OT: Elections/Politics thread, part 4

[Teal]

Man, one unexpected effect of last week's debate (watching tonight's debate): McCain is such a bright, intelligent, and well spoken guy. Then I thought about Palin last week with her dumb wink'n, u betchas, not answering questions, & such. The poor guy really deserves better. I felt bad for him tonight in that regard.

I was thinking the same thing about Biden...

[Teal]

And the winner of tonights debate is...






...Tom Brokaw. Easily the most engaging character on the stage tonight.

[bdunn13]

And the winner of tonights debate is...






...Tom Brokaw. Easily the most engaging character on the stage tonight.

I would say the winner is Bob Barr. There is no way I could vote for either of these two guys. Obama scares the hell out of me with his fiscal policies and socialized health care. If we get some sort of socialized health care we will be stuck with it forever just like we are with the Social Security pyramid scheme. No one in Washington has the balls to do the right thing and just get rid of SS.

McCain just pisses me off when he talks about wanting to bailout moronic people that buy a house they can't afford.

[Teal]

I tell you what...I hate how these media nuts keep interviewing 'talking pointers' for the respective campaigns, as if they're going to say something remotely interesting or surprising. They already know what each campaigns' talking points are...why the hell do they ask 'em again? I just endured Snoozapalooza '08 for 90 minutes...you'd think they'd interview the people in the room who are supposed 'independent voters'. You might at least get some honest answers.

[FatPitcher]

Man, one unexpected effect of last week's debate (watching tonight's debate): McCain is such a bright, intelligent, and well spoken guy. Then I thought about Palin last week with her dumb wink'n, u betchas, not answering questions, & such. The poor guy really deserves better. I felt bad for him tonight in that regard.

To me he sounded one step away from needing an iron lung.

[Smurfy]

Here's a bi-partisan headline should Obama win the election:

"It's an Obama-Nation!"

I know, I know

[Teal]

Here's a bi-partisan headline should Obama win the election:

"It's an Obama-Nation!"

I know, I know

Actually, that headline has been in circulation for several months now...in spirit anyway...

[Teal]

McCain just pisses me off when he talks about wanting to bailout moronic people that buy a house they can't afford.

Yeah, that was a terrible thing to push out there. I'm afraid he just 'Dole-ed' himself tonight after that one. His base will be off the rails over that one.

I don't see why he doesn't separate himself from all of them like he used to, rather than trying to out-democrat a democrat.

[fsquid]

no one won. As I watched the first 30 minutes, I've decided that we've all lost. I then logged onto ultimatebet to forget where I am.

[greggsand]

Man, one unexpected effect of last week's debate (watching tonight's debate): McCain is such a bright, intelligent, and well spoken guy. Then I thought about Palin last week with her dumb wink'n, u betchas, not answering questions, & such. The poor guy really deserves better. I felt bad for him tonight in that regard.

To me he sounded one step away from needing an iron lung.

That's true. There were times when he raised his "energy level" and sounded winded (for lack of a better term). He had a lot of whistle in his voice. I don't know, the whole thing just kind of bummed me out.

[fsquid]

Doesn't matter anyway. Obama has this thing wrapped up already. Only thing that could derail him would be a "cracka please" moment. Let's just hope he doesn't feck us royally in the next 4.

[FatPitcher]

McCain just pisses me off when he talks about wanting to bailout moronic people that buy a house they can't afford.

Yeah, that was a terrible thing to push out there. I'm afraid he just 'Dole-ed' himself tonight after that one. His base will be off the rails over that one.

I don't see why he doesn't separate himself from all of them like he used to, rather than trying to out-democrat a democrat.

I think you've got some rose-tinted glasses. This is the same way he's always been.

[Teal]

McCain just pisses me off when he talks about wanting to bailout moronic people that buy a house they can't afford.

Yeah, that was a terrible thing to push out there. I'm afraid he just 'Dole-ed' himself tonight after that one. His base will be off the rails over that one.

I don't see why he doesn't separate himself from all of them like he used to, rather than trying to out-democrat a democrat.

I think you've got some rose-tinted glasses. This is the same way he's always been.

I know. I just got a reminder tonight. Dammit. Wasn't going to vote for him until Palin entered the race, anyway. Kinda holding my nose and pulling the lever for him, just because I can't stand the thought of a liberal president with a liberal congress. Yeesh.

[pk500]

A very slight edge to Obama due to McCain's INSANE proposal to buy bad mortgages from homeowners, a program that reportedly will cost $300 billion. Add that to the bailout (it's not a f*cking rescue, McCain), and Uncle Sam is spending more than a TRILLION dollars to bail out predators and idiots.

We know Obama wants to spend a ton of money. But whatever happened to fiscally responsible Republicans when their candidate is proposing to have the GOVERNMENT buy bad mortgages? Reagan and Goldwater must be turning in their graves.

Almost any chance McCain had of earning my vote evaporated tonight when he proposed the mortgage buyout. That is sheer LUNACY and only promotes more irresponsible lending and consumer abuse of credit once the economy recovers.

Like Brad, I'm starting to lean back to Barr. Both McCain and Obama are morphing into socialists. Obama wants to socialize medicine; McCain wants to socialize the mortgage industry.

I don't want to take either poison potion.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

I know. I just got a reminder tonight. Dammit. Wasn't going to vote for him until Palin entered the race, anyway. Kinda holding my nose and pulling the lever for him, just because I can't stand the thought of a liberal president with a liberal congress. Yeesh.

http://www.bobbarr2008.com/home/skip/?s=0618

Take care,
PK

[RobVarak]

Quick impressions.

I think McCain was much stronger throughout than he was in the first part of Debate 1. I think Obama was not quite as sharp and strong as he was in Debate 1, but he was still fine. An adequate performance.

I don't have time to do it now, but I think it will be illustrative to go through that list of Factcheck corrections fromt the VP debate and see how many were repeated whole in this one. I counted at least 10 different lines that have been debunked very publically. Apparently the campaigns don't have internet access. LOL

The format was a disaster. More specifically the timing and structure was awful. "Tell me how you'd prioritize these three enormous issues. You have 60 seconds." LMAO

I think McCain's proposal to have Treasury buy individual mortgages was an unusually substantive proposal to unload in a debate. The risk of doing so is exactly what happened, it gets swallowed up in the sheer volume of verbiage that's kicked around. But he did look like a man with a plan, which was what he absolutely how he had to appear.

Somehow despite this I'm seeing talking heads tell me that he needs to "come up with a plan" for the economy. LOL If I weren't already sure of it, I'd believe that they were working off of talking points drafted before the debate

Earlier I said:

I wouldn't mind seein McCain draw the comparison in the debate tonight. He should have a pin reading, "Beware of Democrats bearing tax cuts."

Seriously, if he wants to turn things around he needs to look in the camera and convince Americans that he is the only candidate with both a plan to help the economy and the credibility to actually carry it out.

Mission accomplished in that respect:

And so let's look at our records as well as our rhetoric. That's really part of your mistrust here. And now I suggest that maybe you go to some of these organizations that are the watchdogs of what we do, like the Citizens Against Government Waste or the National Taxpayers Union or these other organizations that watch us all the time.

I don't expect you to watch every vote. And you know what you'll find? This is the most liberal big-spending record in the United States Senate. I have fought against excessive spending and outrages. I have fought to reduce the earmarks and eliminate them...

I think you have to look at my record and you have to look at his. Then you have to look at our proposals for our economy, not $860 billion in new spending, but for the kinds of reforms that keep people in their jobs, get middle-income Americans working again, and getting our economy moving again.

Obama was more effective than McCain on healthcare, but I think he looked less confident on foreign policy than he was in Debate 1. Like most candidates, the farther he gets off his stump speech the more uncomfortable he looks. His rambling answer to the question about the defense of Israel was very poor, and his answer to the humanitarian intervention question was reminiscent of Clintonian foreign policy.

McCain doesn't have the inate, unlearnable facility for working the crowd that Obama does, although he definitely looked more comfortable than he did in Debate 1. I was glad to see both of them addressing each other as "Senator."

If I were an independent I would be asking myself these two questions:

Do I really believe that Obama is going to lower my taxes while expanding the government's role in health care, shipping billions in foreign aid overseas and continuing the recent market interventions? And if I do, do I believe that he is experienced and has the judgment to conduct a reasonable foreign policy.

Do I really believe that McCain is any different from the Republicans who have spent like drunken sailors and gotten us involved in Iraq and only promise tax cuts with no other sensible cuts in spending? And if I do, is he engaged enough with economic issues to lead in this crisis?

[pk500]

Obama is incapable of concise thought and elocution. I don't think there was one instance tonight in which he finished inside either the two-minute or one-minute time limit.

Despite evidence to the contrary the last eight years in the White House, a leader can be economical with his words and still make an intelligent, articulate point. If Obama spends tax dollars with the same frequency he uses words, God help America.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Here's my basic problem with McCain's economic plan, especially now that he's proposing yet another massive government bailout: How will he pay for it?

At least there's some transparency with Obama's plan: We know he's going to raise taxes on the rich and corporations to pay for his programs. I don't like that idea one bit, but at least he's honest about it.

But how will McCain keep the existing tax rates for corporations and the rich and CUT middle-class taxes yet cut the deficit, fund a war and bail out consumer mortgages to the tune of $300 billion?

Going line by line through the budget -- an unfulfillable promise by both candidates if there ever was one -- won't cut it.

Both of these candidates are going to spend, spend and spend the next four years. That's crystal clear. Obama will raise taxes in certain segments to attempt to pay for it. That's clear.

What remains very opaque is how McCain will pay for his programs.

Take care,
PK

[wco81]

We know Obama wants to spend a ton of money. But whatever happened to fiscally responsible Republicans when their candidate is proposing to have the GOVERNMENT buy bad mortgages? Reagan and Goldwater must be turning in their graves.

So what could he have proposed which wasn't going to cost money?

More tax cuts?

Spending cuts in a contracting economy?

These are the things which Republicans have always proposed, regardless of economic conditions.

How are they more valuable in the current environment?

Or are they more about libertarian ideology than actually attempting to address the crisis?

[RobVarak]

So the Conservatives are going haywire over McCain's failure to mention Ayers, Wright et al.

I said he wouldn't do that. It's like my output here is completely ignored!

Edit...

If nothing else that proposal should put an end to suggestions that McCain has sold out to the Right...

[Dave]

But how will McCain keep the existing tax rates for corporations and the rich and CUT middle-class taxes yet cut the deficit, fund a war and bail out consumer mortgages to the tune of $300 billion?

Do you have ANY idea how much we're spending on planetariums? Once we get those out of the budget, it is all good.

[pk500]

How are they more valuable in the current environment?

Or are they more about libertarian ideology than actually attempting to address the crisis?

There comes a point where banks and people must take responsibility for their actions. The crisis is self-inflicted, either by predatory lenders or morons who lived way beyond their means.

The welfare state is designed to help the most downtrodden in our society. People who make $70,000 per year yet took out mortgages -- for which they KNEW the rate could double in certain financial situations -- for $400,000 are NOT the downtrodden of American society. They're the idiots who have zero financial discipline or who were duped because they didn't read the fine print.

Same thing for the banks. The predators are being rewarded for their devious actions with a nice government handout. I'm glad that AIG appears so chastened by its troubles -- AIG executives took a $400,000 junket after they learned the government was saving their ass.

It's about f*cking time that people learn to live within their means. That time is now.

I have saved like a miser, lived well within my means and budgeted like a hawk. Why the hell should I pay for those who didn't through higher taxes to fund these handouts?

I believe in Christian charity -- that's why I volunteer with kids in my community as a coach and in Scouting, and make contributions to various charities -- mainly cancer research -- and the Catholic Church. My charity doesn't extend to those who were drunk on cheap credit or to banks that continued to offer ARM's despite the potential consequences that we're seeing now.

There's a simple solution to this problem: Slash government spending and programs dramatically, and then make a corresponding huge cut in taxes. That will put money in people's pockets right away, cash they can use to pay mortgages and kick-start the economy with purchases.

But with either socialized medicine or socialized home financing right around the corner, the chances of those necessary cuts are slim at best.

Take care,
PK

[GTHobbes]

So McCain was only joking when he talked about bomb, bomb, bombing Iran? Am I the only one who fails to see the humor?

And where did this plan to bail out the irresponsible home buyers come from? Do the repubs even have a candidate in the race this go-round? I didn't hear the old timer say a single thing that made me want to vote his way. Disappointing.

[pk500]

But how will McCain keep the existing tax rates for corporations and the rich and CUT middle-class taxes yet cut the deficit, fund a war and bail out consumer mortgages to the tune of $300 billion?

Do you have ANY idea how much we're spending on planetariums? Once we get those out of the budget, it is all good.

We're going to need to find a shitload of $3-million overhead projectors to fund all of this stuff.

Take care,
PK

[Dave]

Fine, we'll cut out bear research too. What, you mean earmarks aren't the entire budgetary problem?