OT: Elections/Politics thread, part 5

[matthewk]

Except the second isn't happening.

Have any proof of that?

[matthewk]

Except the second isn't happening.

I recommend google for you, too.

Voter fraud isn't happening. That facts are against you there.

What facts? Your unquestionable word?

It HAS happened. That is a fact. What no one knows is how widespread it is.

[RobVarak]

Huh? ACORN workers have been convicted of falsifying registrations and submitting multiple registrations in several states and indicted and plead out in even more.

Clarification needed: There is no evidence that ACORN as an organization is doing these things, as in many of those cases ACORN the organization has turned in the workers that have been indicted. There is ample evidence that people working for ACORN have falsified registrations, submitted registrations for multiple people, etc.

There is talk of a RICO indictment for ACORN (or at least some of its subsidiary organizations), which would definitely seem warranted at this point. I suspect it's only a matter of time before one of the US attorneys offices connects enough dots to get an indictment.

Basic agency theory and common sense both dictate that ACORN is at some level responsible for this behavior though, as Naples pointed out either intentionally or negligently. I think given their compensation structure, there's a solid argument to be made that they're enticing their employees and sub-K's to commit the fraud.

[matthewk]

http://www.gop.com/Wisconsin.htm

Read the paragraph for 03.05.08. Convicted of vote fraud. Care to retract your statment now, JRod? Wait, of course not. There is sure to be some lame excuse like the jury was rigged or he was framed by the cops.

[FatPitcher]

I recommend google for you, too.

If I google ufo abduction accounts, I might get a whole slew of information of stories of this happening. Doesn't mean that it happened. It would be much better to present the actual evidence of voter fraud that JRod is asking for.

Go back and check what "the second" refers to.

[matthewk]

Clarification needed: There is no evidence that Bush is doing these things. There is ample evidence that people working for Bush have falsified ...., etc.

Is it still ok now?

[FatPitcher]

http://www.gop.com/Wisconsin.htm

Read the paragraph for 03.05.08. Convicted of vote fraud. Care to retract your statment now, JRod? Wait, of course not. There is sure to be some lame excuse like the jury was rigged or he was framed by the cops.

I'll handle this one.

Your source is biased! And here is some info from mediamatters.org backing me up!

[Jared]

I recommend google for you, too.

If I google ufo abduction accounts, I might get a whole slew of information of stories of this happening. Doesn't mean that it happened. It would be much better to present the actual evidence of voter fraud that JRod is asking for.

Go back and check what "the second" refers to.

Oops. I thought JRod meant the first when mentioning the second. (I think my JRod interpretation filter was on...). My bad.

[Jared]

First, let me agree with MattK and others. There have been cases of voter fraud. The question is how much voter fraud is there, and it's important to minimize voter fraud, voter intimidation, etc.

With that said...

I'll handle this one.

Your source is biased! And here is some info from mediamatters.org backing me up!

Sigh. If anyone quotes something from mediamatters.org, does that invalidate what they say?

[JRod]

If I google ufo abduction accounts, I might get a whole slew of information of stories of this happening. Doesn't mean that it happened. It would be much better to present the actual evidence of voter fraud that JRod is asking for.

Go back and check what "the second" refers to.

Oops. I thought JRod meant the first when mentioning the second. (I think my JRod interpretation filter was on...). My bad.

I thought I typed them sequentially, voter registration fraud then voter fraud. But I transposed them.

Still I refered to voter fraud and I posted a second post to clarify. There is no evidence that voter fraud is happening. You don't have any. If you want to post some from a non-partisian source or a legitimate news site, please do.

There are built in safegaurds before a registration card turns into voter fraud. Sometimes it's not fraud it's just too many groups trying to register people to vote. So you could have one person trying to legitimately register and fills out too many forms. That's up to the clerk to determine. That person would still only get one vote.

The mickey mouse registration forms, do not get entered. Most states now require a form of ID to register to vote. Some states have made it harder to vote, because of new requirements in HAVA (Have America Vote Act).

What should be more worrying is not if groups improperly sign people up to vote. Again, MattK doesn't acknowlege that it was ACORN the discovered the problem and turn themselves in. And while you can assert that no one knows how widespread the problem is, that assumption isn't based on fact. It may not be widespread. Studies done in the past have shown that actual voter fraud is rarer then the some make it out to be. The reason why the numbers are so low is due to safegaurds built in to prevent voter registration turning into voter fraud.

[JRod]

Voter fraud does happen but not as widespread nor as aggregious as you make it out to be....

http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/

[Feanor]

There certainly were many shenanigans in Ohio in 2004.

There's dozens more you can learn about in here, all sourced.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/ ... ion_stolen

The reports were especially disturbing in Ohio, the critical battleground state that clinched Bush's victory in the electoral college. Officials there purged tens of thousands of eligible voters from the rolls, neglected to process registration cards generated by Democratic voter drives, shortchanged Democratic precincts when they allocated voting machines and illegally derailed a recount that could have given Kerry the presidency. A precinct in an evangelical church in Miami County recorded an impossibly high turnout of ninety-eight percent, while a polling place in inner-city Cleveland recorded an equally impossible turnout of only seven percent. In Warren County, GOP election officials even invented a nonexistent terrorist threat to bar the media from monitoring the official vote count.

[Naples39]

There certainly were many shenanigans in Ohio in 2004.

There's dozens more you can learn about in here, all sourced.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/ ... ion_stolen

The reports were especially disturbing in Ohio, the critical battleground state that clinched Bush's victory in the electoral college. Officials there purged tens of thousands of eligible voters from the rolls, neglected to process registration cards generated by Democratic voter drives, shortchanged Democratic precincts when they allocated voting machines and illegally derailed a recount that could have given Kerry the presidency. A precinct in an evangelical church in Miami County recorded an impossibly high turnout of ninety-eight percent, while a polling place in inner-city Cleveland recorded an equally impossible turnout of only seven percent. In Warren County, GOP election officials even invented a nonexistent terrorist threat to bar the media from monitoring the official vote count.

I'm glad to see the impeccable journalism of Rolling Stone return to the thread!!!

These Ohio fraud claims from Dems are nothing new, here or elsewhere. As a Kerry supporter in 2004 and a Gore supporter in 2000, trust me, there is nothing I would've liked more than for them to have found fraud in Ohio and given the election to Kerry, but there's just not enough solid evidence.

Also, not having a 2nd Bush term would've made it highly unlikely that a commie pink-o like Obama would be the Dem nominee in 2008.

[RobVarak]

There is no evidence that voter fraud is happening. You don't have any. If you want to post some from a non-partisian source or a legitimate news site, please do.

Voter fraud does happen but not as widespread nor as aggregious as you make it out to be....

http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/

[JRod]

Is there widespread evidence that voter fraud is currently happening? Problem is claiming voter fraud now is more of vote suppression than actual voter fraud.

Voter registration fraud is a problem. But with many miss with the Acorn case, is that Obama's campaign has registered more than Acorn.

But then again, I should have just posted a smiley becuase that's what we do here at DSP.

[RobVarak]

Is there widespread evidence that voter fraud is currently happening? Problem is claiming voter fraud now is more of vote suppression than actual voter fraud.

Voter registration fraud is a problem. But with many miss with the Acorn case, is that Obama's campaign has registered more than Acorn.

But then again, I should have just posted a smiley becuase that's what we do here at DSP.

I don't think it calls for any legendary feats of logic to conclude that given the fact that there has been some voter fraud in every election, and the fact that there is evidence of registration fraud in this election it is quite likely that voter fraud is going on right now in states with early and absentee balloting and will be going on when Nov. 4 comes around.

As lawyers and judges say to juries all the time, demand evidence but don't leave your common sense at the courtroom door.

Voter suppression is deplorable, but it's an independent problem. It's based in part of the perception of voter fraud, but fixing one isn't totally dependent on fixing the other.

Saying that we should overlook or excuse voter or registration fraud in the effort to avoid suppressing legitimate votes is like saying that we shouldn't put out a fire down the block because someone might want to drink that water instead.

[Teal]

Registration fraud is meaningless. It's still going to take a voter to risk committing a felony to vote under false pretenses.

Right-wing screeching over nefarious doings in Ohio (where Freddie Johnson of Cleveland testified that ACORN encouraged him to sign 73 voter-registration forms—all in his own name) overlooks the fact that all 73 registrations would still have allowed Freddie to vote just once. The connection between wrongful voter registration and actual polling-place vote fraud is the stuff of GOP mythology. As Rick Hasen has demonstrated, here at Slate and elsewhere, even if Mr. Mouse is registered to vote, he still needs to show up at his polling place, provide a fake ID, and risk a felony conviction to do so.

Large-scale, coordinated vote stealing doesn't happen. The incentives—unlike the incentives for registration fraud—just aren't there. In an interview this week with Salon, Lorraine Minnite of Barnard College, who has studied vote fraud systematically, noted that "between 2002 to 2005 only one person was found guilty of registration fraud. Twenty others were found guilty of voting while ineligible and five were guilty of voting more than once. That's 26 criminal voters." Twenty-six criminal voters despite the fact that U.S. attorneys, like David Iglesias in New Mexico, were fired for searching high and low for vote-fraud cases to prosecute and coming up empty. Twenty-six criminal voters despite the fact that five days before the 2006 election, then-interim U.S. Attorney Bradley Schlozman exuberantly (and futilely) indicted four ACORN workers, even when Justice Department policy barred such prosecutions in the days before elections. RNC General Counsel Sean Cairncross has said he is unaware of a single improper vote cast because of bad cards submitted in the course of a voter-registration effort. Republican campaign consultant Royal Masset says, "n-person voter fraud is nonexistent. It doesn't happen, and ... makes no sense because who's going to take the risk of going to jail on something so blatant that maybe changes one vote?"

There is no such thing as vote fraud. The think tank created to peddle the epidemic has evaporated. A handful of cases have been prosecuted.

http://www.slate.com/id/2202428/

You're incredible, wco...you really are...

[Teal]

There's a difference between voter fraud and voter registration fraud.

And ACORN was the one that actually turned themselves in.

You can't have the first without the second.

And was that before or after they were raided by the FBI?

Except the second isn't happening.

That's because the county clerks or voting officers aren't going to allow it. That's their jobs regardless if they are democrats or republicans. Maybe some in this nation use it a seat to wield partisanship but since they have to be certified by the Secretaries of the various states, they would face legal action. This isn't not counting chads, or eliminating minorities off the voter rolls.

Voter fraud is serious and their are multiple checks in place to make sure this doesn't happen. Voter registration fraud is different. It was ACORN that alerted the officials that they had someone turning in multiple fake forms. And I think ACORN's system sends them through their own system to catch duplicates, which is where ACORN claims they caught this.

There is no widespread proof in this country of voter fraud. None. Believe what you want but the facts of voter fraud are not on your side here.

Hell even if this was Swift boats for McCain registering people, they still wouldn't be able to vote.

How about citing some proof so that we don't have to take your word for it...

[Teal]

But there's no evidence of ACORN trying to register fictitious voters and real voters multiple times.

Wow, did you seriously just write that?!? Wow...

[JRod]

Is there widespread evidence that voter fraud is currently happening? Problem is claiming voter fraud now is more of vote suppression than actual voter fraud.

Voter registration fraud is a problem. But with many miss with the Acorn case, is that Obama's campaign has registered more than Acorn.

But then again, I should have just posted a smiley becuase that's what we do here at DSP.

I don't think it calls for any legendary feats of logic to conclude that given the fact that there has been some voter fraud in every election, and the fact that there is evidence of registration fraud in this election it is quite likely that voter fraud is going on right now in states with early and absentee balloting and will be going on when Nov. 4 comes around.

Even you see the logical flaw in your statement.

Secondly, voter fraud in isolated, small instances is different from widespread voter fraud. And what is implied in the voter registration fraud cases is that it will translate into voter fraud.

The impact of registration fraud on the actual election is different than voter fraud and its impact on the election.

And note, that these news stories about registration fraud that has been caught. They should be prosecuted if the organization or individuals committed fraud. Granted you probably won't find successful registration fraud until after the election.

Then it's up for voter fraud to be committed. The studies show that voter fraud isn't widespread. And ACORN, Bush 2000, Kerry, swiftboats, Obama or any other group isn't involved in actual voter fraud. The numbers are so low that voter fraud doesn't impact outcomes.

The evidence shows that voter suppression effects outcomes of elections much more than voter fraud. Are they both wrong, yes. But this isn't an arguement that because voter fraud happens less is less wrong. It's just that the claim that voter registration fraud turns into voter fraud on a large scale (the more harmful aspect of the two types of fraud) is not statistically supported. Therefore the outcomes of election are not changed by voter fraud or voter registration fraud.

Once again, voter registration fraud has to turn into voter fraud for it to affect the outcome of an election.

[JRod]

You can't have the first without the second.

And was that before or after they were raided by the FBI?

Except the second isn't happening.

That's because the county clerks or voting officers aren't going to allow it. That's their jobs regardless if they are democrats or republicans. Maybe some in this nation use it a seat to wield partisanship but since they have to be certified by the Secretaries of the various states, they would face legal action. This isn't not counting chads, or eliminating minorities off the voter rolls.

Voter fraud is serious and their are multiple checks in place to make sure this doesn't happen. Voter registration fraud is different. It was ACORN that alerted the officials that they had someone turning in multiple fake forms. And I think ACORN's system sends them through their own system to catch duplicates, which is where ACORN claims they caught this.

There is no widespread proof in this country of voter fraud. None. Believe what you want but the facts of voter fraud are not on your side here.

Hell even if this was Swift boats for McCain registering people, they still wouldn't be able to vote.

How about citing some proof so that we don't have to take your word for it...

http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/

[Teal]

Except the second isn't happening.

That's because the county clerks or voting officers aren't going to allow it. That's their jobs regardless if they are democrats or republicans. Maybe some in this nation use it a seat to wield partisanship but since they have to be certified by the Secretaries of the various states, they would face legal action. This isn't not counting chads, or eliminating minorities off the voter rolls.

Voter fraud is serious and their are multiple checks in place to make sure this doesn't happen. Voter registration fraud is different. It was ACORN that alerted the officials that they had someone turning in multiple fake forms. And I think ACORN's system sends them through their own system to catch duplicates, which is where ACORN claims they caught this.

There is no widespread proof in this country of voter fraud. None. Believe what you want but the facts of voter fraud are not on your side here.

Hell even if this was Swift boats for McCain registering people, they still wouldn't be able to vote.

How about citing some proof so that we don't have to take your word for it...

http://www.truthaboutfraud.org/

Thanks.

[Jared]

But there's no evidence of ACORN trying to register fictitious voters and real voters multiple times.

Wow, did you seriously just write that?!? Wow...

http://digitalsportspage.com/modules.ph ... 596#257059

[Teal]

But there's no evidence of ACORN trying to register fictitious voters and real voters multiple times.

Wow, did you seriously just write that?!? Wow...

http://digitalsportspage.com/modules.ph ... 596#257059

They're playing CYA, Jared. Anyone can see that. Kind of like throwing your pastor of 20 years under the bus all the sudden...

[Feanor]

I'm glad to see the impeccable journalism of Rolling Stone return to the thread!!!

Like they're any less trustworthy than the conservative and liberal blogs that make up half the links in this thread. At least the article I linked to has footnotes so you can check the source of the claims made, sources like these:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 8&v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... s_b_ur_2_1

http://ohioelection2004.com/evidence.htm