

I have it for sure, other than Some hockey forget it.
Especially with non sport genres.
Not enough advancement for me i think, no new developers with a fresh take on a sport, same old same old, better graphics, gameplay stays pretty much the same.
EA NHL franchise re tooled for 07 and it was a great boost for me but here we are with 09 and what really has changed?

I dont online as much any more and that seems to be where a lot of time is taken up maybe, the single player game is getting the leftovers, the hand me downs.

I think the whole industry has to look at ways to encourage some new developers its too expensive the way they are doing it now.
Gone are the days we had 5 choices of a hockey game.

Ill take Nhl 2k3 graphics if the ai is great. Why not start from scratch, dial in the on ice product and ai in overhead view and 2d then bring in fluff, 3d engine and the likes.

Maybe i forget but Wayne Gretzky Hockey 3 had more options than some of todays games other than controls maybe.

Im bored with gaming, heres to some new blood somewhere, maybe on pc let the fans mod the crap out of it.

There is always hope.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:40 pm

And here's where many thought the Wii would come in.

What you give up in graphics you can focus on ideas.

I really thought we would see a Hot Shots like game this is better than Tiger.

I think EA has just ran out of ideas and turned into Hollywood where cranking out a 40m gross flick with matthew mcconaughey is better than spending 100m for a potential 1b worldwide blockbuster. EA has a serious case of risk aversion.

I just don't see this changing...there's not a great avenue for small developers to release sports games into the market.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:59 pm

Overall, my sports gaming has been decreasing at a steady rate. Other than MVP 2005 (Xbox), the Show (PSP), and Madden 09 (Xbox), I don't regularly play any sports titles. The only new gen sports game I spend a lot of time with is TW08 on the Wii....oh and Wii sports.

Rock Band and Guitar Hero have really saved gaming for me. These are the first games in a long while to really capture my attention long-term and make gaming feel truly fun and exciting again.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:17 pm

Sports games suffer from execution, not innovation.

There's only so much you can do with games that have hard and fast rules. You can decide if you want your running back to run faster by holding a button or tapping a button. But you still have to obey the rules of football. You can't stick materia in the pigskin that allows you to unleash an Orb of Stiff Arming.

What keeps sports games from getting repetitive to me is if they put up a decent challenge. If I can start a game and not know whether I am likely to win or lose, I'll probably keep playing as long as the game represents the sport fairly. This is usually determined by the quality of the AI and the quality of the controls. The problem for most games, as others have said, is that it quickly becomes apparent that there's one optimum way to play, regardless of the strengths of the team you choose.

Developers also put too much stock in TV-style presentation. Even the best commentary and cut scenes will become stale after a couple dozen games. I get sick of most real-life commentators, so the virtual ones don't stand a chance. Games that would focus more on on-field atmosphere IMHO would provide more long-term immersion, as long as the AI was good.

Better AI and more of a you-are-there approach would go a long way toward rejuvenating the genre.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:35 pm

I play fewer sports games now than I used to, but those that I do play get a lot more time than before. OTP, in NHL and FIFA was for me an absolute revolution. It's the most fun way to play because effectively it obviously introduces teamwork on a level heretofore unseen and totally unavailable in a single-player or 1v1 experience. It's simply the best and most satisfying way for me to play a sports game.

From a single-player perspective, the only value added over something like OTP is the franchise experience. Unfortunately, these have uniformly stagnated or gotten worse across all franchises. I think Head Coach was the only recent step forward in this regard. Otherwise they are all plagued by AI issues, interface problems and a general sense that it's always the area of the development budget that's getting shafted. A total and disappointing lack of innovation IMO.

So no malaise for me, but a distinct disinterest in playing the same incrimentally improved game from year to year offline with a franchise that is almost sure to disappoint.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:44 pm

JRod wrote:And here's where many thought the Wii would come in.

What you give up in graphics you can focus on ideas.

I think the Wii has come through with perhaps the best innovation this generation (outside of maybe OTP, as Rob pointed out); PES with pointer controls. Being able to orchestrate how your team plays, not just the individual player you control, is stunning. The fact that the openings, feints, off-ball movement, etc - the things that make soccer the team sport it is - are all at your command changes everything. With supposed upgrades to defense (it was pretty bad, firs time round) and graphics, I think PES 2009 for Wii will up the ante once again.

What the Wii hasn't done is revolutionize any other sports. Though Wii Madden is fun - arguably more so than the 360/PS3 versions - it is at its core a PS2 game with a different control scheme. The AI is no better than it was in 2005. FIFA wasn't bad, but wasn't PES; Live on Wii makes the first few 360/PS3 versions look outstanding.

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:53 pm

I agree with Rob that franchise modes have turned to crap. I really have no interest in using points to buy a new team bus or a new negotiator. How about you manage games and contracts, with none of the BS fluff? Or at least turn off the BS fluff if that junk sells copies to the masses.

I think the best way to re-invigorate games is to have more going on under the hood. It's like when you take a shot in PES, on the surface it's just a simple power meter, but really the game is calculating player position, momentum, ball height and speed, and three different player shooting ratings. The result is a unique shot every time, which keeps the game fresh without feeling random for the sake of being random.

Obviously PES games are getting stagnant as a whole, but I think all sports games could have a new life breathed into them with such enhanced physics systems yet still a very simple control scheme. I don't think EA sports has ever done this well in any of their franchises, and unfortunately EA is increasingly becoming the only game in town for sports.

Of course the real problem are the consumers. People want their madden to feel like madden, and resist any real substantive change to the guts of the games beyond tinkering with features. As long as people keep buying the same crap year after year developers have no reason to change anything and won't take any real risks.

I'd also like to think that Wii-Motionplus can provide an enhanced sports game experience with true 1-to-1 motion control rather than the standard 'waggle instead of press a button' scheme that is so common today, but I really have no faith in that happening.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:03 pm

I's say that the Wii revolutionized golf and bowling. TW isn't perfect, but it's a lot of fun having to actually swing the remote like a club.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:52 pm

I'm just playing less period.

It's easier after a long day of work, to watch TV. Instead, I find a couple of hour stretch on weekends here and there.

Madden was stale LONG before the exclusive license. All the faults we find with the AI were there since before the PS2 days, on the PC where they really developed their 3D engine.

So we're talking about at least 10 years. I no longer believe they're capable to changing even if they wanted to. They've probably been patching over the basic logic and AI since the Genesis days. They probably don't know how to rewrite the algorithms to produce more realism. Gamers have identified the symptoms but EA isn't equipped to find the cures.

NCAA gameplay has been even worse.

OTP is the only interesting development of this generation. And with that, they're screwing it up with the Club stuff, because I don't buy a licensed game to play with fake players.

Even with patching capabilities this generation, the games, even months after release, have serious flaws and we're told it'll be taken care of next year.

FatPitcher · Post by **FatPitcher** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:05 pm

I'm pretty tired of sports games as well. I'd like to see more non-licensed sports games that are designed to be fun video games first and sports games second. The obsession with making things look exactly like they do on TV is a turn-off for me. For one, it tends to make the game less responsive (NBA2K9), and for another, it puts the games in the uncanny valley.

I want to play a remake of Cyberball, with a Franchise mode where you upgrade your robots and develop new technologies over the course of a season.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:06 pm

wco81 wrote:I'm just playing less period.

It's easier after a long day of work, to watch TV. Instead, I find a couple of hour stretch on weekends here and there.

That's it for me. I've got a much tougher job with a lot of responsibilities that I didn't have before...so I'm playing a lot less. I'm also spending my free time with the family or riding my bike. I've actually gotten back in to text sims on the laptop because I can play while I'm watching sports on TV. I have not played a game on a console since around the holidays when I was playing a season of NFL2k5 and a bit of Rock Band. Microsoft sent me a coffin on Monday to send my 360 back but I still haven't bothered to send it in.

Plus, I'm just worn out complaining about the same things that would really help me enjoy gaming. I can't spend an hour playing and most companies refuse to add in-game saves. Conceptually a game like Head Coach is right up my alley, but I really lost interest when not only did I have to learn the game but also what I *couldn't* do because of the crippling bugs. The Show is a fabulous video game, but I can't say that I'm enjoying anything but the graphics more than I did the old High Heat games.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:42 pm

FatPitcher wrote:I'm pretty tired of sports games as well. I'd like to see more non-licensed sports games that are designed to be fun video games first and sports games second. The obsession with making things look exactly like they do on TV is a turn-off for me. For one, it tends to make the game less responsive (NBA2K9), and for another, it puts the games in the uncanny valley.

That's generally not a problem with sports games, which lag other genres in terms of graphics fidelity.

In fact, shooters have no problems producing better, smoother graphics without losing responsiveness, with ragdoll physics to boot.

Not that sports games should have ragdoll physics but it would be nice to have some physics.

Obsession? Well that's the way the video game industry has been pushing forward, improving graphics with each generation (except for the Wii and the jury's out whether that will happen again).

I see attempts to make even better-looking games in the future.