Racing Sim Thread, Part II

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:41 pm

Once again Simbin and Steam have an utterly baffling release schedule for GTR Evolution on Steam and in retail stores. The retail version is already out in various locations in Europe. The official release date for US is listed on EB, Amazon, etc. as 9/2 for $19.99 for the full DVD verions of the game which features:

GTR Evolution:

Complete Race 07 package as well as the following new content,

Nürburgring
- Nürburgring Nordschleife
- Nürburgring GP
- Nürburgring Endurance Layout

Production Class
- Audi R8
- Dodge Viper SRT/10
- Gumpert Apollo
- Koenigsegg CCX

GT Pro
- Aston Martin DBR9
- Audi R8 GT Concept
- Corvette C5 R
- Corvette C6 R
- Dodge Viper GTS/R
- Gumpert Apollo GT
- Koenigsegg CCGT
- Lister Storm
- Saleen S7-R

GT Sport
- BMW M3 GTR
- Corvette C6 GT2
- Marcos MarcoRelly GTS
- Mosler MT900R
- Seat Toledo GT
- Spyker C8 Spyder GT2R
- SunRed SR21

GT Club
- Aston Martin DBRS9
- BMW Z4 GTR
- Dodge Viper Comp. Coupe
- Gillet Vertigo Streiff
- Seat Cupra GT

Sounds like a decent package for $19.99, especially if you do not already have Race 07 or GTR 2. However, here is what was just posted on Steam's website:

GTR: Evolution, the latest installment in the popular RACE franchise, is now available for pre-purchase via Steam. Those who pre-purchase the game via Steam before it is launched on September 1st will immediately receive the complete version of Race 2007 free of charge for only $35.99. Current Owners of Race 07 can pre-order GTR Evolution for $17.99. Save 10% when you pre-purchase before Sept 1st.

Wow Steam! Thanks. If I don't already have Race 07, I can pay almost double the price of what it is in the retail store to have digital download, as opposed to an actual DVD. What a bargain! And I only have to wait about 2 weeks more than the European release of the same game. Excellent.

I am all for digital distribution, in fact it is my preference and I have supported Valve by purchasing all their recent Half-Life 2 releases through Steam, but those releases provided some actual incentive, getting the game earlier or at least immediately, getting the game cheaper, etc.

These Simbin/Steam releases of Race, Race07, and now GTR Evolution have all followed this same pattern. Later than the actual retail release, and more expensive. Makes absolutely no sense.

This may be the first Simbin title I don't pick up. I have already seen reviews stating that the current mod community versions of the Green Hell available for rFactor, Race 07, GTL, and GTR2 may be just as good if not better than this "new" Simbin version. Oh well, enough my ranting.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:41 pm

Legends Cars released for rFactor:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... nds%20Cars

Very eager to try these.

And for those who like dirt oval racing with rFactor, Midgets have been released:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... R%20Midget

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:50 am

Move over Meganes, the new king of rFactor fun is here! Man, these Legends Cars are an almost perfect mix of speed, sliding and fun. Super job on this mod!

We must race these soon. These are a MUST download, boys! I've added my RealFeel settings to the thread, too.

Take care,
PK

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:11 pm

NAGT from The Pits, probably the longest mod in production for rFactor (it started before rFactor was even released 3 years ago), has just been released over on Race2Play. You need to register with them (it's free), and then you will be able to click on the "Get NAGT now" link here:

http://www.race2play.com/special/nagt

This mod closely resembles the Speed World Challenge GT series and has the following cars:

Aston Martin DBRS9
Cadillac CTS-V
Corvette C6
Mustang Cobra
Pontiac GTO
Porsche 996 GT3
Viper CC
Volvo S60-R

There is a nice manual available here, that has specific realfeel settings for each car:

http://copperquarter.com/NAGTmanual.pdf

-------------------------------------------------------
Also, I completely agree with Paul that everyone has got to try out the Legends mod he linked to above. The Legends cars in iRacing are what got me hooked, and this rFactor mod is even more fun than that. They are fun on road tracks and ovals. We need to race them soon.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:21 am

I'm not keen at all on the decision by the US Pits to stiff users of DX7 and DX8 with the NAGT mod.

Many other mods have graphics that work with all versions of Direct X from DX7 onward, and it's not like this mod had limited development time in which graphics could be adapted to work with all levels of DX.

Oh, well: I'm sure this will bring out calls of "Get a new video card!" Sort of tough when you're playing on a laptop ... A Radeon X1400 is what I have, and I don't want to sacrifice framerates just so I can run DX9.

Disappointing, especially since some cars will not work at all without DX9.

rFactor is designed around DX 7, 8 and 9, and all mods should do the same -- especially mods that have been THREE YEARS in the making.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:54 am

Took an extending testing spin with the NAGT mod tonight in the Caddy, Vette, Aston and Viper, and I'm sorry to say I'm underwhelmed.

First, the good things. Or more accurately, countering some of the complaints. I really like the tire model. You can keep the tires in the 190-205 F range if you don't slide all over the racetrack. This isn't a drifting mod; these cars don't run in 30-minute touring car races. If you treat the tires with respect, they will provide excellent grip in the 190-205 F range. I really like how the tire model punishes you for sliding too much. Well done.

Plus, much ado about nothing regarding the cockpit interiors. Yes, they're plain. But they're not horrible, by any stretch. Some of the complaints here made me think that I would see cockpits like Codemasters' original TOCA game back in the late 90s. Hardly.

Also, the Caddy, Vete, Aston and Viper each looked fine and had acceptable solo framerates with my machine running on DX 7. I'm still not happy that certain cars don't run right or well in DX 7/8, but the four previously mentioned cars run fine, with proper mirrors.

But it's time for the other shoe to drop, sadly. This mod really falls flat with its physics and suspension modeling.

The physics of the four cars that I drove, which have unique characteristics, didn't feel that much different. And that's because I think the suspensions for these cars have flaws. They lack the wonderful "feel" of mods built with proper suspensions, usually with carFactory.

Sorry, but this mod just feels dead at the wheel. You feel constant forces, but absolutely nothing subtle through the steering rack when driving this mod with RealFeel. Just a constant tire grip force, almost like you'd feel when running Leo's FFB plug-in with Low in-game FFB settings.

I thought maybe the problem was dodgy suggested RealFeel settings by the modders, and it was. The MaxForceAtSteeringRack figure of 3500 is much too high for the forces generated by these cars. I tested numerous laps with all four cars at Mid-Ohio and Oulton Island GP 2005 -- two of the best test tracks for RealFeel in rFactor due to their accurate bump simulation, elevation changes and varying corners -- with MoTec, and the MaxForceAtSteeringRack should be set around 2600, based on MoTeC telemetry. But even setting RealFeel with that proper force figure, this mod is dead at the wheel.

There's no subtlety in steering rack forces through the suspension at all. For comparison, I jumped straight from a Viper to a Caterham -- which was developed to work perfectly with RealFeel -- and the difference was startling. The Caterham had all sorts of minute forces being transmitted through the wheel at Mid-Ohio. The car felt alive, whereas the Viper, Vette, Caddy and Aston I just drove around the same track felt like a Barcalounger.

I suppose if you don't insist on using RealFeel as I do, this mod has real promise. But if you're a RealFeel zealot like me, this mod's suspensions just aren't designed to work with RealFeel, especially not at the defaults suggested by the modders.

Too bad, as I know plenty of hard work went into this mod.

But NAGT just lacks any feel compared to quality mods that work well with RealFeel and were either built with proper suspensions or built with carFactory, such as Caterham, RealFeel-tweaked rTrainers, Historic GT & Touring, 1955 F1, Grand Prix 1979 and more.

Take care,
PK

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:02 pm

Hey Paul, thanks for the NAGT impressions as I did not end up having any time to install and try it out. I was just about to tell you to post your feedback to Jan over at The Pits, as that mod group is one of the best at taking constructive criticism, then I see you already have a great post going on with them over at RSC:

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=327119

Well done. Hopefully, they can apply some of your feedback or give you some ideas on how to improve your experience.

PS - I don't know who is responsible for titles around here, but I humbly dub you the official racing sim guru of DSP. I always thought you would fully appreciate the PC racing sim world and I am glad that it seems to have worked out that way. Keep up the good work. Someday maybe we can all race again.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:26 pm

Don:

You are the first and only sim racing buddha. Or sim racing buddha emeritus, you old f*ck. (I'm probably older than you.

)

I must confess that I may have jumped the gun a bit on NAGT. I don't think I really understood what kinds of cars run in the Speed World GT Challenge, but Jan Kohl has kindly and gently shown me the light.

I thought SWGTC cars were pure GT cars, like FIA GT's or ALMS cars. Silly me! They're basically production cars with roll cages on tires that are damn close to stock.

Now that I know that, thanks to Jan, I probably judged this mod unfairly. I have reinstalled it and hope to give it another go this week once I unearth myself from all of this night time MotoGP work.

Take care,
PK

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:25 pm

I'll have to check it out also, you know its right up my alley!

I've finally gotten to play rFactor and GTR2 again after a long hiatus, so I'm sure a poker night will be in our future soon. I was also talking rFactor up to my step-brother all weekend at the Grand-Am race, so I hope to have another body for our races.

Still no love in the form of an rFactor version of the NJ Motorsports Park. Of course, I'm sure those dust clouds are tough to code!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:58 am

OK, time for a mea culpa from me.

After reading Jan's informative, calm, mature responses to my original criticisms of this mod, I gave it another go last night. I'm now a believer.

I'm guilty of two mistakes in my first impressions of this mod. One, I completely misinterpreted what this series was all about. I saw GT, and I immediately thought these were GT cars like those that compete in the FIA GT Championship or ALMS. Thanks to Jan and others, I've learned that's not the case. These cars are pretty much production vehicles with roll cages bolted in that run on a pretty primitive racing tire, not a purpose-built race car.

So once I wrapped my head around that fact, this mod came alive. These cars aren't as nimble as highly tuned sports cars or even a well-tuned FWD touring car. They can be beasts, depending on the car you choose, and must be driven that way.

Two, I think I may have made a mistake with RealFeel settings. For some reason, the default RealFeel felt much better with all cars except the Caddy last night. I'm thinking I may have not purchased or installed the RealFeel FFB force option in the Upgrades section of the Vehicle menu for each car I own. DOH! Yes, my embarrassment is total.

This mod really shines in many areas. First, the physics are different for each car. I was way wrong with that. The Caddy feels like a boat, the Porsche feels nimble, the Aston is very unstable under braking if you don't blip the throttle, and the GTO and Volvo feel really balanced to me -- all with default setups.

Second, the offline AI is very good, which is a plus. Third, the tire model for this mod might be the best I've ever experienced in rFactor in terms of matching how heavy, production-based cars like this must chew up tires in reality. You simply can't drive these cars like a drifting mod, and that's so refreshing. You really, really need to be tidy in your driving and pay attention to tire management, adding another mental aspect that so few rFactor mods include.

Fourth, I love how you must blip the throttle on downshifts with most cars. So few rFactor mods require this. Again, it develops a skill set that very few rFactor mods hone. Finally, these cars dance at the edge of grip as well as the fantastic Historic GT & Touring mod, which I think sets the benchmark for that in rFactor. I was able to catch slides in a few cars last night when reaching the end of the tire grip. So many rFactor mods at the edge resemble driving on black ice: You have gobs of grip and then suddenly the car is spinning toward the kitty litter. There's no gray area of grip that gives you a split-second to catch the car. This mod does give you that minute frame of time.

So, I come to Jan and the US Pits with a heaping plate of fried black bird, ready to gobble some crow. You have done a very fine job with this mod. I think it's misunderstood by some -- including me at the outset -- because it does a lot of things that haven't been modeled well before in rFactor. So the knee-jerk reaction from some blowhards like me is to immediately assume that those are flaws when in reality they're plusses that are advancing this sim to places it hasn't been before.

Take care,
PK

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:58 pm

I just took the NAGT mod for a spin, and I like it a lot. The cars are easy to drive, but hard to drive fast, if that makes any sense. Everything felt good with the FFB (I use Leo's, not realfeel), the cars felt like they had some weight to them.

I did laps at Laguna, and I think the Cadi was my favorite, although the GTO was fun too. I felt a big difference between them and the Aston Martin.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:21 pm

Dear rFactor Central,

How can I 'be' Damon Hill?

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... 9%20Season

At least I think it's Damon, and Heinz-Harald, available in this one-car beta, but since I've not downloaded it yet I'm not committing myself. I'm going to download it now, though, and get the G25 out for a bit to see how it goes.

Question regarding the NAGT mod: I can't blip the throttle on downshift. Buggered my ankle up a couple of years ago and can't heel-toe for more than a minute at a time without it swelling (don't tell me to left-foot brake - my gaming setup makes it impossible). Is it likely to be a serious issue to me? PK's post suggested it would be, but I can live with a car that's a bit lively going down the gears as long as it's catchable so I'm hoping it's still worth the download.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:10 pm

Adam:

I don't think not blipping with NAGT is an issue for driving, but it could be an issue for engine and gearbox wear. Probably not a concern for a five-lapper, though.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:38 pm

GB_Simo wrote:http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... 9%20Season

At least I think it's Damon, and Heinz-Harald, available in this one-car beta, but since I've not downloaded it yet I'm not committing myself. I'm going to download it now, though, and get the G25 out for a bit to see how it goes.

Badly.

I don't want to judge the F1 1999 mod based on a one-car beta for several reasons, because it's clearly not quite finished yet, but the mod group really need to do some work on their default setups. At Silverstone (Northamptonshire), I managed to lose the rear end on my out lap through Becketts, Vale, Abbey, Bridge and Priory. Feeling less than fully confident heading onto my first flyer, I had a brake and a downshift into Copse to play extra safe, and still fell off somewhere between mid-corner and exit. Not too much car left to drive after that.

I'm assuming this is an issue with the differential settings (it's snap oversteer in the fast corners that also occurs during braking for slower corners, rather than in the corner itself) but I'm not much of a tweaker so I've not done anything about it yet. When I say I 'managed to lose the rear end', that's not really accurate - I didn't lose the rear, it snapped on me. Once that's sorted it'll be possible to make a more reasonable judgement on the mod's current quality.

Other points of note - the car model seems pretty good but the skin didn't overlay properly on my one run. The cockpit is basic at best, and it features strange, immovable driver arms that look faintly ridiculous when the in-game wheel moves and the in-game arms don't. Sounds have the potential to be pretty decent but I'm not sure the engine revs quite high enough, and there's a noticeable step between the low and high samples that spoils things a bit.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:50 pm

PK, thanks for the answer - might have to give the mod a go.

While I'm here, a couple of track recommendations for you all. Firstly, Riders On The Storm (ROTS), which is a joy in a touring car, sportscar or lower-powered Formula racer:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=ROTS

Others seem to be having fun in Champ Cars and things like that - I find the track a little fiddly in higher-powered open wheelers, though there's still enjoyment to be had. Take a look at the chicane cutting deterrents too - if there'd been something like that at the Bus Stop there'd be no appeal going on now, because Lewis would never have got over the bloody things.

Secondly, Quinn Racing Park:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cf ... ing%20Park

There is a GT layout, which I haven't tried (and which seems to have some interesting issues, judging from the screenshot of an NAGT Viper with pieces of barrier where the headlights should be), and an F1 layout which I've had to force myself to stop driving. It's full of fast corners, and these fast corners are all either blind, off-camber or blind and off camber. The track is bookended by a couple of slow, technical sections that won't be to everyone's taste, but I could happily lose hours driving a BMW Sauber around there.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:07 pm

I got my mitts on GTR Evolution and took it for a spin. My system really can't handle it with a framerate above 30-35 fps and without antialiasing, so it looks lousy. No comments on graphics -- sorry! -- although I could see where the game would be really pretty on a quality gaming rig.

Very early driving impressions:

Simbin's strengths are GT cars and tin-tops, and nothing has changed with GTR Evolution. The open-wheel FBMW and F3000 cars are vastly inferior to their rFactor counterparts in physics and sense of speed. It's not even close. The F3000s also seem to have way too much grip.

The GT cars on the 'Ring are really good fun, even if there are no Porsches in the game. The physics are really solid and challenging, yet predictable.

WTCC cars also are big fun, even if they seem a bit easy to drive. Very stable, seemingly with too much grip.

Both the GT and WTCC cars seem to have a tire grip model that allows you to dance a bit on the edge of traction without that "snap black ice" feel of so many rFactor mods, except for EOAA's DBR 9 and the Historic GT and Touring car mods.

Offline AI shines in every class. This is one area where Simbin games simply CRUSH rFactor.

Default force feedback also is excellent in all classes in GTR Evo. It doesn't offer quite as precise of a feel over the bumps as an rFactor mod with properly tuned RealFeel, but it does offer more consistent feedback throughout the range of wheel rotation than any rFactor mod except for those specifically designed for RealFeel, such as Historic GT & Touring, Caterham and Corvette C6.

The GTR Evo FFB also has too many canned forces, even when set at Low, but I made no attempt at any .ini file tweaks. Still, the canned forces aren't excessive.

In summary, I liked GTR Evo more than I thought I would. My machine really can't run it well, so I doubt I'll keep it.

There's no reason to get this game if you already own GTR 2 or RACE 07, especially since the physics model in GTR 2 is better than that for GT cars in GTR Evo. But I think GTR Evo is an attractive package for someone who doesn't have GTR 2 or RACE 07 and wants very good offline racing.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:54 pm

I recently saw GTR in the jewel case form for $4.97 at Circuit City. I was tempted to get it but I wasn't sure if it still used Starforce copy protection.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:48 pm

Rodster wrote:I recently saw GTR in the jewel case form for $4.97 at Circuit City. I was tempted to get it but I wasn't sure if it still used Starforce copy protection.

I believe GTR still has Starforce. Simbin games from GTR 2 onward do not.

Take care,
PK

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:53 pm

The original GTR most certainly did as I know first hand as I lost two drives to that malware. I was hoping that the new packaged GTR would come without Starforce. GTR was much better than GTR2 which is a shame that it had to use Starforce.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:07 pm

Rodster wrote:GTR was much better than GTR2 which is a shame that it had to use Starforce.

If true, then GTR must have been kick-ass. I've been on a real GTR 2 binge lately, running it offline, and I'm really digging it. There's no question it's a better offline game than rFactor, with superior AI, the ability to run endurance races, etc.

rFactor still is the king online and still is much better with open-wheel cars, online or offline.

Take care,
PK

DChaps · Post by **DChaps** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:36 pm

Very nice review of GTR Evo Paul, thanks! If you can believe this, I have had the game for some time, but have yet to even install it (PC issues and not much time for fixing, let alone gaming). What about the Ring itself? Did you feel it was any better or worse than rFactor versions? Also, I would love to see your in game FFB settings just to have a starting point once I get around to installing it.

Rodster wrote:GTR was much better than GTR2 which is a shame that it had to use Starforce.

Really Rod? Why do you feel this way? As you can probably tell from my avatar I have a lot of love for GTR2. I imported the original GTR from Germany, then bought it two more times when it came out in the US, so I am pretty familiar with it and to me GTR 2 is an improvement in absolutely every way. AI, Online, Interface, Options, FFB, Physics, Graphics performance, etc. I know there are many people who feel the physics were dumbed down, but depending on which actual FIA GT racer you believe, most that were involved have stated that GTR 2 was the closer match.

Rodster · Post by **Rodster** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:39 pm

DChaps wrote:
Really Rod? Why do you feel this way? As you can probably tell from my avatar I have a lot of love for GTR2. I imported the original GTR from Germany, then bought it two more times when it came out in the US, so I am pretty familiar with it and to me GTR 2 is an improvement in absolutely every way. AI, Online, Interface, Options, FFB, Physics, Graphics performance, etc. I know there are many people who feel the physics were dumbed down, but depending on which actual FIA GT racer you believe, most that were involved have stated that GTR 2 was the closer match.

It was back before they became Blimey Games and sold off Simbin to another developer. The best example I can give of GTR vs GTR2 is like trying to compare F1 2007 BMW Sauber mod vs the 2008 F1 BNW mod.

The original GTR cars were always on the edge. They felt like you were driving real race cars in that you couldn't get stupid with them and not find yourself out of the race. With GTR2 I can throw them around even with all of the assists off. You couldn't do that with the original GTR cars.

I haven't found the AI to be any better or worse in GTR2. They still suffer from cornering speed. There are also some nice physics mods for GTR2. But in my opinion i'm still very found of the original GTR cars and physics.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:52 pm

DChaps wrote:Very nice review of GTR Evo Paul, thanks! If you can believe this, I have had the game for some time, but have yet to even install it (PC issues and not much time for fixing, let alone gaming). What about the Ring itself? Did you feel it was any better or worse than rFactor versions? Also, I would love to see your in game FFB settings just to have a starting point once I get around to installing it.

Don:

The GTR Evo version of the Nordschliefe is very pretty, with nice color and strong detail. The road markings/graffiti and billboards seem accurate. I didn't see or feel anything on it that made it stand out any more than RaceKing's version for rFactor, for example.

But the consistent FFB of GTR Evo, which I also find to the be the case in GTR 2, made it a delight to drive.

I was using stock FFB settings for the detected DFP. No .PLR or .INI file changes at all. I always like to start from stock and work from there, but that won't happen with this game because it just doesn't run well enough graphically on my lappy.

But I noticed that the minimum VRAM for GTR Evo is 256 MB. No wonder it didn't work well on my lappy, with its 128MB VRAM Mobility X1400! The increase in VRAM requirements is odd considering that GTR Evolution appears to be pretty much a straight port of RACE 07's touring cars and other classes, and that game has a minimum VRAM requirement of 128MB.

Still, I know I'm prehistoric, so it's silly of me to moan that my lappy can't play a game released in 2008.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:56 pm

Some kick-ass force feedback settings for GTR 2 in posts #21 and #22 in this thread:

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=266906

Really unique feel. It's not like RealFeel, but certainly not like ISI or SimBin FFB. I really, really like it.

Take care,
PK

Smurfy · Post by **Smurfy** » Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:06 pm

I just tried the NAGT and Legends cars on the ROTS track that Adam recommended. It was quite fun. Tire wear makes it a real challenge too.

The Legends cars are quite a handfull, aren't they? I like how they force me to blend my gas and brakes more smoothly.

Unfortunately, when I tried the Quinn track it kept crashing my rFactor back to the Windows desktop