OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 3

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Who are you planning to vote for?

McCain / Palin (R)
15
30%
Obama / Biden (D)
22
44%
Still Undecided, but leaning Rep.
5
10%
Still Undecided, but leaning Dem.
4
8%
Undecided - Could go either way
1
2%
Not going to vote
2
4%
Libertarian (L)
1
2%
 
Total votes: 50

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RobVarak
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Post by RobVarak »

Brando70 wrote:What exactly is the myth of feminism? Sarah Palin wouldn't be where she is without feminism.
Feminism as a movement and as a term has been a hollow shell for at least 50 years, and neither has done a damn thing for women. The 60's era "womens" leaders abdicated their duty to women and have been nothing more than craven liberal activists. They have stereotyped their own constituency by boiling them down to single-issue voters (a fact that you reinforced with your defense), wasted decades and millions on the quixotic and ridiculous ERA crusade and generally marginalized themselves by pushing an agenda that was often out of favor with the very people whom they were trying to "advance."

Women would have done as well or better without the Steinems of the world ignoring the social reality of womens' improving lives and creating elaborate persecution myths that did more to undermine the perception of womens' independence than anything "opponents" of women did.

Since WWII, women have progressed through the collective efforts of millions of women who each did their individual part to demonstrate their value and capacity, not through the selfish and short-sighted efforts of a few politically motivated demagogues. Women have torn down the barriers which once confronted them by demonstrating that given the freedom to do so they can manage the entirety of a life, professional, family and personal without special consideration from government or the law.

Women in the US have a varied and multi-faceted political agenda, while the dinosaurs of the feminist movement still cling pathetically to the rapidly-disintegrating life raft of reproductive rights scare tactics. The very fact that these people have perverted their vision of social advancement and equality to the point where it does not include celebrating the fact that a woman may ascend to the vice-presidency is evidence enough of their obsolescence. The T-Rex is always the last to know.
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Post by Feanor »

It's not scare tactics when Bush's DHHS are trying to equate the pill with abortion.

The animal in that picture looks like a llama to me.
Last edited by Feanor on Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RobVarak »

A classy recovery by Joe Biden after an awkward, and funny, mistake.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... ml?showall
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Post by Feanor »

RobVarak wrote:A classy recovery by Joe Biden after an awkward, and funny, mistake.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... ml?showall
Heh. Last week I was wondering what the people in wheelchairs at the RNC did during McCain's speech when he kept telling everyone to stand up.
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Post by Teal »

wco81 wrote:
Teal wrote:
wco81 wrote:McCain the Maverick 2000 Edition is long dead.
No more dead than the horse you keep beating...
The 2000 Edition was against tax cuts, for immigration reform.

He was also enraged at the smear campaign involving his adopted Indonesian daughter.

Now, he's flip-flopped on those and other issues and has eaten s*** and kissed up to the Bush machine.

If he was still the 2000-2003 McCain, you wouldn't be able to stand him.

Thank you Kreskin; hell, I didn't even know I thought that back then.
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Post by RobVarak »

Feanor wrote:It's not scare tactics when Bush's DHHS are trying to equate the pill with abortion.
I have no problem with women or men objecting to perceived infringement on their privacy rights. But doing so wrapped in the mantle of feminism isn't a fair description of their cause, isn't fair to women and isn't even linguistically accurate.
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Post by RobVarak »

Incidentally, should we have Bob Barr's name in the poll instead of just Libertarian? I hate to see him overlooked, particularly after handling that incident with Borat's wife's breast milk cheese with such class and dignity. :)
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Post by fsquid »

wco81 wrote:
fsquid wrote: What I'd like to see Obama or McCain (or anyone, I don't care who, I just want to see it done) really come forward with a pro-growth economic strategy. Elements of that strategy, to my mind, would include:

1. A taxation scheme that is competitive with Europe and other developed countries.
2. A lot of the Ross Perot talking points (excluding the anti-NAFTA ones) about how to get the economy going, particularly small businesses, which 16 years later have still never been addressed. Perot understood that you can't be pro-jobs without being pro-business.
3. An energy strategy that makes sense. Paris Hilton has a better energy plan than either major party. I'm not kidding, she really does. How bad is that?
4. A solution to health care. I'm favorably inclined toward the French model, which Brasil may actually be executing currently better than the French are. Brasil has better answers on energy and health care than we do. Is that worse than Paris Hilton having a better energy plan? Should we ask Paris what to do about health care too?
5. Recognition that we are in a battle for worldwide economic supremacy. Winning the economic battles will in the future be more important than winning the military battles. Understand why we are losing the battles we lose (which is most of them), and make corrections to turn those losses into wins.
6. A solution on social security before we become so overburdened with paying benefits that we can't be competitive econmically.
7. Recognition that we can't spend more to defend Germany and Japan than Germany and Japan do, without inevitably becoming less economically competitive with Germany and Japan.

Focus more on growing the pie, and less on how the pie gets divided. As JFK said, "A rising tide lifts all boats."
GDP growth hasn't been that bad. It's median real income which has stagnated in this decade, as corporations were flush with cash but kept labor costs low by not creating as many jobs.

Those at the top of the food chain did very well with profits, the rank and file, not so much.

You don't want to point to French or European taxation as the model for economic growth. They're more concerned with price stability so their central banks are not free with money like the Fed. EU GDP and job growth has lagged way behind the US.
I think the real problem goes back to the loss of the manufacturing base. This idea that we can be a "service economy" fails to recognize that you have to perform value-added processes in order to create wealth in your economy. We can't get rich delivering Domino's to each other.

We masked the problem for a while with the housing market. Building new homes did create value, although it obviously did nothing for export sales. I think a lot of the Fannie/Freddie problems resulted because we stretched the rules to make sure that housing demand stayed up, since that was what was propping up the economy.

Meanwhile, we neglected to address, among others:
- Energy
- Terrorism, at least not until 9/11
- Health care
- Social security
- Tax structure relative to the rest of the world, and effect on capital formation

The best roadmap I've seen for restoring our manufacturing base was laid out by Ross Perot in the early 1990s. I would exclude the anti-NAFTA stuff, because I don't agree (and I'm doing the excluding) and because I'm not sure Perot agreed except that he had put a lot into developing Alliance Airport, and that project was worth much less with NAFTA in place. Since the big appeal of Alliance was the duty free zone, it's hard to argue that Perot opposed free trade absolutely. Aside from that issue, the rest of his talking points would be good today, as they were then, becuase most of them have never actually been addressed.
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Post by JRod »

RobVarak wrote:
Brando70 wrote:What exactly is the myth of feminism? Sarah Palin wouldn't be where she is without feminism.
Feminism as a movement and as a term has been a hollow shell for at least 50 years, and neither has done a damn thing for women. The 60's era "womens" leaders abdicated their duty to women and have been nothing more than craven liberal activists. They have stereotyped their own constituency by boiling them down to single-issue voters (a fact that you reinforced with your defense), wasted decades and millions on the quixotic and ridiculous ERA crusade and generally marginalized themselves by pushing an agenda that was often out of favor with the very people whom they were trying to "advance."

Women would have done as well or better without the Steinems of the world ignoring the social reality of womens' improving lives and creating elaborate persecution myths that did more to undermine the perception of womens' independence than anything "opponents" of women did.

Since WWII, women have progressed through the collective efforts of millions of women who each did their individual part to demonstrate their value and capacity, not through the selfish and short-sighted efforts of a few politically motivated demagogues. Women have torn down the barriers which once confronted them by demonstrating that given the freedom to do so they can manage the entirety of a life, professional, family and personal without special consideration from government or the law.

Women in the US have a varied and multi-faceted political agenda, while the dinosaurs of the feminist movement still cling pathetically to the rapidly-disintegrating life raft of reproductive rights scare tactics. The very fact that these people have perverted their vision of social advancement and equality to the point where it does not include celebrating the fact that a woman may ascend to the vice-presidency is evidence enough of their obsolescence. The T-Rex is always the last to know.

One could also argue the the pro-life advocates use the same scare tactics in promoting their agenda. I don't think I've ever heard an honest debate between the two parties much less the Republican party regarding abortion or gay rights. Instead they forgo, the merits of a debate and replace their agenda with fear mongering.

Neither the left nor the right has a monopoly on scare tactics.

You are talking about extremists not those in the mainstream. For a Gloria Steinham you have a Dr. Laura. For a Chris Matthews you have a Sean Hannity. For a JackB you have a Teal. :D

Yin and yang. Right and Left.
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Post by Teal »

Boy, THIS was stupid...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... a_pig.html

File under "Barry's WTF was I thinking" section... 8O
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Post by RobVarak »

JRod wrote:
One could also argue the the pro-life advocates use the same scare tactics in promoting their agenda. I don't think I've ever heard an honest debate between the two parties much less the Republican party regarding abortion or gay rights. Instead they forgo, the merits of a debate and replace their agenda with fear mongering.

Neither the left nor the right has a monopoly on scare tactics.

You are talking about extremists not those in the mainstream. For a Gloria Steinham you have a Dr. Laura. For a Chris Matthews you have a Sean Hannity. For a JackB you have a Teal. :D

Yin and yang. Right and Left.

As my last reply to Feanor indicates, I agree with you. There are definitely scare tactics on both sides. My beef is with the idea that the rump feminist state still speaks for the advancement of women on this or any other issue. :)
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Post by RobVarak »

Teal wrote:Boy, THIS was stupid...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... a_pig.html

File under "Barry's WTF was I thinking" section... 8O
Seems like scant reason to take offense. Ticky tack foul, if any...
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Post by Teal »

RobVarak wrote:
Teal wrote:Boy, THIS was stupid...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... a_pig.html

File under "Barry's WTF was I thinking" section... 8O
Seems like scant reason to take offense. Ticky tack foul, if any...
Yeah, but you know that life and death are in sound bites in America. In that vein, it was a stupid thing to say...
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Post by pk500 »

Teal wrote:Boy, THIS was stupid...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... a_pig.html

File under "Barry's WTF was I thinking" section... 8O
It was totally fair game for Obama since Palin used the "lipstick" punch line about the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom joke in her speech last week.

Plus Obama's veiled jab at Palin through this mark was downright benign compared to some of the muck hurled at him by Lindsey Graham, Giuliani and Palin during the GOP convention last week.

But a veiled reference to Palin as a pig? Forget any offensive connotations: Barry is nuts -- she's pretty hot! :)

Take care,
PK
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Post by RobVarak »

pk500 wrote:
Teal wrote:Boy, THIS was stupid...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... a_pig.html

File under "Barry's WTF was I thinking" section... 8O
It was totally fair game for Obama since Palin used the "lipstick" punch line about the difference between a pit bull and a hockey mom joke in her speech last week.

Plus Obama's veiled jab at Palin through this mark was downright benign compared to some of the muck hurled at him by Lindsey Graham, Giuliani and Palin during the GOP convention last week.

But a veiled reference to Palin as a pig? Forget any offensive connotations: Barry is nuts -- she's pretty hot! :)

Take care,
PK
And oddly enough, Gloria Steinem would have no problem with the slight :)
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Post by pk500 »

It's funny to read some of the comments from Obama supporters under Ben Smith's blog post about this remark. Some of them are outraged because it's an "offensive" remark.

Please -- it's f*cking politics.

There's a reason the Democrats are so impotent as a party: They are too busy being politically correct to know how to fight in an election. Just look at 2004. Kerry gets "Swift boated" by a cheap shot from the GOP, and the Democrats have absolutely no clue how to counter-punch.

Fast-forward to last week. The GOP nominates a pretty hot, interesting fireball broad as VP who introduces herself to America by talking trash about the Dems and Obama, and the Democrats have no clue how to respond other than feeble press releases and claims of inexperience for Palin.

There's absolutely no question that Palin's emergence as a fighter has knocked the Dems off track, at least temporarily.

The Dems have no clue how to fight. So I find it really funny that Obama throws a low blow, and the most outrage seems to come from HIS supporters rather than McCain-Palin supporters. Pretty telling, there.

Say what you will about the Clintons, and I despise them, but they know how to fight dirty like old-school Democratic politicians.

It seems to me that the Democratic Party of today has become so enamored with Obama's faux idealism and messiah syndrome that they have forgotten that the road to the White House is a street fight. They seem right now to have no idea where the brass knuckles are, let alone how to use them.

Take care,
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Post by Teal »

And, in RING #3!

http://wcbstv.com/politics/paterson.mcc ... 13646.html
:lol: This is just getting better and better...
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Post by RobVarak »

Teal wrote:And, in RING #3!

http://wcbstv.com/politics/paterson.mcc ... 13646.html
:lol: This is just getting better and better...
Now THAT is a stretch LOL
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Post by SPTO »

"looks at poll"

Hey wait! How am I to answer that? :?:

Anyways I'll follow this incarnation of the thread and join in the conversation starting Thursday. I noticed the recent poll numbers saying that the race has tightened up.

Could the debates "gasp" actually mean something for the first time in a generation?
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Post by JackB1 »

RobVarak wrote:
Teal wrote:Boy, THIS was stupid...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... a_pig.html

File under "Barry's WTF was I thinking" section... 8O
Seems like scant reason to take offense. Ticky tack foul, if any...
For once I agree with you Rob. Meaningless comment. Let's get back to the issues...
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Post by XXXIV »

JackB1 wrote:
For once I agree with you Rob. Meaningless comment. Let's get back to the issues...
Aerial wolf hunting ? :P
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Post by wco81 »

fsquid wrote: I think the real problem goes back to the loss of the manufacturing base. This idea that we can be a "service economy" fails to recognize that you have to perform value-added processes in order to create wealth in your economy. We can't get rich delivering Domino's to each other.

We masked the problem for a while with the housing market. Building new homes did create value, although it obviously did nothing for export sales. I think a lot of the Fannie/Freddie problems resulted because we stretched the rules to make sure that housing demand stayed up, since that was what was propping up the economy.

Meanwhile, we neglected to address, among others:
- Energy
- Terrorism, at least not until 9/11
- Health care
- Social security
- Tax structure relative to the rest of the world, and effect on capital formation

The best roadmap I've seen for restoring our manufacturing base was laid out by Ross Perot in the early 1990s. I would exclude the anti-NAFTA stuff, because I don't agree (and I'm doing the excluding) and because I'm not sure Perot agreed except that he had put a lot into developing Alliance Airport, and that project was worth much less with NAFTA in place. Since the big appeal of Alliance was the duty free zone, it's hard to argue that Perot opposed free trade absolutely. Aside from that issue, the rest of his talking points would be good today, as they were then, becuase most of them have never actually been addressed.
The factories for things like textiles which have moved overseas aren't coming back, unless American workers are earning less than the Chinese.

Germany had some success recently, even with the high Euro, exporting some precision equipment like specialized pumps to Eastern Europe, so products which require the highest skilled labor have a chance of being manufactured in industrialized countries.

Now, Tom Friedman is promoting a new book about green energy, talking about what Congress has done or hasn't done to promote renewables. One story he tells is how the Senate has failed 8 times to pass an extension of tax subsidies for solar and other renewable energy.

He cites Vuinovich of OH voting against the extension, even though First Solar is located in Toledo, OH. First Solar recently built a factory in the former East Germany, because the Germans gave them a tax credit. OH lost out on some high-skilled jobs.

Sununu of NH also voted against, even though GT Solar, another American solar company, is based in that state.

And McCain has passed up all 8 votes, even though there is a large solar project outside of Phoenix waiting to see if the subsidies are extended. That project is suppose to produce 1500-2000 jobs.
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Post by Brando70 »

RobVarak wrote:
Brando70 wrote:What exactly is the myth of feminism? Sarah Palin wouldn't be where she is without feminism.
Feminism as a movement and as a term has been a hollow shell for at least 50 years, and neither has done a damn thing for women. The 60's era "womens" leaders abdicated their duty to women and have been nothing more than craven liberal activists. They have stereotyped their own constituency by boiling them down to single-issue voters (a fact that you reinforced with your defense), wasted decades and millions on the quixotic and ridiculous ERA crusade and generally marginalized themselves by pushing an agenda that was often out of favor with the very people whom they were trying to "advance."

Women would have done as well or better without the Steinems of the world ignoring the social reality of womens' improving lives and creating elaborate persecution myths that did more to undermine the perception of womens' independence than anything "opponents" of women did.

Since WWII, women have progressed through the collective efforts of millions of women who each did their individual part to demonstrate their value and capacity, not through the selfish and short-sighted efforts of a few politically motivated demagogues. Women have torn down the barriers which once confronted them by demonstrating that given the freedom to do so they can manage the entirety of a life, professional, family and personal without special consideration from government or the law.

Women in the US have a varied and multi-faceted political agenda, while the dinosaurs of the feminist movement still cling pathetically to the rapidly-disintegrating life raft of reproductive rights scare tactics. The very fact that these people have perverted their vision of social advancement and equality to the point where it does not include celebrating the fact that a woman may ascend to the vice-presidency is evidence enough of their obsolescence. The T-Rex is always the last to know.
Rob, you ignorant slut.

There is no way women would have advanced as far as they have without political activism. Feminism sparked that activism, getting women to fight in the courts, in statehouses, in Congress, in the workplace, and at home. The entire history of women's rights in the 20th century is one of pushing against barriers, not waiting for those barriers to magically disappear at the whim of men.

Despite the progress women have made, reproduction remains a touchy issue is because it's an issue of control, wrapped in the veil of morality. It's not an issue for men because there are no laws against us buying rubbers, getting a vasectamy, buying ED medication, or abdicating our roles as fathers as long as we pay child support. The law does not attempt to control our right to have sex and reproduce.

That is not the case with women. We're talking about a person's personal freedom to control their body, and yet you want to act like it's some single issue like gun rights or immigration. How can someone be free if they face the possibility of going to drug store and being told they can't get their birth control pills? How does that not infantilize women? Once you've done that, it's not hard to start making all kinds of justifications to keep women from getting equal treatment as men.

There are a number of Republicans who don't support that view. But Palin was brought in specifically to win the conservative base over to McCain, and that wing of the party supports things like a pharmacist's right to refuse filling medications based on religious beliefs or for health insurance to cover birth control medication. It's hard to believe that sort of thing could happen in 21st century America. And you think feminism is outdated?
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Post by Jackdog »

Teal wrote:And, in RING #3!

http://wcbstv.com/politics/paterson.mcc ... 13646.html
:lol: This is just getting better and better...
Wonder why Carol and I didn't get that memo??
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Post by Teal »

JackDog wrote:
Teal wrote:And, in RING #3!

http://wcbstv.com/politics/paterson.mcc ... 13646.html
:lol: This is just getting better and better...
Wonder why Carol and I didn't get that memo??
Is it because you're a couple of, *ahem*..."community organizers"? :lol:

Sorry-hell, that was SO racist of me...
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