OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 2

[JackB1]

Obama's plan to cut personal income tax is a magician's distraction, designed to capture he public's eye while he palms the proceeds of enormous tax increases and sweeps them into his magic hat.

And this brilliant deduction is based on what exactly?

McCain is the one doing his own "magic act" by constantly saying how Obama will raise taxes and he will cut them. I guess if you repeat something enough times, the American public will believe it....e.g. Bush/Cheney: "Sadam has WMD's".

[fsquid]

Obama's plan to cut personal income tax is a magician's distraction, designed to capture he public's eye while he palms the proceeds of enormous tax increases and sweeps them into his magic hat.

Both of their plans are actually almost equal in the total $$ needed to pay for them. The difference is Obama wants to increases taxes for those over $250K per year and cuts for the rest of us, while McCain wants to keep the Bush tax cuts that benefit the wealthy only, intact.

You are forgetting about raising the taxes on corporations which will hurt the lower income people more than the rich. Plus, it will increase the speed of sending jobs overseas.

[wco81]

I totally agree. I think they are equally qualified to be Vice-President.

University of Idaho and Harvard Law produces same qualifications?

[Wilk5280]

** n/m totally uncalled for. **

[XXXIV]

I totally agree. I think they are equally qualified to be Vice-President.

University of Idaho and Harvard Law produces same qualifications?

Idaho sux!

Thats why Im glad Bush went to Yale.

[F308GTB]

I totally agree. I think they are equally qualified to be Vice-President.

University of Idaho and Harvard Law produces same qualifications?

As someone who spent way too many years in higher education at what I would consider 2 top tier institutions in this country (Michigan for undergrad, Rice for masters and doctorate), I would be the first to say where you went to school makes zero difference. It's the person, not the school attended, that is important in the end. Once you establish a career, no one except intellectual snobs cares where you went.

So yes. Harvard Law and Idaho produce the exact same qualifications. In fact, last I checked, to become President at least, the qualifications are set forth in the Constitution:

* be a natural born citizen of the united States
* be at least 35 years old
* have lived in the U.S. for at least 14 years

and the 12th amendment imposes these same qualifications for VP. So, yes, both Obama and Palin are qualified for their respective prospective positions.

[Leebo33]

lol@34

[F308GTB]

* be a natural born citizen of the united States
* be at least 35 years old
* have lived in the U.S. for at least 14 years

It should also be noted that constitutionally there is some debate about the first requirement. McCain being born in the Panama Canal Zone could be judged either way. The requirement is "natural born citizen" and not "born in the US".

See http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/po ... ccain.html for a nice article on the matter.

[Jackdog]

I just heard about this and it made me sick to my stomach. I know most of you won't care about this, but it is very disturbing if you care at all about the humane treatment of animals.

Sara Palin has supported the barbaric "sport" of aerial wolf hunting. This is not a sport at all. Read this article and watch the video. I dont know if she partakes in this, but the fact that she allows it to go on is enough for me. She even placed a $150 bounty for every wolf that was killed. Read the article and watch the video and you may wonder if this woman is indeed "pro life".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/glenn-hur ... 23388.html

The USDA does this for reasons you would never understand unless your a rancher or farmer. It's not a sport. It's called the Predator Control Program. My wife works for the USDA and she tells me it's it's done in many states.

Is this a Palin thing for you? Will it still make you sick knowing that Democratic Governors from the states of Arizona,Colorado,Montana and Wyoming do the same thing?

I am only going to post one link. You can Google each state for the numbers.

http://www.trib.com/articles/2008/08/01 ... 030485.txt

[matthewk]

I just heard about this and it made me sick to my stomach. I know most of you won't care about this, but it is very disturbing if you care at all about the humane treatment of animals.

Sara Palin has supported the barbaric "sport" of aerial wolf hunting. This is not a sport at all. Read this article and watch the video. I dont know if she partakes in this, but the fact that she allows it to go on is enough for me. She even placed a $150 bounty for every wolf that was killed. Read the article and watch the video and you may wonder if this woman is indeed "pro life".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/glenn-hur ... 23388.html

Have you ever been to Alaska? Have you even ever seen a wolf or a deer in person? This is not a "sport", it's a way to keep the wolf population from getting to large. Here in Wisconsin the state actually pays trained snipers to take out part of the deer population because they are too big. If htis was Obama, this would be spun as the Messiah saving the poor defenseless Carabo from the evil wolves.

Again we're back to the whole cruelty to horses dabate with you. Tell you what, why don't you keep all of the wolves as pets in order to save them from being killed. See how weel that works out for 'ya.

Oh, and why is it ok to abort a fetus, but somehow killing wolves is overtly cruel?

We know your agenda. You're scouring Google for anything you can find to hammer on Palin with. The problem is you have no clue as to what you're talking about most of the time, and have zeo interest in finding out the truth. That's what makes ME sick to my stomach.

Edit: It took me all of 30 seconds to find this: http://www.slate.com/id/2199140/

[Jackdog]

lol@34

No doubt. Plus we still have the NFL season to look forward too.

[wco81]

I totally agree. I think they are equally qualified to be Vice-President.

University of Idaho and Harvard Law produces same qualifications?

As someone who spent way too many years in higher education at what I would consider 2 top tier institutions in this country (Michigan for undergrad, Rice for masters and doctorate), I would be the first to say where you went to school makes zero difference. It's the person, not the school attended, that is important in the end. Once you establish a career, no one except intellectual snobs cares where you went.

So yes. Harvard Law and Idaho produce the exact same qualifications. In fact, last I checked, to become President at least, the qualifications are set forth in the Constitution:

* be a natural born citizen of the united States
* be at least 35 years old
* have lived in the U.S. for at least 14 years

and the 12th amendment imposes these same qualifications for VP. So, yes, both Obama and Palin are qualified for their respective prospective positions.

People do care or else they wouldn't try to get their children into the best schools.

Not only that, salary surveys show differences correlating to the institution, so again, someone obviously cares when hiring, promoting and compensating people.

That's not to say someone who went to a lower-tier school can't achieve as much as, or more than someone else who went to a top-tier school.

No school trains their students to assume the highest office in the land or the second highest office. The president-elect will be confronted with issues and information few are privy to. There will be a lot of learning on the job.

So were you making a general comment that education doesn't matter or that in this specific case, she's trumped Obama despite his fancier degree?

[matthewk]

Both of their plans are actually almost equal in the total $$ needed to pay for them. The difference is Obama wants to increases taxes for those over $250K per year and cuts for the rest of us, while McCain wants to keep the Bush tax cuts that benefit the wealthy only, intact.

I'm not wealthy, but I do recall the Bush tax cuts helping me.

[Jackdog]

We know your agenda. You're scouring Google for anything you can find to hammer on Palin with. The problem is you have no clue as to what you're talking about most of the time, and have zeo interest in finding out the truth. That's what makes ME sick to my stomach.

The tasteless comments about Palin's family. The sexist comments about Palin's career and parenting skills make me sick. And I'm the guy that called Hillary a c***. I had no idea a Liberal Democrat could be so intolerant.

[Jackdog]

Both of their plans are actually almost equal in the total $$ needed to pay for them. The difference is Obama wants to increases taxes for those over $250K per year and cuts for the rest of us, while McCain wants to keep the Bush tax cuts that benefit the wealthy only, intact.

I'm not wealthy, but I do recall the Bush tax cuts helping me.

Do you recall the thread where he was jonesing for his stimulus check?

[F308GTB]

People do care or else they wouldn't try to get their children into the best schools.

Why? Intellectual snobbery. Parents trying to get kids in the "best" schools for undergraduate? What a waste of money. Honestly, does an undergrad degree prepare you for a career? Perhaps I'm biased as an engineer, but I look back at my undergraduate education at Michigan and consider it a waste of money. The same curriculum is taught at the nearly every engineering school, and that curriculum is nothing compared to on-the-job training. I'm thankful I was in a co-op program in school whereby I alternated each semester between work and school. I learn more working each semester than I did in school.

Not only that, salary surveys show differences correlating to the institution, so again, someone obviously cares when hiring, promoting and compensating people.

While it's not scientific, take a gander at http://forums.wsj.com/viewtopic.php?p=108263. I don't doubt that beginning salaries may be a function of the school attended, but a few years down the road, really it's not a factor. Experience counts WAY more than school. If not, your employer is an idiot.

And http://www.kiplinger.com/columns/drt/ar ... 80903.html

No school trains their students to assume the highest office in the land or the second highest office. The president-elect will be confronted with issues and information few are privy to. There will be a lot of learning on the job.

So were you making a general comment that education doesn't matter or that in this specific case, she's trumped Obama despite his fancier degree?

Exactly. No school trains their students, and no career can fully prepare someone to be Pres or VP. There are aspects of your career and experiences that can help, but ultimately it's a lot of on-the-job training.

So yes, education doesn't matter. She hasn't trumped Obama, nor has Obama trumped Palin when it comes to education. Further, in my opinion, because of the OJT issue, neither (nor Biden or McCain) will hit day 1 fully prepared.

Goes back to my post a few pages back - experience is a red herring.

[wco81]

I saw a different study, talking about salaries 10 or 20 years out of school.

I think a lot of it had to do with that first job, because if you start at a higher level, you're going to progress farther. Now, some of the institutional factor is about networking, not necessarily that employers are shopping for certain schools.


So if education doesn't matter and experience doesn't matter, what are you left with?

[RobVarak]

Have you given up on the what constitutes a war victory/defeat argument?

I don't think there's really anything to add. By every reasonable political or military definition, withdrawing in 2006-2007 would have been a defeat. I said that earlier and haven't seen any evidence that would make me change my mind.

[Feanor]

Yeah, I thought as much.

[F308GTB]

I saw a different study, talking about salaries 10 or 20 years out of school.

I think a lot of it had to do with that first job, because if you start at a higher level, you're going to progress farther. Now, some of the institutional factor is about networking, not necessarily that employers are shopping for certain schools.


So if education doesn't matter and experience doesn't matter, what are you left with?

I said education doesn't matter. I didn't say that about experience. Experience can help, but it does not set you up for performance in the job. Other things you are left with? Gut feel/sixth sense. Integrity (based on past performance). Vision and the drive to fulfill that vision (which depends on integrity in large part). Character.

I saw one part of the Obama interview with Bill O'Reilly last night. He was pinned down when asked about the surge. O'Reilly gave him credit for "being right" on the initial vote on whether to invade Iraq. But history does show the surge worked and Obama simply would not admit he's wrong. Sure he has to give the political answer, but it takes a bigger man to say he was wrong. His hubris, for me at least, is a major turn-off.

[wco81]

But history does show the surge worked and Obama simply would not admit he's wrong. Sure he has to give the political answer, but it takes a bigger man to say he was wrong. His hubris, for me at least, is a major turn-off.

That depends on what the objectives of the surge were. American casualties are down but is Iraq safe for Iraqis? The factions have been segregated from each other and the political reconciliation is a work in progress.

Obviously people have different criteria of what constitutes success.

The country has lost a lot of lives and seen an exodus, often by the most educated. In relative terms, things may be better, but you can't call the whole enterprise (the whole war) a victory or pronounce "mission accomplished," especially since the mission du jour doesn't relate to the reason there was political support for going in.

[JackB1]

Have you ever been to Alaska? Have you even ever seen a wolf or a deer in person? This is not a "sport", it's a way to keep the wolf population from getting to large. Here in Wisconsin the state actually pays trained snipers to take out part of the deer population because they are too big. If htis was Obama, this would be spun as the Messiah saving the poor defenseless Carabo from the evil wolves.

Again we're back to the whole cruelty to horses dabate with you. Tell you what, why don't you keep all of the wolves as pets in order to save them from being killed. See how weel that works out for 'ya.

Oh, and why is it ok to abort a fetus, but somehow killing wolves is overtly cruel?

We know your agenda. You're scouring Google for anything you can find to hammer on Palin with. The problem is you have no clue as to what you're talking about most of the time, and have zeo interest in finding out the truth. That's what makes ME sick to my stomach.

Edit: It took me all of 30 seconds to find this: http://www.slate.com/id/2199140/

As a matter of fact, yes, I have been to Alaska. It is a way of keeping the wolf population down, but to keep the caribou and moose populations up, for you know what? More hunting! Wolves are a natural predator that weed out the sick and the weak and does it the way nature intended. I did a lot more research on the subject that apparently you have. They call it "population control" because it's the only way that this barbaric hunting method is allowed by law. If you dig a little under the surface, you will find out the truth behind this dirty little secret in Alaska. This stuff is going on. It's not made up by me or anyone else with an "agenda". The wolf population is getting so small, they don't even know their current numbers. They estimate around 5 to 10,000 wolves to over 200,000 moose. The grizzlies and black bear population has much more impact on the moose. You move to Alaska, you have to deal with the moose, bears, wolves and whatever was there first.

And congratulations...you know how to google. What did that prove?

And who said it was "ok to abort a fetus"? Are you insane? Let's get this straight. I am 100% against abortion, but I also don't believe the govt should be deciding this for us. Just like the govt had no business in the Terry Shiavo matter. No different.

[JackB1]

lol@34

he makes me laugh

[JackB1]

Both of their plans are actually almost equal in the total $$ needed to pay for them. The difference is Obama wants to increases taxes for those over $250K per year and cuts for the rest of us, while McCain wants to keep the Bush tax cuts that benefit the wealthy only, intact.

I'm not wealthy, but I do recall the Bush tax cuts helping me.

Do you recall the thread where he was jonesing for his stimulus check?

Even with that extra $1200, we are still earning less than we did 8 years ago.

[pk500]

I just heard about this and it made me sick to my stomach. I know most of you won't care about this, but it is very disturbing if you care at all about the humane treatment of animals.

Sara Palin has supported the barbaric "sport" of aerial wolf hunting. This is not a sport at all. Read this article and watch the video. I dont know if she partakes in this, but the fact that she allows it to go on is enough for me. She even placed a $150 bounty for every wolf that was killed. Read the article and watch the video and you may wonder if this woman is indeed "pro life".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/glenn-hur ... 23388.html

For the last few summers, there were packs of coyotes in the farm field behind me that would roam all night, attacking pets, livestock, deer and other small animals. You could hear them singing as they swarmed around prey.

My kids also couldn't do things like camp out in the backyard or chase fireflies at night because those f*ckers were just 20 yards away from the edge of our property at times. They even crossed the cornfield and entered our property during the winter, foraging for food. I saw the tracks. I used to like to take walks in the plowed cornfield under the full moon in the winter with a cigar.

The coyotes have been much less active this summer. I heard around the neighborhood that one of the local farmers took out the alpha male of the pack with a shotgun or rifle, which then disperses the pack.

If I ever found out which farmer did that, I would buy him a beer and shake his hand. I don't give a sh*t if he killed that coyote from the air, standing up or laying on his belly. Ding-dong, those f*cking coyotes are almost gone.

It's one thing to sit in a suburban tract and complain about cruelty to wild animals. It's another thing to have those wild animals encroach more and more into your space and threaten your pets and loved ones to give you some perspective.

Take care,
PK