OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 2

[RobVarak]

That's what struck me the most about his speech last Thursday. Yes, it was uplifting. Yes, it was intelligent. Yes, it was beautiful oratory.

But when he entered the "laundry list" segment of the speech, outlining every program he was going to accomplish during his term, two thoughts immediately entered my mind:

1. How will he pay for this while still cutting taxes for the middle class, as he promised?

It's all very thoroughly explained on his website.

I thought the few lines that Fred Thompson directed at Obama's tax promises were among the highlights from his speech last night...although I could really do without both sides characterizing every tax hike or cut as the largest in history. As the economy grows so does the size of every hike or cut. It gets tiresome. But still, his main point is effectively made. It's even better if you see the delivery, which was deft.

We need a President who understands that you don't make citizens prosperous by making Washington richer, and you don't lift an economic downturn by imposing one of the largest tax increases in American history.

Now our opponents tell you not to worry about their tax increases.

They tell you they are not going to tax your family.

No, they're just going to tax "businesses"! So unless you buy something from a "business", like groceries or clothes or gasoline ... or unless you get a paycheck from a big or a small "business", don't worry ... it's not going to affect you...

They say they are not going to take any water out of your side of the bucket, just the "other" side of the bucket! That's their idea of tax reform.

[Slumberland]

I like the video screen! Empty hall was strange at first, but who knows... maybe a less orgasmic, messianic setting will work in the Repubs' favor.

Joe Lieberman disgusts me. Especially after Obama made it a point to go to Connecticut and speak on his behalf after Lamont won the Democratic primaries in '06. Especially cheesed by the intimation that Democrats can't be trusted with commander-in-chiefdom in anything but "normal times". Hopefully he will let us know when they get here so we can vote Dem again, if so inclined.

My only other spit-take moment was Bush using the phrase "wasteful spending" with any sense of moral authority in that clearly pre-taped video segment.

[EZSnappin]

He also suggested the "Surge" to end the war in Iraq faster. It's worked so well that we turned over the Anbar Provence(Formally The Triangle Of Death) to the Iraqi Goverment yesterday. That was huge news for those of us that's been to that provence.

This truly is amazing, uplifting news; however, it isn't because of the surge (except maybe in the slightest, indirect way). It is because we co-opted the Sunni forces in the region, arming them and incorporating them into the process. That policy came about before the surge, and I couldn't be happier that it has had such a powerful effect. Of course, if we hadn't set them all free by disbanding their army in 2003 it might never have had to happen, but that is neither here nor there; "hindsight is 20/20" etc.

I never felt that Iraq was a war we should have engaged in (not with so much left undone in Afghanistan), but I damn well cheer every time I see news like this. It seems we've turned a corner in many ways, which should be trumpeted from the rooftops. I just wish it had come about quicker and easier, with less lose of life for all sides.

[pk500]

If McCain had a plan that would get us completely off foreign oil ahead of Obama and wasn't so war crazy, I would vote across party lines.

I recall Obama stating that he would get us 100% off foreign oil in ten years. Any idea how he would go about that? I think it's ludicrous to think we can do that in 10 years, if at all in my lifetime.

To be fair, people probably thought Kennedy was insane in 1961 when he said the U.S. would put a man on the Moon within 10 years, and we did it.

The technical complexity of putting a man on the Moon -- especially with 1960s technology -- exceeds that of the U.S. developing homegrown energy sources, I think.

But the desire to shed foreign energy has logistical and political hurdles to clear that the Moon program did not. NASA had to worry about three vehicles -- the Saturn V, Command Module and Lunar Module -- while there are millions of vehicles on American roads that now have engines based on gasoline consumption. Plus there's the huge political clout of Big Oil that will do anything to slow alternative energy development unless it can get a piece of the pie.

We shall see ... we shall see.

Take care,
PK

[RobVarak]

This truly is amazing, uplifting news; however, it isn't because of the surge (except maybe in the slightest, indirect way). It is because we co-opted the Sunni forces in the region, arming them and incorporating them into the process. That policy came about before the surge,

True, but it wouldn't have been possible if we had turned tail. And the chances of the Sunni sheihks reverting back to a courtship with the foreign fighters was reduced by the surge, both because it put us in a stronger position and also because there were a hell of a lot fewer foreign fighters still walking upright.

[EZSnappin]

This truly is amazing, uplifting news; however, it isn't because of the surge (except maybe in the slightest, indirect way). It is because we co-opted the Sunni forces in the region, arming them and incorporating them into the process. That policy came about before the surge,

True, but it wouldn't have been possible if we had turned tail. And the chances of the Sunni sheihks reverting back to a courtship with the foreign fighters was reduced by the surge, both because it put us in a stronger position and also because there were a hell of a lot fewer foreign fighters still walking upright.

But the surge was not primarily aimed at Anbar; Baghdad's relative quiet can also be laid at the feet of Al-Sadr and his ceasefire (which also pre-dates the surge); all things are tied together into a web that disallows easy credit or blame. To say McCain's support of the surge was the act worthy of credit is dubious, which was all I really was getting at. However, if all the surge was was a symbolic gesture (it wasn't, but if it were), if the result is a stronger, safer Iraq than count me in as a cheerleader.

[webdanzer]

Repubs go for 'The Hills' and 'Gossip Girl' voting block tonight:

The boyfriend of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin's unwed, pregnant daughter will join the family of the Republican vice presidential candidate at the GOP convention in St. Paul, Minn.

Levi Johnston's mother said her 18-year-old son left Alaska on Tuesday morning to join the Palin family at the convention where Sen. John McCain will officially receive the Republican nomination for president. The boy's mother, Sherry Johnston, said there had been no pressure put on her son to marry 17-year-old Bristol Palin and the two teens had made plans to wed before it was known she was pregnant.

"This is just a bonus," Johnston said.

The young man's presence could set off a media frenzy around the young couple as photographers and cameramen scramble for pictures of the two teenagers. On Monday, Palin and her husband, Todd, said their 17-year-old daughter, Bristol, planned to have the baby and wed a young man identified only as Levi. The family asked the media to respect the young couple's privacy as has been the tradition with children of candidates


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 657D38.DTL

Gotta love the 'bonus' line: Knock up a poli's daughter, earn a trip to the national convention. Bonus!

[JackB1]

This truly is amazing, uplifting news; however, it isn't because of the surge (except maybe in the slightest, indirect way). It is because we co-opted the Sunni forces in the region, arming them and incorporating them into the process. That policy came about before the surge,

True, but it wouldn't have been possible if we had turned tail. And the chances of the Sunni sheihks reverting back to a courtship with the foreign fighters was reduced by the surge, both because it put us in a stronger position and also because there were a hell of a lot fewer foreign fighters still walking upright.

I am glad "The Surge" has reduced the violence, but again I ask the same question that you never hear an answer for.... what happens when we leave? We can't stay there forever and we have to leave at some point, so what's to stop the violence from going back to pre-surge and pre invasion levels?

[wco81]

I want to see a cite about Obama claiming we'll be off foreign oil in 10 years.

Nobody believes we have enough oil in this country.

T. Boone Pickens has talked about increasing electricity generation from wind power to 20% of all electricity generation in 10 years and then converting a number of cars to natural gas.

That's the only 10-year energy plan I've heard circulated and Pickens, surprise has a lot of holdings in wind and natural gas.

[JackB1]

How about Afghanistan? What do you think Obama is going to do about that war? Don't you think we should be there? Obama does. He also sounds like he would go into Pakistan. In his speech at the DNC he said "John McCain likes to say that he'll follow bin Laden to the Gates of Hell - but he won't even go to the cave where he lives." He's in Pakistain.

I am all for getting Bin Laden no matter what country he's in so Obama's comment doesn't bother me at all. But to think we aren't going to have to have troops in combat if Obama is in the White House is just dreaming.

I think the situation in Afghanistan needs to be continually re-evaluated.
And if we know Bin Laden is in Pakistan, why can't we get him? We sure found Sadaam when we wanted to. It infuriates me to no end the man responsible for an attack on our soil is still a free man and people are so casual about it. Where is the public outcry? It's like if when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and we just sat there and didn't do anything about it.
You don't think that if we invested all the resources and money we have spent in Iraq towards hunting down the man who DID attack our country, we would have captured or killed him by now? I don't know anyone who wouldn't trade one dead Bin Laden for all that's happened in Iraq.

[SPTO]

Good morning guys!

I know my comments don't get much play but I know that a couple eyes are at least reading with great interest.

Anyways here we go:

1. About foreign oil, I believe it can be done. Just look at Brazil which has been largely off oil for nearly 20 years now. They use ethanol based fuels for their cars which would be a bit impractical for a nation the size of America but I do think that a mixture of ethanol, hybrids, even solar (i've heard they've made great advances there) and yes even some oil can work. I don't think that the oil reserves should be tapped but I do believe that the Alberta tar sands here in Canada should be a shared resource between both nations much like how hydro-electricity is shared between Canada and the US in the North East.

2. I'll agree that the surge has worked for the most part. In fact, aside from some skirmishes you really don't hear too much about anything in Iraq although Afghanistan is becoming a bit of a sore spot again. The main question is, what happens when the US leaves. I don't know if either McCain or Obama has any idea what would happen. Remember we're dealing with a nation that is made up of different tribal cliques. I've heard some analysts say that without a US prescence Iraq would devolve back into a nation with a strong man leader like Saddam or even worse, a theocratic government not wholly unlike Iran.

3. As for last night....I'm very disappointed in Lieberman. He showed very little class in going after Obama as much as he did after how much Obama supported him in '06. I realize it's politics so I shouldn't be surprised. Oh and yes, those guys need pitchers of water or something because the coughing was getting highly distracting.

4. I'll be looking forward to Palin's speech tonight. If only to see how she handles the pressure of this big moment. I hope she keeps the colloquilism (sp) to the min. and stick to the issues. I won't mind a funny line or two but if we get something like the champion snowblower (or whatever it was) line then it'll just prove to those who are attacking her that she's not worthy even if the rest of her presentation is rock solid.

[backbreaker]

I want to see a cite about Obama claiming we'll be off foreign oil in 10 years.

Nobody believes we have enough oil in this country.

T. Boone Pickens has talked about increasing electricity generation from wind power to 20% of all electricity generation in 10 years and then converting a number of cars to natural gas.

That's the only 10-year energy plan I've heard circulated and Pickens, surprise has a lot of holdings in wind and natural gas.

He never said that we would be off foreign oil in 10 years in his speech. He specifically stated that we would be off Middle Eastern Oil in 10 years.

[RobVarak]

T. Boone Pickens has talked about increasing electricity generation from wind power to 20% of all electricity generation in 10 years and then converting a number of cars to natural gas.

That's the only 10-year energy plan I've heard circulated and Pickens, surprise has a lot of holdings in wind and natural gas.

Bastard! Trying to make even more money. Do the rich never stop trying to get richer?

[Naples39]

I want to see a cite about Obama claiming we'll be off foreign oil in 10 years.

I'm sure this is the quote everyone is thinking of, from his convention speech;

And for the sake of our economy, our security, and the future of our planet, I will set a clear goal as President: in ten years, we will finally end our dependence on oil from the Middle East.

Okay, he doesn't exactly say we'll be 'off' foreign oil, but the sentiment is pretty clear.




Another quote for those using Palin's daughter to criticize the candidate;

"We deeply regret and are profoundly saddened by the decision of People magazine to print a cover story featuring our daughter Chelsea," the statement from the president and first lady said. "For over six years, the media has understood and respected the unique situation facing Chelsea as she grows up in the spotlight focused on her parents."

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/ ... linton.01/

[wco81]

He never said that we would be off foreign oil in 10 years in his speech. He specifically stated that we would be off Middle Eastern Oil in 10 years.

"Would" or "should"?

It's nonsensical anyways. Oil is fungible so if we buy the same amount, the Arabs still get paid because our consumption is such a huge part of the market right now that it would keep prices up.

And there seems to be a premium on light sweet crude, which comes from Saudi Arabia.

Things like tar sands and shale are expensive to extract and the quality of the stuff isn't as good for refining.

[wco81]

T. Boone Pickens has talked about increasing electricity generation from wind power to 20% of all electricity generation in 10 years and then converting a number of cars to natural gas.

That's the only 10-year energy plan I've heard circulated and Pickens, surprise has a lot of holdings in wind and natural gas.

Bastard! Trying to make even more money. Do the rich never stop trying to get richer?

No but pretending that he's doing it for some selfless reason is absurd.

That's how he's portraying himself, like some American Prometheus and how he already has more money than he'll ever use, as if to head off questions about why he's spending tens of millions on this campaign.

[RobVarak]

Jared and others,


Ooops So it seems that Sarah Palin wasn't a member of the AIP.

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian ... the-a.html

Dexter Clark, husband of Lynette and a vice chairman of the Alaska Independence Party, said that when his wife told reporters that Palin had been an AIP member she was "acting on information from Mark Chryson," the party's regional chair for Wasilla, Palin's hometown. The 1994 convention was held in Wasilla, where Palin was a city councilmember at the time. Chryson "has repeatedly said to me personally and my wife, Lynette, and groups of party members at large, that at that 1994 convention, Sarah and Todd Palin attended and registered as members," Dexter Clark told Mother Jones.

Asked how Palin could have been a member, when state records did not indicate Palin ever registered as an AIP member, Chyrson, in an interview with Mother Jones, backed off his account. "What could have been the confusion—her husband was a member of the party. He was at the convention. She could have been considered—it might have been thought she was a member then." Talking Points Memo has reported that Todd Palin was a member of the AIP from 1995 to 2002, with the exception of a short period in 2000 when he was undeclared.

Chyrson said he did not remember seeing Sarah Palin at the 1994 convention: "I don't, no. I was working behind the scenes. Back then I was only vaguely familiar with her. I would not have recognized her. I had just met her. I probably would not have recognized her." He added that Sarah Palin did not play "an active role in the party" or to speak out for its causes.

Not being registered as an AIP member did not keep some Alaskans from being supporters of the party and its aims. Jack Coghill, the lieutenant governor of Alaska from 1990 to 1994 and a candidate for governor in 1994 on the AIP ticket, told Mother Jones that being friendly with the AIP and a registered Republican was "common" in the 1990s. Might Palin had had a similar relationship with the party? Given her husband's long-time membership in the group, Palin was likely aware of the group's tenets. And in 2008, as governor, she submitted a welcoming video to the AIP convention in Fairbanks. "Your party plays an important role in our state's politics," she said. "I've always said that competition is so good, and that applies to political parties as well… We have a great promise: to be a self-sufficient state." She closed by saying, "Good luck on a successful and inspiring convention. Keep up the good work, and God bless you.""

[RobVarak]

No but pretending that he's doing it for some selfless reason is absurd.

That's how he's portraying himself, like some American Prometheus and how he already has more money than he'll ever use, as if to head off questions about why he's spending tens of millions on this campaign.

My God, man! It's marketing. Companies do this sort of thing all the time.

[wco81]

Who else is claiming their venture is altruistic and is aimed at preventing the "greatest" wealth transfer, etc.?

Increasing use of wind power is a good idea but his projections are unrealistic. He hasn't spelled out how he's going to secure rights of way but since he's trying to garner political support for a business venture, it wouldn't be surprising if he's looking to muscle through resistance from affected land owners in the name of national interest or national security.

He would probably need some intervention to get the auto manufacturers to convert cars to natural gas, not to mention the big changes to infrastructure to support refueling.

[FatPitcher]

I want to see a cite about Obama claiming we'll be off foreign oil in 10 years.

Nobody believes we have enough oil in this country.

T. Boone Pickens has talked about increasing electricity generation from wind power to 20% of all electricity generation in 10 years and then converting a number of cars to natural gas.

That's the only 10-year energy plan I've heard circulated and Pickens, surprise has a lot of holdings in wind and natural gas.

Al Gore has made plenty off the global warming scare. But maybe he deserves it, because he supplied all the wind himself.

[SPTO]

I want to see a cite about Obama claiming we'll be off foreign oil in 10 years.

Nobody believes we have enough oil in this country.

T. Boone Pickens has talked about increasing electricity generation from wind power to 20% of all electricity generation in 10 years and then converting a number of cars to natural gas.

That's the only 10-year energy plan I've heard circulated and Pickens, surprise has a lot of holdings in wind and natural gas.

I've seen his commercial on TV. He seems like an interesting guy. He has a background in oil and if an oilman thinks wind and electricity generation can work then maybe we should listen to him. I mean oil tycoons don't go throwing money into things that don't work y'know?

[FatPitcher]

He also suggested the "Surge" to end the war in Iraq faster. It's worked so well that we turned over the Anbar Provence(Formally The Triangle Of Death) to the Iraqi Goverment yesterday. That was huge news for those of us that's been to that provence.

This truly is amazing, uplifting news; however, it isn't because of the surge (except maybe in the slightest, indirect way). It is because we co-opted the Sunni forces in the region, arming them and incorporating them into the process. That policy came about before the surge, and I couldn't be happier that it has had such a powerful effect. Of course, if we hadn't set them all free by disbanding their army in 2003 it might never have had to happen, but that is neither here nor there; "hindsight is 20/20" etc.

I never felt that Iraq was a war we should have engaged in (not with so much left undone in Afghanistan), but I damn well cheer every time I see news like this. It seems we've turned a corner in many ways, which should be trumpeted from the rooftops. I just wish it had come about quicker and easier, with less lose of life for all sides.

The change in the Iraq situation is a result of a number of factors:
- Iraqi citizens finally realizing who their real enemy was (but the surge lifting the threat of al-qaida intimidation).
- Sunni sheiks realizing "if you can't beat them, join them" (but the surge convincing them that despite the Democrats' rhetoric and rise to power, America wasn't leaving until Iraq was more stable)
- al-Sadr being scared shitless (mostly because of trained Iraqi troops finally coming online, but also because of the added U.S. troops, most of which went to pacify the Baghdad slums where al-Sadr's operation was the strongest).

Sure, "send more troops!" by itself, if indeed that was the complete extent of what McCain advocated (anyone know if there was more to his plan?), wouldn't have accomplished everything I listed, but you got to give the man credit for a couple things: 1) it was a critical part of the solution, and he'd been saying it for years, and 2) it was unpopular at the time. In fact, his opponent is only his opponent because he advocated giving up instead.

[FatPitcher]

I want to see a cite about Obama claiming we'll be off foreign oil in 10 years.

Nobody believes we have enough oil in this country.

T. Boone Pickens has talked about increasing electricity generation from wind power to 20% of all electricity generation in 10 years and then converting a number of cars to natural gas.

That's the only 10-year energy plan I've heard circulated and Pickens, surprise has a lot of holdings in wind and natural gas.

I've seen his commercial on TV. He seems like an interesting guy. He has a background in oil and if an oilman thinks wind and electricity generation can work then maybe we should listen to him. I mean oil tycoons don't go throwing money into things that don't work y'know?

What about the Jets?

[SPTO]

What about the Jets?

?

Care to elaborate?

[JackB1]

Sure, "send more troops!" by itself, if indeed that was the complete extent of what McCain advocated (anyone know if there was more to his plan?), wouldn't have accomplished everything I listed, but you got to give the man credit for a couple things: 1) it was a critical part of the solution, and he'd been saying it for years, and 2) it was unpopular at the time. In fact, his opponent is only his opponent because he advocated giving up instead.

So all of the experts advising Bush from the start of the war didn't realize how many troops we would need to stabilize Iraq? Why did it take almost 5 years to come to this conclusion? If we can't properly plan out an operation like this, how would we do against a MAJOR enemy like Korea, China or Russia?