OT: Elections/Politics thread, part 4

[Teal]

McCain looked lost during the economic segment. His schtick like quoting Eisenhower when talking about calling for the firing of the SEC chairman was a real stretch, and the American worker platitudes seemed pretty hollow. He did better when talking about the surge and got more involved during foreign policy.

However, I had to laugh when he talked about forming a league of democracies to address Iran. Um, yes, and we might call it something like a united nations, and within this united nations, we will have a council of security that will help make security decisions.

Well, that'd be fine if the UN was worth a s***. There's no way there can be a league of anything formed with the knothole f***ers in the UN, except maybe the League of Extraordinary Dumbasses.

[JRod]

Obama keeps calling McCain "John", I wonder if some will view it as disrespectful.

Not as disrespectful as it was calling him Jim twice and Tom once.

It was a mistake we all make. Later in that same sentence he said a Senator's name with Tom in it. Couple that with McCain saying the President's of Iran's name a few times, and I think gaffes like that are a push.

No real "debate" moment here. Nothing like a Reagon calling Mondale too young or a Dan Quayle moment. It was probably the most civil Presidential debate I've seen. No one landed any knock-out quips. And no one made any real mistakes.

I think this debate does nothing to move the polls. Obama looked competent on foreign policy issues. And McCain didn't look lost or erratic like in the last week.

My score: Push.

I did find it funny that some of the networks then wanted to talk to the VPs. No Palin to be found. Isn't she ready yet?

Hell let's just skip that and have an hour of them talking about how they are going to get us out of this financial mess. I would prefer that to hearing Palin/Biden.

[Brando70]

McCain looked lost during the economic segment. His schtick like quoting Eisenhower when talking about calling for the firing of the SEC chairman was a real stretch, and the American worker platitudes seemed pretty hollow. He did better when talking about the surge and got more involved during foreign policy.

However, I had to laugh when he talked about forming a league of democracies to address Iran. Um, yes, and we might call it something like a united nations, and within this united nations, we will have a council of security that will help make security decisions.

Well, that'd be fine if the UN was worth a s***. There's no way there can be a league of anything formed with the knothole f***ers in the UN, except maybe the League of Extraordinary Dumbasses.

Did you miss the razz face at the end of that comment? I thought it funny that McCain was proposing a solution that sounded a lot one most Republicans hate.

[RobVarak]

I fall firmly into the camp of thinking my guy won, so I'm going to try to restrict myself to some of the comments around the periphery. Nobody with a horse in this race is going to change.

By the criteria I set forth earlier today, both outperformed expectations. Obama didn't stammer or lecture too much. He did look awkward raising his hand for response time rather than just waiting his turn or talking over Lehrer's moderation when necessary. He got better at that as the debate went on.

My wife, an Independent of late, did find it odd and a touch disrespectful when BO called McCain by his first name. I noted it but shrugged it off, she was much more put off by it.

He did appear darker than usual, but not his skin...it was his hair. He has been showing just the faintest hint of grey on the campaign trail lately, but his coif was black as night tonight.

McCain outperformed my expectation by being much, much sharper than I expected. I agree that his energy level was low during the open, but I read it more as solemnity which was reflected by Obama as well. He actually seemed stronger on economic issues than I would have expected, shrewdly hammering on government spending.

Obama did a nice job during the economic discussion of focusing on his tax cut sleight of hand. I think McCain should have made more than the one attempt to point out the incongruity of his spending and taxing plans. I'm fairly certain at this point that "closing corporate loopholes" is Obamanese for "watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat." LOL

There really is nothing like watching a liberal stammer in the presence of the words "spending freeze."

I though Jim Lehrer did a disservice by trying to spark a debate on the bailout as aggressively as he did. Given that the details of the plan remain unsettled and the fact that both candidates have agreed to a plan of some sort, there just wasn't enough fertile ground for debate. Obviously that's the issue du jour, but it's just too much of a situation in flux for fair debate...which is why both candidates kept turning away from the premise.

Obama did a better job tying McCain to Bush on Iraq than he did in other areas. He was persistent and scored some points there. His line about McCain acting like the war started in '07 was strong.

McCain absolutely undressed him on Pakistan, Iran and Russia. He went to some of the same arguments on experience that Hillary used on Obama during the primary and I was quite surprised that Obama hadn't worked up stronger responses given the vintage of the attacks. McCain very successfully stated the problems with Obama's experience and judgment.

Obama really should've done something with that sub-committee chairmanship He's usually astute enough to do enough in his current job to set up the next one; I'm surprised he left that hole on his resume...

McCain's throwaway about not even having his own Presidential seal was good, as was Obama's counterpunch on the America's standing in the world conversation. McCain never engaged on that topic strongly enough for my liking.

Obama was fortunate that the economic segment was included because it allows his supporters (and the media...where there's a distinction) to claim that he won because he wasn't blown out of the water.

In the end I agree with JRod that it probably won't move the polls much. But that doesn't mean that it won't still be a gamechanger given the fact that a small improvement in the polls for McCain could improve his standing in some of the closer statewide polls.

On the macro level, it was an excellent debate. Neither candidate totally dodged too many of the questions; Both were well prepped and well-spoken for the most part. Best Presidential debate in that respect in many, many years. America wins!

Edit 2---

I find the exercise of watching debates like this an interesting cognitive experiment. Trying to watch an event objectively when one has already sacrificed objectivity is a little like trying to roll your eyes around in your skull to look at your brain. It doesn't work and ultimately starts to hurt after awhile.

Not incidentally, this is why I find 99.9% of post-debate analysis in the media to be horrific. These people are no more independent than I am by this point in an election cycle, and utterly incapable of delivering objective analysis.

We need to find a race of brilliant extraterrestrials to evaluate these sorts of things without any bias

[Teal]

McCain looked lost during the economic segment. His schtick like quoting Eisenhower when talking about calling for the firing of the SEC chairman was a real stretch, and the American worker platitudes seemed pretty hollow. He did better when talking about the surge and got more involved during foreign policy.

However, I had to laugh when he talked about forming a league of democracies to address Iran. Um, yes, and we might call it something like a united nations, and within this united nations, we will have a council of security that will help make security decisions.

Well, that'd be fine if the UN was worth a s***. There's no way there can be a league of anything formed with the knothole f***ers in the UN, except maybe the League of Extraordinary Dumbasses.

Did you miss the razz face at the end of that comment? I thought it funny that McCain was proposing a solution that sounded a lot one most Republicans hate.

No, but I sure forgot to put my lol at the end of mine, because as I reread it, it sure didn't read like I intended. So here...

[Teal]

Line of the night for me:

And the notion that we would sit with Ahmadinejad and not say anything while he's spewing his nonsense and his vile comments is ridiculous. Nobody is even talking about that.

And John responded thus:

So let me get this right. We sit down with Ahmadinejad, and he says, "We're going to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth," and we say, "No, you're not"? Oh, please.

Oh hell, that was great!

[Teal]

And my second favorite was this:

I'm not going to set the White House visitors schedule before I'm president of the United States. I don't even have a seal yet.

That's pretty good...

[Teal]

And this exchange:

...you don't deal with Russia based on staring into his eyes and seeing his soul.

I looked into Mr. Putin's eyes, and I saw three letters, a "K," a "G," and a "B."

[Dave]

I'm very surprised to read that the early independent/undecided responses are largely in favor of Obama. Maybe my expectations for McCain were too low, but he did better than I expected.

It is funny that Republicans thought McCain won 90-10 and Democrats thought Obama won 93-7. SHOCKING!

[Spooky]

This will probably be the only time you'll ever catch me posting in a politics thread on here but I was quite intrigued by this debate tonight.

Calling me "undecided" would be an understatement so I have absolutely no bias or agenda...


That said, I was VERY impressed with Mr. Obama. I just could not help but feel that McCain continued to use the same old "I've been to war and was a prisoner" slant on EVERYTHING! We get it! Anything else you can provide us with some different insight??? (please understand that I am not trying to discredit his veteran status by any means).

Obama seemed much cooler under pressure and just seemed to bring up real topics and points while McCain danced around them and when in doubt, ALWAYS went back to his old standby of war talk.

[Teal]

This will probably be the only time you'll ever catch me posting in a politics thread on here but I was quite intrigued by this debate tonight.

Calling me "undecided" would be an understatement so I have absolutely no bias or agenda...


That said, I was VERY impressed with Mr. Obama. I just could not help but feel that McCain continued to use the same old "I've been to war and was a prisoner" slant on EVERYTHING! We get it! Anything else you can provide us with some different insight??? (please understand that I am not trying to discredit his veteran status by any means).

Obama seemed much cooler under pressure and just seemed to bring up real topics and points while McCain danced around them and when in doubt, ALWAYS went back to his old standby of war talk.

I heard him mention his own war experience, and the POW experience, once, spooky, and in passing. What gave you the idea that he droned on about it in response to everything?

[JackB1]

I agree with others that there was no clear winner on this debate. But....Obama did what he needed to do, namely proved he belonged and that he could hang with McCain on just about every issue. He showed poise, smarts and never got flustered. He showed that he can look "Presidential". If the debate was a tie, then you have to give Obama an edge for tying on what was probably be his weakest debate topic....foreign affairs.

I was impressed with McCain and he did better than I thought he would, but then again, so did Obama. My only beef I still have with Obama is his penchant for sending more troops to Afghanistan. I would like to hear what the entire plan and or mission is for that country. We don't need to escalate another open ended quagmire, with no exit strategy. Justify the reason to escalate the war in Afghanistan and explain to me what we are trying to accomplish there, Obama. All he has said is we need "more troops" there. We have heard that one before.

On a side note, did anyone know that we are now entering the Pakistan border in a last ditch effort to find Bin Laden? And that Pakistan is firing on our choppers? What happens when they take one down and there are sizable American casualties there? What then?

[Teal]

Iyou have to give Obama an edge for tying on what was probably be his weakest debate topic....foreign affairs.

That'd hold more water if the first half of the debate had anything to do with foreign affairs. In the part that actually HAD to do with foreign affairs, he got his hat handed to him. He *sounded* pretty good, I'll admit, in the economy half of the debate(I'd rather they had switched the foreign policy with the economic debates, rather than muddying the waters of one with the other). My only problem is that the underlying theme of his answers is that of pure ol' socialism, taxing the rich and giving it to the 'poor'. Robin Hood is a nice story, but shouldn't be implemented as a government policy.

[Dave]

Obama seemed much cooler under pressure

This seems to be a common take-away. Obama looked calm and collected while McCain's temper flared up a couple times and made him look angry.

[Dave]

This made me laugh.

From Slate:

Whoever wins the election, one thing is for sure: The next president of the United States will be extremely boring.

At least, that’s the impression voters just tuning in will get based on tonight’s debate.

[Teal]

Well, well...just heard via the news that Kissenger said that Obama grossly mischaracterized him about face to face meetings, and that McCain got it right.

[RobVarak]

Kissinger speaks:

Henry Kissinger believes Barack Obama misstated his views on diplomacy with US adversaries and is not happy about being mischaracterized. He says: "Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality."

From The Weekly Standard.

I have to admit though, that it's heartening to see a liberal Democrat fighting tooth and nail to align himself with Dr. Kissinger.

[Teal]

Obama seemed much cooler under pressure

This seems to be a common take-away. Obama looked calm and collected while McCain's temper flared up a couple times and made him look angry.

I didn't get anger, so much as it seemed he just got fired up a couple of times, and didn't let Obama get away with untrue statements (like the Kissenger one).

[Teal]

Kissinger speaks:

Henry Kissinger believes Barack Obama misstated his views on diplomacy with US adversaries and is not happy about being mischaracterized. He says: "Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality."

From The Weekly Standard.

I have to admit though, that it's heartening to see a liberal Democrat fighting tooth and nail to align himself with Dr. Kissinger.

Now THAT'S the politics of HOPE!

[TheGamer]

I watched the CNN special with the former Secretaries of States, and Kissinger did agree with the others in regards to the face to face meetings. I think Kissinger is giving a bit of revisionist history on what he said.

[RobVarak]

I just could not help but feel that McCain continued to use the same old "I've been to war and was a prisoner" slant on EVERYTHING! We get it! Anything else you can provide us with some different insight???

I think he made only one reference to his service, talking about how he knows what it's like to see an army return without victory. You're more than entitled to take away whatever impression you'd like, but that one seems inconsistent with what he said tonight.

On another note. Epic fail on McCain's part not to hammer Obama for his cuddling up with Fannie/Freddie. Huge opportunity left on the table by not contrasting his past on the GSE's v. Obama's brief smash-and-grab relationship.

In reading the transcript I see something that should have been obvious from the get-go. The reason that both candidates ran and hid during the first 15 minutes was that they hadn't prepped anything on the topic. So you had McCain turn to spending and Obama turn to his tax/spend routine to get on familiar stump-speech ground.

[Dave]

Since I base my opinion on the amount of times a candidate says "orgy," Obama clearly won in my book.

[Teal]

Since I base my opinion on the amount of times a candidate says "orgy," Obama clearly won in my book.

I don't even want to know what the motivation behind that is...

[RobVarak]

Since I base my opinion on the amount of times a candidate says "orgy," Obama clearly won in my book.

I was considering basing my vote on the candidate with the most bracelets, but that came out even

Incidentally, I'm going to say an extra little prayer tonight that I'm not a fact-checker by trade. It's gotta be like untangling the mother of all Christmas light string messes.

[TheGamer]

Yeah link the black guy with sexuality