OT - Financial mess 101 ($700 billion bailout)
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- pk500
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Interesting. Sounds like this cat's book also is a good read.
The bank clearly was criminal scum, but taking a $720,000 loan on $14,000 per year? Even someone who doesn't know English and works as a migrant worker should know that math doesn't add up.
Take care,
PK
The bank clearly was criminal scum, but taking a $720,000 loan on $14,000 per year? Even someone who doesn't know English and works as a migrant worker should know that math doesn't add up.
Take care,
PK
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- matthewk
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I'm sure both sides knew it was a deal bound to fail, but neither side cared at that point. I just really, really hope that our govt. has at least enough sesne not to bail out either in cases such as this.
This kind of crap ticks me off even more now, as I am facing the likelyhood of my job being outsourced to India. I'm not saying my outsourcing is directly related, but thanks to the immoral actions of greedy SOBs on wall street (and Detroit, and lots of other palces I'm sure will surface now that there is free money on the table) my job search is getting more difficult by the day.
Merry f-ing Christmas you greedy f&*kers.
This kind of crap ticks me off even more now, as I am facing the likelyhood of my job being outsourced to India. I'm not saying my outsourcing is directly related, but thanks to the immoral actions of greedy SOBs on wall street (and Detroit, and lots of other palces I'm sure will surface now that there is free money on the table) my job search is getting more difficult by the day.
Merry f-ing Christmas you greedy f&*kers.
-Matt
Couldn't agree more. Good luck Matthew.matthewk wrote:I'm sure both sides knew it was a deal bound to fail, but neither side cared at that point. I just really, really hope that our govt. has at least enough sesne not to bail out either in cases such as this.
This kind of crap ticks me off even more now, as I am facing the likelyhood of my job being outsourced to India. I'm not saying my outsourcing is directly related, but thanks to the immoral actions of greedy SOBs on wall street (and Detroit, and lots of other palces I'm sure will surface now that there is free money on the table) my job search is getting more difficult by the day.
Merry f-ing Christmas you greedy f&*kers.
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You can't absolve the strawberry picker of any responsibility but probably wasn't sophisticated enough when a mortgage broker was telling him he could do it.
Another example:
Another example:
Maybe she should have known better than to expect the easy money would always be there. But temptation may be too hard to resist.Next, the baby nurse he’d hired back in 1997 to take care of his newborn twin daughters phoned him. “She was this lovely woman from Jamaica,” he says. “One day she calls me and says she and her sister own five townhouses in Queens. I said, ‘How did that happen?’ ” It happened because after they bought the first one and its value rose, the lenders came and suggested they refinance and take out $250,000, which they used to buy another one. Then the price of that one rose too, and they repeated the experiment. “By the time they were done,” Eisman says, “they owned five of them, the market was falling, and they couldn’t make any of the payments.”
- pk500
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Caveat emptor.wco81 wrote:You can't absolve the strawberry picker of any responsibility but probably wasn't sophisticated enough when a mortgage broker was telling him he could do it.
Another example:
Maybe she should have known better than to expect the easy money would always be there. But temptation may be too hard to resist.Next, the baby nurse he’d hired back in 1997 to take care of his newborn twin daughters phoned him. “She was this lovely woman from Jamaica,” he says. “One day she calls me and says she and her sister own five townhouses in Queens. I said, ‘How did that happen?’ ” It happened because after they bought the first one and its value rose, the lenders came and suggested they refinance and take out $250,000, which they used to buy another one. Then the price of that one rose too, and they repeated the experiment. “By the time they were done,” Eisman says, “they owned five of them, the market was falling, and they couldn’t make any of the payments.”
Take care,
PK
"You know why I love boxers? I love them because they face fear. And they face it alone." - Nick Charles
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
XBL Gamertag: pk4425
"First on the throttle, last on the brakes." - @MotoGP Twitter signature
XBL Gamertag: pk4425
Barney Frank said today"If you can't get behind the auto bailout,then your not behind the Middle Class". I wonder how many "Middle Class" folks can relate to this bullshit.

The CEOs of the big three automakers flew to the nation's capital yesterday in private luxurious jets to make their case to Washington that the auto industry is running out of cash and needs $25 billion in taxpayer money to avoid bankruptcy.
The CEOs of GM, Ford and Chrysler may have told Congress that they will likely go out of business without a bailout yet that has not stopped them from traveling in style, not even First Class is good enough.
All three CEOs -- Rick Wagoner of GM, Alan Mulally of Ford, and Robert Nardelli of Chrysler -- exercised their perks Tuesday by flying in corporate jets to DC. Wagoner flew in GM's $36 million luxury aircraft to tell members of Congress that the company is burning through cash, asking for $10-12 billion for GM alone.

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I think Frank's statement is because of the ramifications of the Big Three going down. I think estimates are that if they go belly up, there would be about a million jobs affected (possibly lost) by it, which is huge considering we're already in a recession. And those affected directly would primarily be the middle class.
Even more coin going Citi's way. Because the first $25 billion from the bailout did so much to help.
"The flurry of activity by Bush, which had not been announced in advance, came the morning after the government's agreement to shoulder hundreds of billions of dollars in possible losses at Citigroup and to plow a fresh $20 billion into the troubled company."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... lson_N.htm
"The flurry of activity by Bush, which had not been announced in advance, came the morning after the government's agreement to shoulder hundreds of billions of dollars in possible losses at Citigroup and to plow a fresh $20 billion into the troubled company."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... lson_N.htm
Well took a chance on C on Friday and turned it around for something like a 80% gain this morning.
Problem with Citi is that they're facing the prospect of hundreds of billions in credit card defaults.
Stock market troubles has just crushed confidence everywhere. Banks and consumers are clutching their purse strings more tightly and companies are doing preemptive layoffs.
Things are bad but pessimism is feeding the descent.
There are no good answers for the Big 3 but the Heritage and AEI types are still arguing for a hands-off policy.
That ship sailed a long time ago.
Problem with Citi is that they're facing the prospect of hundreds of billions in credit card defaults.
Stock market troubles has just crushed confidence everywhere. Banks and consumers are clutching their purse strings more tightly and companies are doing preemptive layoffs.
Things are bad but pessimism is feeding the descent.
There are no good answers for the Big 3 but the Heritage and AEI types are still arguing for a hands-off policy.
That ship sailed a long time ago.
- TheHiddenTrack
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This is kind of like a class but you'll learn the basics ($99): http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescL ... px?cid=550matthewk wrote:Anyone have any reccomendations on a good entry level economics book? I'm not looking to take up any classes or get a degree, just looking for a good read that will help me get a better handle on the subject.
And here's a free download of his book, Principles of Economics: http://www.freeloadpress.com/bookDetail.aspx?bId=1079
Obama's economic team gets a good early review from The Economist:
http://www.economist.com/world/unitedst ... d=12685546
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http://www.economist.com/world/unitedst ... d=12685546
Mr Obama’s policies may not be any more successful at combating the financial crisis and recession than those of George Bush. But it does seem safe to say that economics will play a bigger part in the formation of those policies. Three of the first four members of the team to be named are well-regarded PhD-holding economists and the fourth, Tim Geithner, the new treasury secretary, is a respected central banker (he heads the Federal Reserve Bank of New York). Only one of the four people they will replace shares a comparable background (see chart).
They are not just any economists but among the best. “Their IQs are off the chart,” gushes a former colleague of some of them. Henry Kissinger supposedly once said every president should give Larry Summers an office in the White House. On November 24th Mr Obama did. As director of his National Economic Council (NEC), Mr Summers “will be by my side, playing the critical role of co-ordinating my administration’s economic policy”.
It is a striking contrast with the outgoing administration, in which economists never had much clout. Consider the Office of Management and Budget director, who as overseer of $3 trillion in federal spending plays a pivotal role in setting economic priorities. Mr Bush has had four: one was a pharmaceuticals executive, one did government relations for an investment bank, and two were congressmen. All four trained as lawyers. Mr Obama’s nominee, Peter Orszag, the outgoing director of the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, is a professional economist known for such page-turners as “Saving Social Security”, a 300-page tome boasting 37 pages of footnotes and eight appendices.
The team’s other striking feature is its centrism. Mr Summers is on the conservative wing of Democratic economists. As Mr Clinton’s treasury secretary he backed the law that in 1999 tore down barriers between commercial and investment banks and still backs it despite recent criticism. Christina Romer, an economic historian from Berkeley, has just published a paper with her husband David showing how raising taxes retards growth. Jason Furman, likely to be named as an aide to Mr Summers, outraged unions for his 2005 article, “Wal-Mart: A Progressive Success Story”. One hedge-fund manager who, before the election, was terrified Mr Obama would usher in “confiscatory” tax policies breathed a sigh of relief. “No Robert Reichs,” he said, a reference to the leftish adviser who was Mr Clinton’s labour secretary. “There’s no radicals in the whole cabinet that anyone can find.”
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So, automaker bailout next week? I was, and am still firmly against, the bailout of the financial sector. So far I haven't seen compelling evidence that any good has come of it (and potentially some stuff for the worse has).
I'm a free market guy, but this one has me leaning towards loans for the auto industry. Bankruptcy really isn't an option. No one will buy a car from a manufacturer who files for bankruptcy since it looks like the writing is on the wall that the company won't be around. Perception is reality, and bankruptcy would initiate a death spiral for an automotive company in my opinion. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but it will be made less bitter if Congress has the balls to get the UAW to give up many of the ridiculous benefits union workers get. Give them the same treatment as you and I when it comes to healthcare costs, get rid of the ridiculous benefits for layed off workers, and my god $60k for assembly line work? The overall benefits is ridiculous (see http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf for example).
If there's a buyout, bust up the union and bring some sanity into this thing. No way relatively unskilled labor (just calling it like I see it) should have it this easy.
I'm a free market guy, but this one has me leaning towards loans for the auto industry. Bankruptcy really isn't an option. No one will buy a car from a manufacturer who files for bankruptcy since it looks like the writing is on the wall that the company won't be around. Perception is reality, and bankruptcy would initiate a death spiral for an automotive company in my opinion. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but it will be made less bitter if Congress has the balls to get the UAW to give up many of the ridiculous benefits union workers get. Give them the same treatment as you and I when it comes to healthcare costs, get rid of the ridiculous benefits for layed off workers, and my god $60k for assembly line work? The overall benefits is ridiculous (see http://chryslerlabortalks07.com/Economic_Data.rtf for example).
If there's a buyout, bust up the union and bring some sanity into this thing. No way relatively unskilled labor (just calling it like I see it) should have it this easy.
Supposedly, they have contracts already in place which come on line in 2010 or 2011 which are less generous. And the unions supposedly will take over the benefits for retirees.
But they had this in place before unit volume fell from 17 million to 10 million units.
Today, 533,000 job losses announced for November, the highest monthly number since 1974.
The financial bailout hasn't freed up the credit markets. The banks just took the money and sit on it or try to acquire other troubled institutions.
An idea that McCain floated, directly helping people underwater on their mortgages is being discussed more. The free market guys will have a fit over that one.
But nobody seems sure how to get out of this predicament.
But they had this in place before unit volume fell from 17 million to 10 million units.
Today, 533,000 job losses announced for November, the highest monthly number since 1974.
The financial bailout hasn't freed up the credit markets. The banks just took the money and sit on it or try to acquire other troubled institutions.
An idea that McCain floated, directly helping people underwater on their mortgages is being discussed more. The free market guys will have a fit over that one.
But nobody seems sure how to get out of this predicament.
- matthewk
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I like Bush's suggestions the best so far. Let them use the $25 billion that's already been approved, even though that was meant to get them into more fuel efficient cars. If they do get some other money, they should be reqwuired to pay it back. Of course if they end up in this same situation 6 months from now after getting billions (which is a likely scenario), how will they be able to pay back the loan?
Our problems will not end even if we do give away money we don't have to the big 3. If hey give them money, will Toyota and Honda then come knocking since their sales are also down 40%? Or next in ilne might be the states, who are billions short in their own budgets.
Where the f&*k does the government think all this money is going to come from? We are broke as a country right now, and they keep putting stuff on our tab. At least Obama is concentrating on a real cure: creating jobs, while Paulson, Bernanke and co. only seem to want to get things "back to the way they were".
It's all very frustrating right now. Our company is scaling back and cancelling Christmas parties. Our department will begin the outsourcing process right after we get back from the break, so a lot of us (like 80% of our staff) will be looking for jobs in this crappy climate. Meanwhile, the rich at the fincancial institutions and auto company execs will still be getting their millions regardless.
Our problems will not end even if we do give away money we don't have to the big 3. If hey give them money, will Toyota and Honda then come knocking since their sales are also down 40%? Or next in ilne might be the states, who are billions short in their own budgets.
Where the f&*k does the government think all this money is going to come from? We are broke as a country right now, and they keep putting stuff on our tab. At least Obama is concentrating on a real cure: creating jobs, while Paulson, Bernanke and co. only seem to want to get things "back to the way they were".
It's all very frustrating right now. Our company is scaling back and cancelling Christmas parties. Our department will begin the outsourcing process right after we get back from the break, so a lot of us (like 80% of our staff) will be looking for jobs in this crappy climate. Meanwhile, the rich at the fincancial institutions and auto company execs will still be getting their millions regardless.
-Matt
Incredible. Just incredible. AIG employees getting "retention awards" ranging from $92k to $4 million.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... A&refer=us
The bailout has been a flop and complete waste of money.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... A&refer=us
The bailout has been a flop and complete waste of money.
- matthewk
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They complained that if they declared bankruptcy that no one would buy their cars. How many people are going to feel inclined to buy them now that they are taking a huge bailout? Oh, and it's only bailout installment plan #1 too. Once BO and the new congress gets in office there will be more money coming their way.
Nothing has changed in the way commerce works in this country. The rich just found a new way to screw over the everyday taxpayer. First Wall Street, then the Big 3. Tomorrow it will be someone else in line for a handout.....oh wait, there already is. The states (like mine) that can't balance their budgets are now coming to Washington looking for money.
Nothing has changed in the way commerce works in this country. The rich just found a new way to screw over the everyday taxpayer. First Wall Street, then the Big 3. Tomorrow it will be someone else in line for a handout.....oh wait, there already is. The states (like mine) that can't balance their budgets are now coming to Washington looking for money.
-Matt
Not one Washington lawmaker has had the guts to address the underlying problem and is the reason I am totally against the auto bailout. High UAW labor cost have crippled the big three. It's hurt their R&D when they have to dole out so much money to pay their labor costs. It's another reason why they went after the SUV market because that's where they make the most profit.
It's kinda amusing that none of the Japanese auto companies building cars in the US, want anything to do with the UAW realizing it's a big reason why the Japanese automakers are in a better position business wise over their American counterparts.
It's kinda amusing that none of the Japanese auto companies building cars in the US, want anything to do with the UAW realizing it's a big reason why the Japanese automakers are in a better position business wise over their American counterparts.

I saw a Nevada senator on TV this morning still talking about bankruptcy.
Sounds like they're looking to filibuster.
The economic forecasts for next year look gloomy, even without the added loss of big layoffs in the auto industry.
Here's one columnist making the case for the US auto industry.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228876 ... mod=djemPJ
Sounds like they're looking to filibuster.
The economic forecasts for next year look gloomy, even without the added loss of big layoffs in the auto industry.
Here's one columnist making the case for the US auto industry.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228876 ... mod=djemPJ
I agree with you and Rodster 100%.XXXIV wrote:Give these morons money and you are just delaying bankruptcy for a couple of years.
The piece of s*** that is the UAW will still be there.
Cant cure syphillis with gonorrhea.
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I say 6 months and they're back begging for more money. I read an article on Drudge Report and it basically said the reason why the UAW is behind the Washington bailout is because if the Big Three go bankrupt then every contract is up for renegotiation. So the Union fears having it's members losing all of their entitlements including their 60K per year for their assembly line workers.XXXIV wrote:Give these morons money and you are just delaying bankruptcy for a couple of years.