OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 3

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Who are you planning to vote for?

McCain / Palin (R)
15
30%
Obama / Biden (D)
22
44%
Still Undecided, but leaning Rep.
5
10%
Still Undecided, but leaning Dem.
4
8%
Undecided - Could go either way
1
2%
Not going to vote
2
4%
Libertarian (L)
1
2%
 
Total votes: 50

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TheHiddenTrack
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Post by TheHiddenTrack »

I was doing some late night reading on Palin and Obama if anyone would like to join me, trying to remind myself why I'm voting for Obama (and I'm really interested in learning more about Palin because I'm kind of becoming resigned to the fact that McCain is going to win... so if you got some good articles, post them):

I really enjoyed this article, a lot more background then the others I have read, but it's certainly not a puff piece:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008 ... ntPage=all
The State of Sarah Palin - The peculiar political landscape of the Vice-Presidential hopeful.
When Palin arrived on the scene, Murkowski’s gas-line deal was dead, and she adopted another approach, cutting out the big oil producers in favor of a Canadian pipeline company. She counted it a great victory when, this summer, the legislature approved a framework for proceeding with the project.

“We’re not just gonna concede to three big oil companies of this monopoly—Exxon, B.P., ConocoPhillips—and beg them to do this for Alaska,” Palin told me last month in Juneau. “We’re gonna say, ‘O.K., this is so economic that we don’t have to incentivize you to build this. In fact, this has got to be a mutually beneficial partnership here as we build it. We’re gonna lay out Alaska’s must-haves. Parameters are gonna be set, rules are gonna be laid out, a law will encompass what it is that Alaska needs to protect our sovereignty, to insure it’s jobs first for Alaskans, and in-state use of gas’ ”—her list went on. In the past, she said, “Alaska was conceding too much, and chipping away at our sovereignty. And Alaska—we’re set up, unlike other states in the union, where it’s collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs.” And she said, “Our state constitution—it lays it out for me, how I’m to conduct business with resource development here as the state C.E.O. It’s to maximize benefits for Alaskans, not an individual company, not some multinational somewhere, but for Alaskans.”
And if you would like to learn more about Obama in Chicago, just to be fair and balanced as Sean Hannity would say (he comes off as a calculating politician, imagine that!):
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008 ... ntPage=all
Making It - How Chicago Shaped Obama
“We were talking about whether he was ready to do this or not,” Pritzker told me. She was blunt, telling Obama, “As I see it, the two things that you’re going to need to address are your executive leadership skills, because your résumé doesn’t have that in it, and the second would be your credentials in national security.” Obama returned with an organizational chart indicating how the campaign would be structured—one of his great tactical advantages over the disorganized Clinton campaign—along with a list of advisers. Pritzker agreed to become his finance chair. Obama has frequently been one step ahead of his friends and the public in anticipating his own rise. Perhaps it is all those people he has met over the years who told him that he would be President one day. The Reverend Alvin Love, a South Side Baptist minister and a longtime Obama friend, said that Obama called him in December, 2006, seeking advice about whether to run for President. “My dad told me that you’ve got to strike while the iron is hot,” Love recalls saying, and Obama replied, “The iron can’t get any hotter.”
And Here's some more for the Obaminista's who would like to learn more about the potential president (he's at least done one thing in between writing his speeches, imagine that):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03303.html
Judge Him by His Laws
Consider a bill into which Obama clearly put his heart and soul. The problem he wanted to address was that too many confessions, rather than being voluntary, were coerced -- by beating the daylights out of the accused.

Obama proposed requiring that interrogations and confessions be videotaped.

This seemed likely to stop the beatings, but the bill itself aroused immediate opposition. There were Republicans who were automatically tough on crime and Democrats who feared being thought soft on crime. There were death penalty abolitionists, some of whom worried that Obama's bill, by preventing the execution of innocents, would deprive them of their best argument. Vigorous opposition came from the police, too many of whom had become accustomed to using muscle to "solve" crimes. And the incoming governor, Rod Blagojevich, announced that he was against it.

Obama had his work cut out for him.

He responded with an all-out campaign of cajolery.
And for some more life history:
The Conciliator - Where is Barack Obama coming from?
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007 ... r[quote]It is, then, not surprising that when it was proposed that America should invade Iraq with the goal of establishing democracy there, Obama knew that it would be a terrible mistake. This was American innocence at its most destructive, freedom at its most deceptive, universalism at its most naïve. “There was a dangerous innocence to thinking that we would be greeted as liberators, or that with a little bit of economic assistance and democratic training you’d have a Jeffersonian democracy blooming in the desert,” he says now. “There is a running thread in American history of idealism that can express itself powerfully and appropriately, as it did after World War II with the creation of the United Nations and the Marshall Plan, when we recognized that our security and prosperity depend on the security and prosperity of others. But the same idealism can express itself in a sense that we can remake the world any way we want by flipping a switch, because we’re technologically superior or we’re wealthier or we’re morally superior. And when our idealism spills into that kind of naïveté and an unwillingness to acknowledge history and the weight of other cultures, then we get ourselves into trouble, as we did in Vietnam.”[/quote]
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Post by FatPitcher »

There were death penalty abolitionists, some of whom worried that Obama's bill, by preventing the execution of innocents, would deprive them of their best argument.
That's pretty f***** up reasoning.
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Post by warnerwlf98 »

Tina Fey appears as the governor of Alaska:

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/ ... en/656281/
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Post by Teal »

JRod wrote:
It was from the NY Times so it has to be false. Even the ink they print on has a liberal tint to it. :roll:
Yep, that about sums it up.
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Post by Teal »

GTHobbes wrote:
TheHiddenTrack wrote: Rob was right, the "hit jobs" keep on coming.
And JRod was also right. She is coming across more and more like another Bush/Cheney. Sad.
Dear lord-you're kidding, right? I mean, er...left?
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Post by XXXIV »

Teal wrote:
JRod wrote:
It was from the NY Times so it has to be false. Even the ink they print on has a liberal tint to it. :roll:
Yep, that about sums it up.

Finally all 3 of us agree about something.
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Post by XXXIV »

warnerwlf98 wrote:Tina Fey appears as the governor of Alaska:
I still cant believe Alaska is a state let alone has a governor.
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Post by JRod »

XXXIV wrote:Finally all 3 of us agree about something.

:roll: = I was kidding.

I posted more detailed thoughts on my other posts about the NY Times article.

Not all of what they write can be false that's empirically impossible. While they had some huge gaffes over the years, the NY Times is still a leader in this country in journalism.
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Post by Teal »

Don Henley says it better than me:
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/E90vqso1dM0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>
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Post by JackB1 »

warnerwlf98 wrote:Tina Fey appears as the governor of Alaska:

http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/ ... en/656281/
Funny stuff! I thought Fey had her voice down pretty good! Unfortunately, the rest of the show was pretty mediocre. They need to get some new writers on that show.
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Post by JackB1 »

Aren't the Republicans doing with Palin what they accused the Dem's of doing with Obama? That is, that they are willing to overlook Palin's lack of experience because they like her spunky personality, her "Super Mom" persona or her jokes about lipstick and pitbulls.

Wasn't this similiar to what they were saying about Obama supporters? That we just like the way he talks, his "celebrity" and all and are willing to overlook his lack of experience for his charm?

Any reasonable person would have to admit that Palin is severely under experienced for a job in the White House and particularly to be next in line for an aging McCain who isn't the fittest fiddle in the room. Personally, I am willing to admit Obama is slightly under experienced for role as President, but am willing to overlook that for the promise of change and intelligence and worldwide appeal he would bring to Washington.
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Post by XXXIV »

JackB1 wrote:
Any reasonable person would have to admit that Palin is severely under experienced for a job in the White House and particularly to be next in line for an aging McCain who isn't the fittest fiddle in the room. Personally, I am willing to admit Obama is slightly under experienced for role as President, .
Yes they would...but then see you lose me when you use the word slightly to describe your idols lack of experience....

You accuse Republicans of a double standard as you apply one your self...SHAME!


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by matthewk »

JackB1 wrote:Any reasonable person would have to admit that Palin is severely under experienced for a job in the White House and particularly to be next in line for an aging McCain who isn't the fittest fiddle in the room.
Dear Lord Jack, how many times do we have to do this? :roll:
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Post by Teal »

JackB1 wrote:Aren't the Republicans doing with Palin what they accused the Dem's of doing with Obama? That is, that they are willing to overlook Palin's lack of experience because they like her spunky personality, her "Super Mom" persona or her jokes about lipstick and pitbulls.

Wasn't this similiar to what they were saying about Obama supporters? That we just like the way he talks, his "celebrity" and all and are willing to overlook his lack of experience for his charm?

Any reasonable person would have to admit that Palin is severely under experienced for a job in the White House and particularly to be next in line for an aging McCain who isn't the fittest fiddle in the room. Personally, I am willing to admit Obama is slightly under experienced for role as President, but am willing to overlook that for the promise of change and intelligence and worldwide appeal he would bring to Washington.

Actually, Jack, it has nothing to do with being 'reasonable' or not. Seems to me it's more a question of being conservative or not. None of the conservatives seem to think that she's not qualified-many of the liberals think that she's not, and even go so far as to think Obama is *more* qualified...which is, at the least, extremely debatable, and, true to form, predictable.

The biggest problem with all of this is still that OBAMA IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, NOT VICE PRESIDENT. Add to that the fact that none, and I mean none, of the candidates have now, nor have ever, had any experience whatsoever sitting in the presidents' chair, and then one may question what kind of experience these people are talking about: Experience as a community organizer, and state legislator (and I'm not knocking the community organizer thing...but c'mon-as a beacon of experience for the executive branch of government? Hardly.), or experience governing? Which is still comparing apples to oranges, because Palin isn't running for president, a fact that makes me chuckle everytime someone compares her with Obama (a comparison that doesn't help Obama in the least), because not only are they not running for the same office, but, even IF the experience thing is neck and neck (which, in Palin's favor, is a stretch), Obama is still the bigger loser given that he's seemingly forgotten that the comparison is moot. If he wants to run for vice president, then he (and you all) might have something to crow about by comparison. But this...this just looks silly, and is terribly entertaining.
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Post by matthewk »

JackB1 wrote:Aren't the Republicans doing with Palin what they accused the Dem's of doing with Obama? That is, that they are willing to overlook Palin's lack of experience because they like her spunky personality, her "Super Mom" persona or her jokes about lipstick and pitbulls.
No, they are not. They aren't overlooking her "lack of experience", because she has plenty of of it for the new job she is running for.

The difference between Palin and Obama, besides the fact that one is running as VP and the other president, is that her personality is only a part of what makes her so attractive to voters. She has actually done things in government that have directly helped those she was elected to serve.
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Post by matthewk »

Jack, did you support Howard Dean back when he was the front runner for the democratic nomination in 2004? Wasn't he the favorite son of the party before he went all "whooo Hah!"? If so, look up what his qualifications were at the time.
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Post by Teal »

Jared wrote:There is a July NYT article where McCain says he is learning how to use a computer...so the limitation isn't because of his disability. Otherwise, how could he be learning it?

Yet another non-story...

(though I must admit that the ad is dumb just becauuse of the content, not for any exaggerated injury connection.)
Exaggerated? Care to prove that?
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Post by Jackdog »

JackDog wrote:
JackB1 wrote:
Of course you like it. You share the beliefs. But would you like it as much if our proposed leaders were touting Buddhism or Hindu? I don't think so.
Yes, we were founded on religion, but that was before we turned into the melting pot we are today. Just because this is still practiced doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I know it's not going away too soon, but like I said earlier, this is a govt for ALL people...not just those that believe in Jesus.
That's a pretty shallow way of thinking Jack. Thanks for painting me as a intolerant Christian. I guess because I am black I like chicken and watermelon too huh? We have lived in countries where Islam was the main religion and practiced by it's leaders. We were cool with it. We we're in the minority. We had no choice.

As far as your comment and history lesson about our country,where did I say America wasn't for all people? Where did I say it was just for Christians? More assumptions and stereotypes huh Jack? I love America because it's tolerant of all religions unlike some of the countries I've served in that kill their own people for coverting. I could go on but why? I have learned so much about you in this thread it's not funny.

By the way. What about Obama? From the SC Primary.
Image
Click on this to read the flyer.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/images ... aith_2.jpg

http://www.newsweek.com/id/145971/page/4
Nevertheless, his spiritual life on the campaign trail survives. He says he prays every day, typically for "forgiveness for my sins and flaws, which are many, the protection of my family, and that I'm carrying out God's will, not in a grandiose way, but simply that there is an alignment between my actions and what he would want." He sometimes reads his Bible in the evenings, a ritual that "takes me out of the immediacy of my day and gives me a point of reflection." Thanks to the efforts of his religious outreach team, he has an army of clerics and friends praying for him and e-mailing him snippets of Scripture or Midrash to think about during the day. The Rev. Kirbyjon Caldwell—who gave the invocations at both of George W. Bush's inaugurals and presided over the wedding of the president's daughter Jenna—is among those on Obama's prayer team.
You never said a word about your Messiah and his pandering for the religious vote. Do I need to post something about Palin to gat an answer Jack?

Here ya go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIn_fFWPaUU
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Post by Teal »

Heh...I would have added this at the end of the ad:

"She's running for vice president. He's running for president. Need we say more?"

"Barack Obama...has to compare himself with the bottom of the ticket, and still winds up losing out."
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Post by FatPitcher »

Corruption, cronyism, intimidation, scare tactics: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02638.html. (Hint: this one isn't about disaffected librarians or museum directors)

I can't wait to see who got rich screwing this up while taxpayers now have to foot the bill.
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Post by JackB1 »

matthewk wrote:Jack, did you support Howard Dean back when he was the front runner for the democratic nomination in 2004? Wasn't he the favorite son of the party before he went all "whooo Hah!"? If so, look up what his qualifications were at the time.
No, I did not.
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Post by JackB1 »

Teal wrote:Heh...I would have added this at the end of the ad:

"She's running for vice president. He's running for president. Need we say more?"

"Barack Obama...has to compare himself with the bottom of the ticket, and still winds up losing out."
We are comparing the 2 because they are both being criticized by the other sides as lacking experience.

You guys are overlooking the fact that over 10% of our Presidents got there by replacing someone else...not by being directly elected. Palin could very will end up as President. It's not as unlikely as you think.

Lets compare the qualifications, shall we?

Obama:

-3 years as a community organizer
- first black President of the Harvard Law Review
-12 years as a Constitutional Law professor
-8 years as a State Senator representing a district with over 750,000 people
-chairman of the state Senate's Health and Human Services committee
- 4 years in the United States Senate representing a state of 13 million people
-sponsored 131 bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs, Environment and Public Works
-Served on the Veteran's Affairs committees

Palin:

-local weather girl
-4 years on the city council
-6 years as the mayor of a town with less than 7,000 people
-20 months as the governor of a state with only 650,000 people
-hockey mom

I'll let you guys decide who has more and also more pertinent experience
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Post by Teal »

eh, I'll just use the next one...
Last edited by Teal on Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Teal »

Wait, wait, wait..."1st BLACK president of Harvard Law Review"?

How in the hell is his race pertinent? I thought this wasn't ABOUT race?

Look, most of this stuff is just stuff. It's like me telling you that I'm qualified to be the CEO of Wal Mart because I've been in stores LIKE Wal Mart for years, and have even gone INTO Wal Mart for the last 4 years. Furthermore, I was a community organizer to get Wal Mart here. And I was served as legal counsel for Wal Mart, even becoming head counsel. Oh, yeah, and I'm black.

Now, if I had actually BEEN the Chief Executive Officer of, say, Dollar General Stores, and had firsthand knowledge of how to run a business like that, then I'd expect that it alone would trump all that other stuff. Yeah, Dollar General isn't nearly as big as Wal Mart, but still...CEO experience is CEO experience.

His veep hopeful said it better than I've tried to here: "The White House is not a place for on-the-job training". And he was speaking about Obama...
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Post by macsomjrr »

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/B9q2jNjOPdk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>
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