Racing Sim Thread, Part II

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:27 pm

pk500 wrote: That's realistic. You never lift at Indy in the current generation of IndyCar when running alone with a proper setup.

The current generation of IndyCars have a TON of downforce, even at Indy. Too much for a 670-horsepower engine, in my opinion.

Take care,
PK

ORLY

I didn't know that. Hey PK can you suggest some Indycar tracks?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:41 pm

My faves:

Oval
Indy
Texas
Chicagoland
Richmond
Milwaukee

Road
Watkins Glen GP Circuit
Mid-Ohio No Chicane
Long Beach

Take care,
PK

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:13 pm

pk500 wrote:My faves:

Oval
Indy
Texas
Chicagoland
Richmond
Milwaukee

Road
Watkins Glen GP Circuit
Mid-Ohio No Chicane
Long Beach

Take care,
PK

Are these your favorites in rFactor, or your favorites in real life (or both)? I am in the process of making a list with links of all the rFactor tracks that are available for the 2008-2009 Indycar schedules, and there are a few that I don't think exist. One of them being Milwaukee. I also can't seem to find an Infineon that is not the Cup version. Toronto, Iowa and Edmonton exist, but in pretty raw formats and I don't know that any of the street circuits are actually the same as their current real life counterparts.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:34 pm

Real life, Don. But all of those ovals exist in rFactor through various track packs (JNS, etc.), and excellent versions of Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio and Long Beach also are available on rFactor Central.

VLN's Mid-Ohio might be my favorite rFactor track overall, and IDT's new 2007 version of Long Beach also is lovely.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:14 pm

pk500 wrote:IDT's new 2007 version of Long Beach also is lovely.

Seconded. One of my favourites, that track. Speaking of tracks, PK, here's one for your inner Geordie:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=Newcastle

Rod, I tried to download the CTDP 2006 F1 mod last night and couldn't find a link that worked, so I'm giving it another bash tonight. The cars of 2006 did have an awful lot of grip so I'm not too alarmed by the idea of there being plenty on offer, but at the same time I'd quite like to feel like I'm driving a thoroughbred racer so I shall download expecting a little disappointment.

I'm still not wholly in love with the new Indy mod, for much the same reasons as Rod's not feeling CTDP; it might well be a perfect representation of driving an IndyCar but it doesn't look quite as easy on the television as the mod makes it seem. I did, though, have a lot of fun lose-and-catching my way around the wet Portland (Vanport) layout yesterday, and they'll be staying on my install.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:50 pm

Simo:

Grabbed that track as soon as I saw it, mate. I'll need to rely on your local knowledge to verify the accuracy!

I hope to try the IndyCar Series and F1 2006 mods tonight. Don't sell yourself short, Simo, if you think the mod is easier than how the real series appears on TV. I've raced with you; you're already probably at an equal or higher skill level than Marty Roth or Milka Duno.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:06 pm

GB_Simo wrote:
Rod, I tried to download the CTDP 2006 F1 mod last night and couldn't find a link that worked, so I'm giving it another bash tonight.

Adam try this link it worked me.

http://www.cg-cars.com/downloads/Formul ... TDP_v1.zip

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:52 pm

Well I gave the Indycar mod another try on the LB course and it's all good. The cars and LB (IDT) track look awesome. I love the sound of the cars from the cockpit view.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:48 pm

Rod, the sg-it-consulting.de link worked a bit faster for me than the one you gave me, but thanks, it's appreciated. After some hours of downloading, the mod made it to me about twenty seconds before my connection disappeared.

I wasn't impressed when I had to raise the Ferrari seat 20 clicks from default just so I could see where the corners were, but things picked up a bit once I could identify where I was going. The cars aren't any great challenge under power but they're lively little buggers under braking if you push them hard. It's not set my world aflame yet, mind, but it's alright. Huge install, though, and I've not had a look through the upgrades and skins to see if anything there justifies it.

PK, having run the same IndyCars at the same Long Beach as Rod and had the same amount of fun, I'm somewhat embarrassed to report that having qualified on pole and recovered from a duff start to win against the AI (yes, definitely more talented than Milka), I managed to rip the front off my car trying to drive onto the winner's podium (on second thoughts, maybe there are things she can teach me yet). I may be being a bit too critical of the IndyCar mod; yes, there are many tracks where the grip is astounding and the car gives no sense of being a high-powered racing machine, but at Indy and on the street circuits closer to their natural habitat, they're good fun.

The Newcastle track is accurate enough to get along with, the trackside advertising has such a north-east slant that I feel at home driving the circuit, and it's a driving challenge, but I struggle to imagine a race there. There's not all that much scope to create a workable racetrack in Newcastle, really, given that much of the city centre is a narrow one-way system. A British street circuit that they really did race on in the mid-80s, that's somehow passed me by until tonight on rFactor Central and which I now recommend heartily to those who like their street circuits wide, fast and easy to learn, is the Birmingham Superprix layout.

One more: this Formula 5000 mod might well be one to watch when it's completed. The Alpha, while far from perfect, shows plenty of potential.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:55 pm

I checked the folder for the mod and it comes in at a whopping 3.76GB. The majority of it is for the vehicles with the Super Aguri cars coming in at around 700MB.

The more i've played it the more I like it but your right it's difficult to see the corners from the default seat height. I'm liking the Indycar mod a little more right now. The one thing the F1 2006 mod has going for it is the high farmerate. No FPS stuttering or hiccups.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:36 pm

Tried three new mods last night. Initial impressions:

IndyCar Series 2008:

I need to find a handful of synonyms for "disappointment," as the letdown from this mod is major.

It's odd: Most of you cats think this mod has too much grip. I'm finding the exact opposite. This mod suffers from the dreaded rFactor "black ice" handling syndrome as much as any I've driven when using RealFeel.

The car steps out, broadslides and/or understeers at just about any time. You must feather the brakes entering the braking zone like you're trying to put a jack boot atop an egg without cracking the shell.

This mod supposedly is compatible with RealFeel, but the supplied settings are horrible. There's no suspension feel, no sense of weight to the car and no sense of grip. It wasn't much better with steering rack force data gleaned from MoTeC, either.

The creators of the 2007 edition of this mod insisted that the later editions of that mod were RealFeel compatible when they weren't. Since some of this mod team either comes from or has worked with iDT, I'm not surprised of their lack of understanding of RealFeel. None of iDT's Champ Car, Toyota Atlantic or Formula BMW mods ever has been properly built for true RealFeel compatibility.

I drove this car in default setups in road course trim at Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio and Oulton Park, and the lack of grip was pronounced. I also took it for a spin in oval trim at Indy, and the car was terribly unstable and slow.

Maybe patches or better setups will help me with this mod, but I'm not feeling it at all. Very, very disappointing, a step backward from the 2007 mod. It's heading for a quick uninstall from my rFactor directory.

CTDP F1 2006:

Everything about this mod screams quality. The interface. The car models. The tuning options. The physics model.

I love this mod, and I think it's superior to the prior F1 benchmark for rFactor, the 2007 BMW Sauber by ISI. Both mods have similar, very nice physics models. But I think this mod has a better tire model that lets you dance at the edge of grip and catch slides better than the Sauber, and it has FAR better RealFeel compatibility, which is vital for me.

Not much else to say about this mod. I love it, and I want to drive it often and try to learn how to tame these beasts.

I only have two quibbles. I don't care for the revised HUD interface that this mod uses. I can't stand when modding groups plant a new HUD into the game, which then sticks around for any subsequent mods you play during that rFactor session.

Plus, the seating position seems quite low, at least in the Renault and Williams I drove. Any kind of tight steering raises the wheel directly in your line of sight, which seems unrealistic.

Small stuff, though. This mod is quality.

F1 Stockcars:

A stock car mod finally made the rFactor Hall of Fame, so I had to check these out. They're sort of like a hybrid between a NASCAR modified and a winged sprint car and race on short shale and dirt ovals in the UK.

These babies are beasts on the available UK ovals, which are short and very tight. There's way too much car available for these tracks, but that makes driving these things very, very challenging and fun.

Tons of power, not much downforce and twitchy as hell. Great RealFeel support, too, a rarity in any rFactor oval racing mod.

It all leads to a pretty wild ride that would be really fun in an online race. I don't have much desire to race the AI or hot-lap these things, but they would be really fun with a DSP Poker Night and are worthy of their Hall of Fame status.

I see where a revised version of the Japan F3 mod has been released. Need to try that one, as the prior version was the best of the F3 mods available for rFactor.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:00 pm

pk500 wrote:IndyCar Series 2008:

It's odd: Most of you cats think this mod has too much grip. I'm finding the exact opposite. This mod suffers from the dreaded rFactor "black ice" handling syndrome as much as any I've driven when using RealFeel.

The car steps out, broadslides and/or understeers at just about any time. You must feather the brakes entering the braking zone like you're trying to put a jack boot atop an egg without cracking the shell.

That really is strange. I can say quite honestly that there are few mods that inspire more confidence on the brakes using Leo's than the IndyCar Series 2008 mod. Watkins Glen is a track that's given me some trouble (is it the three-layout Glen that you've got? If not, what I'm about to say is useless) but my experience of that place with other mods, even the grippy little Fabcars, is that that version of the track has very low grip at the best of times. Everywhere else, the car behaves itself as long as I'm not being a hooligan with it, and when it does step out of line Leo's lets me know about it.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:06 pm

Yep, I'm using the three-layout Glen. And this mod is giving me a complete "black ice" feeling under braking or any kind of fast cornering with RealFeel.

Again, this mod and the iDT family of mods from which it's derived never have worked a damn with RealFeel. So I assume that trend continues with this mod.

A shame, because the liveries look great. But I refuse to drive a mod that doesn't work well with RealFeel. I even returned to Leo's for a bit last week to see if I can cope with that for mods that don't work with RealFeel. Nope. Can't deal with it, especially after driving Live For Speed.

I can tell when a mod is designed for RealFeel almost by feel these days, since I've driven nearly every mod designed for it and also have tested so many mods with MoTeC to get accurate steering rack force data for RealFeel. On first drive, CTDP F1 2006 felt just right; ICS 2008 felt completely off.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:25 pm

I'm really digging the new Indycar mod. The cars look awesome and the Long Beach track is out of this world. I do agree with PK re the slippery feel to the cars. I only notice them on road courses. Where I find them more behaved is at Indy.

The F1 2006 mod has grown on me as well. The cars are very difficult to control whereas I find the 2007 ISI mod much easier to control the cars.

Question how much space did the F1 2006 mod take up on your hard drive? It takes up around 4.5GB of disk space on my rig.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:58 pm

Rodster wrote:I'm really digging the new Indycar mod. The cars look awesome and the Long Beach track is out of this world. I do agree with PK re the slippery feel to the cars. I only notice them on road courses. Where I find them more behaved is at Indy.

The F1 2006 mod has grown on me as well. The cars are very difficult to control whereas I find the 2007 ISI mod much easier to control the cars.

Woah there, fella...a few posts ago both of those mods were too simplistic. What happened to change your view?

CTDP takes a bit of driving, but I'm beginning to wonder if we've not accidentally downloaded two different IndyCar mods.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:20 pm

I'm going to give the low-res IndyCar mod a try. Doubt it makes any difference in handling, but I could use the extra frames.

Sadly, I fear the bottom line will be that this mod is a no-go for me because of poor RealFeel compatibility.

CTDP F1 2006, on the other hand, rivals the Historic GT & Touring and Caterham mods for sublime RealFeel feel.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:33 pm

GB_Simo wrote: Woah there, fella...a few posts ago both of those mods were too simplistic. What happened to change your view?

CTDP takes a bit of driving, but I'm beginning to wonder if we've not accidentally downloaded two different IndyCar mods.

Well PK educated me on how modern Indycars drive at Indy. The F1 2006 has humbled me trying to get to grips with a modern F1 car. When I compared it to ISI's mod I find the F1 2006 mod cars more demanding.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:57 pm

Well, tried the low-res version of IndyCar Series 2008 tonight, which solved one problem and did nothing to solve another.

I have better framerates. I also have zero feel for the tires and suspension travel when using this mod with RealFeel on road and street courses. It feels like I'm driving on air or ice.

This mod is a no-go for me. I don't want to spend time trying to massage a mod into something I want to drive, even if the series depicted interests me greatly. There are too many other good rFactor mods, Live For Speed and even iRacing to drive.

Enjoy this mod, boys. It's doing nothing for me other than pissing me off.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:48 am

I took the Indycars out at Watkins Glen (no chicane) and absolutely found no slippery/ice feeling PK is referring to. I was able to do a 1:34:840 in the NH McDonald's car.

Long beach is another matter. I'm not sure if it's a setup problem or the track but i'm all over the place at LB. I'm not as familiar with the LB track as I am with WG.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:51 am

Rodster wrote:I took the Indycars out at Watkins Glen (no chicane) and absolutely found no slippery/ice feeling PK is referring to. I was able to do a 1:34:840 in the NH McDonald's car.

Are you using RealFeel? If so, what settings?

Thanks,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:16 am

Logitech Rumblepad 2

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:40 pm

Rodster wrote:Logitech Rumblepad 2

Dude, we need to get a Rodster wheel fund going.

Paul, you are the RealFeel master and thanks for all the feedback on the recent mods. Dissappointing news once again on the Indycar mod. I was so looking forward to Indy 1995 and Indy 2008 mods this year. I will admit that I have yet to try out either of them.

This is a question/comment for the group regarding force feedback in rFactor, realfeel, Leos, etc.

First, I have been using a Logitech Momo Red for over 6 years now as my main wheel. As far as I can tell, it still functions as it should. However, after going through a complete re-install to rFactor, Live for Speed, GTR2, Grand Prix Legends, etc. over the last few months, I just don't ever experience the extra benefits in RealFeel or Leo's. Likewise, the force feedback in iRacing is just "ok", even though I see many reputable folks who I have trusted for many years going on about how great it is, even compared to the best RealFeel mods. In rFactor I have basically gone back to the stock forcefeedback, as at least it gives me consistent performance across most mods. My questions/theories are:

1) Maybe my old Logitech MOMO red just can't handle the subtleties of RealFeel, Leo's or the stock forcefeedback of GTR 2 and iRacing in a way that I can truly feel it in the virtual car?

2) Could it be that I just don't know what I am doing and have never found the best RealFeel or Leo's settings for my particular wheel?

3) Or maybe more likely, could it be that I am just too much of a simpleton when it comes to racing sims that I just don't detect the difference between stock canned force feedback effects and the glory of RealFeel or Leos with the best mods?

It's gotten to the point where I just stopped messing with it because I have spent more time in the last few months getting my PCs working (unrelated issue) and tweaking settings, re-installing mods, etc. than I have racing. This frustration is also what led to my purchase of an Xbox 360 in the hopes of getting back to enjoyment of gaming (this was a bad decision by the way, but that's another story

)

Anyway, being the racing sim freak that I am, I can't help but feel that I am still missing the most of what I could be experiencing by not getting this forcefeedback working properly, so I am back to trying it one more time as I am a glutton for punishment. Anyway, I guess this is more rambling than any actual questions, but I am going to start with the stock FF on both the CTDP and Indycar mods, and then go from there.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:03 pm

I tired of messing with all of these new rFactor mods, especially the disappointing IndyCar Series 2008 mod, and I returned to my trusty Live For Speed. And I ended up setting a personal best in the Formula BMW at Blackwood GP -- 1:15.84.

Woo-hoo! Didn't think I'd ever break that 1:16 barrier. Could 1:14's be next? Awhile, for sure.

LFS never fails to satisfy me.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:15 pm

DChaps wrote:3) Or maybe more likely, could it be that I am just too much of a simpleton when it comes to racing sims that I just don't detect the difference between stock canned force feedback effects and the glory of RealFeel or Leos with the best mods?

It's gotten to the point where I just stopped messing with it because I have spent more time in the last few months getting my PCs working (unrelated issue) and tweaking settings, re-installing mods, etc. than I have racing. This frustration is also what led to my purchase of an Xbox 360 in the hopes of getting back to enjoyment of gaming (this was a bad decision by the way, but that's another story

Thought I hadn't seen your Gamertag for a while, mate...

It'll take more than your suggestion to make me believe you're a racing sim simpleton, but you might be halfway there. One of the things that doesn't always come across, and that takes me by surprise a lot of the time, is that these effects you'll catch PK raving about are often very, very subtle. If I'm ever on here eulogising about mods working brilliantly with Leo's (stock Leo's; for what it's worth, I don't have the time or strength for mod-specific tweaks at the minute) it's because it allows me to feel what the cars are doing and correct their behaviour without having to think about it, or without having to concentrate on the audio visual cues that show I'm losing control. Really good FFB, to me, is a lot like a good sports referee, in that it does its work without you being completely aware of it.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:17 pm

Rodster wrote:I took the Indycars out at Watkins Glen (no chicane) and absolutely found no slippery/ice feeling PK is referring to. I was able to do a 1:34:840 in the NH McDonald's car.

Long beach is another matter. I'm not sure if it's a setup problem or the track but i'm all over the place at LB. I'm not as familiar with the LB track as I am with WG.

Weird. It's the polar opposite with Leo's and a G25. Long Beach has the grip, Watkins Glen doesn't. I'm going to have to dig my wheel out and pop a couple of quick ones in with the McDonald's car to see what that's all about. I'll report back in a bit, because I want to try to understand why we're having two different experiences with it.