OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 2

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:00 am

What he always has; a LOT of hot air...

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 7:43 am

Bring that pork back to Delaware, Biden.

MACTEPsporta · Post by **MACTEPsporta** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:24 am

RobVarak wrote:
miget33 wrote:Obama picks Biden as his VP.
I'm very, very surprised for all the reasons that I stated earlier.

Yep, same here. I said before that he had to make a choice between experience and change, and now he has chosen experience. I don't know about this one. For all intensive purposes Biden is McCain's twin brother, separated at birth and raised in an evil democratic environment. Politically, of course. That must really be pissing off Republicans, since he has all the strongsuits of their candidate, but the war experience. Expect that to be touted a lot more now.

I must say I am a little disappointed. Obama seems to have chosen a candidate to counter his opponent's strength rather than the one that would solidify his own message. I suppose winning the election will justify this, but I was hoping he would do something less traditional.

From pure entertainment standpoint, however, it's very promising. Now, all McCain needs to do is select Jindal, and every news station will be orgasmically replaying what Biden had to say about Idians in 7/11's.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:58 am

Obama made the right choice. . The political choice. The choice he had to make. He balanced the ticket perfectly.

The goal is to win the election. The rest can wait.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:22 am

It reminds me of Bush picking Cheney in 2000. Bush was critized by Gore for having no experience and Cheney was picked.

MACTEPsporta · Post by **MACTEPsporta** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:28 am

Inuyasha wrote:It reminds me of Bush picking Cheney in 2000. Bush was critized by Gore for having no experience and Cheney was picked.

Cheney was also the head of Bush's VP vetting team...

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 9:05 am

My strongest memory of Biden is watching his testicles shrink to the size of baby peas during the Clarence Thomas hearings. I have had little use for him since. Every time I see how Clarence Thomas votes on an issue before the court, I think of Joe Biden. "Thanks Joe" I think to myself. Clarence Thomas on the highest court for life is his legacy.

I am as liberal as anyone on this site, but my overwhelming image of a Obama-Biden presidency is a vision of being stopped at customs and strip searched and arrested for having illegal mp3s on my Ipod. That both of them are in the RIAA's pocket is a small issue considering the domestic and international difficulties facing this country, but at this point I have seen little to convince me that these guys can put together a government that can put us back on the right track. Say what you want about Clinton, but she has experience working with people on both sides of the aisle and has the respect of them as well. The guy that the Democratic party has shoved down our throat doesn't have either and selecting Joe Biden doesn't make me feel all warm and gushy inside.

Both candidates have done things that piss me off. Both would probably sacrifice babies if they thought it would lead them to the White House. But I suspect that McCain would shift back toward the middle of the road once he got there.

I hate what has happened to my country in the last 8 years. But that is not going to make me vote for Obama. I hate the Bush presidency but I feel little but disdain for the Democratic Party. This is a party that should be a shoe-in for the presidency based on the shambles of the last 8 years and they have mismanaged things to the point that not only could McCain win, but he could win big.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:56 pm

kevinpars wrote:My strongest memory of Biden is watching his testicles shrink to the size of baby peas during the Clarence Thomas hearings. I have had little use for him since. Every time I see how Clarence Thomas votes on an issue before the court, I think of Joe Biden. "Thanks Joe" I think to myself. Clarence Thomas on the highest court for life is his legacy.

I am as liberal as anyone on this site, but my overwhelming image of a Obama-Biden presidency is a vision of being stopped at customs and strip searched and arrested for having illegal mp3s on my Ipod. That both of them are in the RIAA's pocket is a small issue considering the domestic and international difficulties facing this country, but at this point I have seen little to convince me that these guys can put together a government that can put us back on the right track. Say what you want about Clinton, but she has experience working with people on both sides of the aisle and has the respect of them as well. The guy that the Democratic party has shoved down our throat doesn't have either and selecting Joe Biden doesn't make me feel all warm and gushy inside.

Both candidates have done things that piss me off. Both would probably sacrifice babies if they thought it would lead them to the White House. But I suspect that McCain would shift back toward the middle of the road once he got there.

I hate what has happened to my country in the last 8 years. But that is not going to make me vote for Obama. I hate the Bush presidency but I feel little but disdain for the Democratic Party. This is a party that should be a shoe-in for the presidency based on the shambles of the last 8 years and they have mismanaged things to the point that not only could McCain win, but he could win big.

Well if you have that defeatist attitude, then he will lose.

Especially the bit about the party forcing Obama on people, which is what the PUMA thing is all about. Clinton had all the insiders lined up on her side and still lost. They had no choice but to back Obama. What were they going to do, overturn his wins in the primaries and hand it to Clinton at the convention?

If McCain is going to move to the middle, he should be giving signals now, BEFORE the election when he needs to draw support from the middle.

But he said that the 4 liberal justices in the SCOTUS are unfit for the Court, even though he voted to approve at least 3 of them.

He said life begins at conception. So a lot of the PUMA folks and people thinking McCain will move to the middle are either in denial or not paying attention.

McCain shouldn't be able to push a conservative agenda if he got elected unless the Congress turns over.

But he may get 2 or 3 SCOTUS nominations.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:30 pm

I don't think Biden's nomination will have any impact on the election, because people generally vote for the candidate and not for the ticket. If Cheney couldn't cost Bush an election, I'm not real worried about Biden bringing Obama down.

It's a safe, dull choice, but one that I think makes sense if Obama wins. Biden has a lot of experience where Obama is weakest, and given the growing influence of the VP's office on executive policy, I can see why he did it.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:32 pm

Well if you have that defeatist attitude, then he will lose.

That's what we are praying for brother

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:40 pm

In fact the last time they said a VP may have won a significant state for either party was when JFK chose LBJ and they won Texas.

It would have taken something out of the blue, like if Powell signed on.

FatPitcher · Post by **FatPitcher** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:45 pm

I don't think anyone except political junkies cares about vice-presidential selections. Maybe Hillary supporters this year, but that's an aberration. Just something the news media has been pushing for lack of anything noteworthy to report on what is turning out to be a pretty issue-free race.

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:57 pm

VP is especially important this year as, unfortunately, both candidates for President have a higher than usual chance of dying while in office.

TheHiddenTrack · Post by **TheHiddenTrack** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:43 pm

Obama is still in good position to win.

http://www.slate.com/id/2195956/

Electoral College Summary:
190 safe dem
70 lean dem
84 toss up

But I won't be surprised if it comes down to one state on election day.

And for anyone looking for an interesting (and very negative take) on both candidates, check out this link: http://www.johntreed.com/headline.html

I don't agree with everything he says but I think you'll respect his opinion. He says what he thinks, and he probably hates both candidates equally. Also, check out his articles on the military for some more strong opinions. I like how he criticizes the military but then calls for a draft, it's beautiful.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:33 pm

Easily the best spot on the web for empirical analysis of the election, polling data, winning % analysis, electoral projections...tons of great stuff.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

For those of you who are Sabremetrically-inclined, it's operated by Nate Silver one of the brains behind the number-crunching at Baseball Prospectus.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:21 pm

just noticed this will be the first election since 1972 where a southerner isn't on either ticket.

SPTO · Post by **SPTO** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:28 am

Some here may know of me but i'm sure a vast majority don't. Anyways i've always been a US politics junkie and the next two weeks are by far some of my favorite weeks in the election cycle. It's true that conventions aren't what they used to be but I enjoy looking at the pomp and ceremony of it all.

I like Barrack Obama but i'm not one of those sycophants that thinks he'll cure every problem under the sun. He's a very good politician who has cultivated a strong base (at least on paper) and while he's very much inexperienced in a lot of areas he made up for it with the very astute picking of Joe Biden as his running mate. Biden is a guy who i've liked for a very long time. I know that the McCain campaign is already trying to smear Biden with airing of commercials which makes him look bad but a lot of the stuff that was said were said when Biden was himself running for president. You have to have some context to fully understand what he meant.

Biden is a tough old school politician and I think he'll do a great job of sharpening the focus of Obama's message while at the same time shooting down McCain and his VP candidate's rhetoric. I've seen Biden in debate settings where he's one on one with someone and he comes across very well in that format.

The only concern is Biden's penchant for saying unfortunate things at the worst times. I'm hoping that he can restrain himself in that manner.

I truly look forward to the night Obama accepts the nomination as the optics of doing it at Invesco Field gives off a very historic vibe and if done right could be the political equivalent of Martin Luther King's "I Have A Dream" speech. Who would've thought it'd take this long for a black man to run for the highest office in the land? That moment should be tivo'ed by most of us and kept for posterity even if you dislike Obama.

Jackdog · Post by **Jackdog** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:06 am

SPTO wrote:Some here may know of me but i'm sure a vast majority don't. Anyways i've always been a US politics junkie and the next two weeks are by far some of my favorite weeks in the election cycle. It's true that conventions aren't what they used to be but I enjoy looking at the pomp and ceremony of it all.

I like Barrack Obama but i'm not one of those sycophants that thinks he'll cure every problem under the sun. He's a very good politician who has cultivated a strong base (at least on paper) and while he's very much inexperienced in a lot of areas he made up for it with the very astute picking of Joe Biden as his running mate. Biden is a guy who i've liked for a very long time. I know that the McCain campaign is already trying to smear Biden with airing of commercials which makes him look bad but a lot of the stuff that was said were said when Biden was himself running for president. You have to have some context to fully understand what he meant.

Biden is a tough old school politician and I think he'll do a great job of sharpening the focus of Obama's message while at the same time shooting down McCain and his VP candidate's rhetoric. I've seen Biden in debate settings where he's one on one with someone and he comes across very well in that format.

The only concern is Biden's penchant for saying unfortunate things at the worst times. I'm hoping that he can restrain himself in that manner.

I truly look forward to the night Obama accepts the nomination as the optics of doing it at Invesco Field gives off a very historic vibe and if done right could be the political equivalent of Martin Luther King's "I Have A Dream" speech. Who would've thought it'd take this long for a black man to run for the highest office in the land? That moment should be tivo'ed by most of us and kept for posterity even if you dislike Obama.

Jumping right into the deep end of the DSP physco threads.

Welcome aboard. I've always enjoyed your posts at OS. You can take the gloves off here when it comes to politics. Enjoy!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:22 am

SPTO wrote:I like Barrack Obama but i'm not one of those sycophants that thinks he'll cure every problem under the sun. He's a very good politician who has cultivated a strong base (at least on paper) and while he's very much inexperienced in a lot of areas he made up for it with the very astute picking of Joe Biden as his running mate. Biden is a guy who i've liked for a very long time. I know that the McCain campaign is already trying to smear Biden with airing of commercials which makes him look bad but a lot of the stuff that was said were said when Biden was himself running for president. You have to have some context to fully understand what he meant.

Maybe it's different in Canada, but the vast majority of American voters don't know the meaning of context. That's why the McCain campaign is pouncing on it and will gain some traction with the ads.

SPTO wrote:I truly look forward to the night Obama accepts the nomination as the optics of doing it at Invesco Field gives off a very historic vibe and if done right could be the political equivalent of Martin Luther King's "I Have A Dream" speech. Who would've thought it'd take this long for a black man to run for the highest office in the land? That moment should be tivo'ed by most of us and kept for posterity even if you dislike Obama.

It's ridiculous to compare Obama's upcoming convention speech with Dr. King's "I Have A Dream" speech.

Regardless of its inspirational qualities, Obama's speech will be the crowning moment at a beauty pageant. It will be the orgasm of a week filled with politics, one of the most unsavory professions in the world.

Dr. King's speech was the climax of a fight for basic human rights, for basic human decency, for values that every human -- regardless of creed, race or religion -- should share.

What Barack Obama is striving for -- to win the money-drunk beauty pageant known as the U.S. presidential campaign -- simply does not compare.

Oh, welcome to DSP!

Take care,
PK

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:24 am

SPTO wrote: I truly look forward to the night Obama accepts the nomination as the optics of doing it at Invesco Field gives off a very historic vibe and if done right could be the political equivalent of Martin Luther King's "I Have A Dream" speech. Who would've thought it'd take this long for a black man to run for the highest office in the land? That moment should be tivo'ed by most of us and kept for posterity even if you dislike Obama.

Should be interesting. I'd go so far as to suggest that it's the most anticipated political address in at least 25 years. There is the potential for him to secure a huge bounce in the polls and take a few key states out of play.

PS Are we all really supposed to be surprised that Good Time Teddy is going to show up? Aside from the obvious need to slather on a nice thick coat of Camelot varnish, there was no way he'd miss an event with that much liquor and young tail

SPTO · Post by **SPTO** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:31 am

pk500 wrote:
Maybe it's different in Canada, but the vast majority of American voters don't know the meaning of context. That's why the McCain campaign is pouncing on it and will gain some traction with the ads.

It's a little different in Canada. The Conservative party here are using the American style attack ads a lot and while it plays well to the base it does almost the opposite with the rest of the country. That's probably one reason why Canada is deadlocked with a Conservative Minority.

pk500 wrote:It's ridiculous to compare Obama's upcoming convention speech with Dr. King's "I Have A Dream" speech.

Regardless of its inspirational qualities, Obama's speech will be the crowning moment at a beauty pageant. It will be the orgasm of a week filled with politics, one of the most unsavory professions in the world.

Dr. King's speech was the climax of a fight for basic human rights, for basic human decency, for values that every human -- regardless of creed, race or religion -- should share.

What Barack Obama is striving for -- to win the money-drunk beauty pageant known as the U.S. presidential campaign -- simply does not compare.

Oh, welcome to DSP!

Take care,
PK

PK I'd be foolish to compare Obama's speech in substance with MLK's but in terms of historical moments that help shape the black experience in America then the comparison is somewhat favorable. I do like Obama's rhetoric when making broad historically minded speeches. Just look at his coming out party from 2004. He absolutely wowed the crowd and captured the moment in a way that a politician hasn't since the Camelot Era.

I also agree with you that the conventions now are nothing more then a political orgy but that's the way it is. It's a bit sad that we'll probably never see a person of 100% substance running for President for the GOP or Dems.

Oh and thanks for the welcome!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:23 am

SP:

I agree with you, in theory. Inspiring political speeches occur about as often as I turn down a donut after Mass on Sundays, which isn't often.

So I'm looking forward to what the dude has to say, even if I'm still quite skeptical that he can match any of his talk with actual action.

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:44 am

Well it's going to be staged at a football stadium so there will be more fodder for "he's just a celebrity but says nothing" ads.

What candidate has been able to match campaign rhetoric with actions? Did Bush campaign on going to war in 2000 or winning the war in 2004? Did he talk about social security reform in the 2004 campaign, which is the first thing he attempted after his re-election?

I think Obama's speech is going to be the anniversary of the MLK speech. If his speech is compared to the MLK speech, that's not necessarily going to be a positive:

In the poll, 26 percent of whites say they have been victims of discrimination. Twenty-seven percent say too much has been made of the problems facing black people. Twenty-four percent say the country isn't ready to elect a black president. Five percent of white voters acknowledge that they, personally, would not vote for a black candidate.

http://www.slate.com/id/2198397/

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:55 am

Glad to see you made it to Denver safely, WCO

Please understand that I'm totally joking. Just. Having. Fun.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:55 am

wco81 wrote:What candidate has been able to match campaign rhetoric with actions? Did Bush campaign on going to war in 2000 or winning the war in 2004? Did he talk about social security reform in the 2004 campaign, which is the first thing he attempted after his re-election?

And what makes you think I like Bush? I detest the man as a president.

But the difference between Bush and Obama is that Bush never was and never will be a skilled orator. It never has been a cornerstone of his political career. Bush's oratory, other than the "bullhorn speech" after Sept. 11, only has inspired the most rabid members of his party.

Obama, on the other hand, burst into the national spotlight based on a speech, at the Dems' convention in 2004. His campaign caught fire based on his early stump speeches. The guy doesn't have a long legislative record or a body of work as a politician, so he compensates with stirring oratory.

So yes, I think Obama faces more pressure to deliver on his oratory than a less-inspiring speaker since so much of his mojo is based on his ability to whip a crowd into a frenzy with his talk.

Seriously, what's one of the first things you think about when you ponder Barack Obama as a politician? For most people, it's either, "black dude" or "great speaker."

Take care,
PK