Racing Sim Thread, Part II

[pk500]

Adam:

Our experiences are being mirrored by some at rFactor Central. But some posters have said the default setup is crap -- I agree! -- and that adding more wing helps with stability. There's also a setup already posted in the setup repository for the mod, so I'm eager to try that tonight.

I also hope RealFeel works well with this mod. I'm skeptical, as it doesn't work very well with the 2006 Champ Car mod, another marquee mod for IDT. Oddly, though, RealFeel works well with IDT's other open-wheel mods, Formula BMW and Toyota Atlantic.

So who the hell knows?

Take care,
PK

[GB_Simo]

PK, I just tried the rFactor Central setup at Mid-Ohio (briefly - I can't get acceptable frames there) and Road America, and it's made the mod a much easier drive for me. Our handling problems of yesterday are absolutely the fault of the default setup, not the mod physics.

I think you'll like the mod with that setup, and there should still be enough challenge in it to keep you interested.

[pk500]

Fantastic, Adam. Thanks. Looking forward to driving this more tonight.

I find myself gravitating more and more to mods featuring older cars. They are more interesting to drive.

Take care,
PK

[GB_Simo]

Me too, PK. Two reasons for it in my case:

1) As you said, they're more interesting to drive. Big power, less mech and aero grip, cars that aren't tracking on rails and more challenge for the driver
2) If it ran before 1991, I'm not old enough to have seen it race in its day. On clips, yes, but not live when they were state of the art, and because of that I find the idea of racing, say, F1 1985 (the cars that ran in the year of my birth) far cooler than of racing a modern mod.

Edited to add that with cars like this new CART mod, the only times I've raced those in a game were on the Mega Drive/Genesis and SNES as a kid. Nigel Mansell's Newman-Haas IndyCar, Mario Andretti's Racing, Turbo Racing, stuff like that. When Papyrus were making their IndyCar Racing games I didn't have a PC to run them or indeed the patience to play them in any event. Progressing from that to all the fabulous rFactor mods is really something.

A WIP I'm really looking forward to, alongside the Indy 1984 and F5000 mods, is this one:

http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=Lotus%2088



Did you get to try that CART 1995 setup?

[pk500]

Did you get to try that CART 1995 setup?

I did. The cars are still a challenge to drive, which is good, but they're much more manageable and less twitchy under power and braking.

Really enjoying this mod and eager to have more fun with it.

Still haven't tried it yet at Indy. Will do that this weekend.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

My latest mad scientist rFactor project: I'm using MoTec telemetry to get the Steering Arm Force data for every rFactor mod I own other than Historic GT & Touring so I can dial in RealFeel with hard data and not "feel." I'm so impressed with the RealFeel in that mod that I want to try and replicate it in every other mod I have.

I'm testing at Oulton Park 2005 International GP circuit, as the mavens at RSC rave about the quality of the modeling of that track and how it's a really good test bed for this kind of testing and data analysis. It's a circuit with a little bit of everything. Cool with me: I love Oulton!

Using MoTec makes setting up RealFeel quite easy, as there's nothing subjective: The telemetry data doesn't lie. The data also indicates pretty quickly which mods work well with RealFeel and which don't. So far, I've done seven mods. A quick rundown:

Works Well With RealFeel:
UK Mini
55 F1
ETCC
Caterham
Formula BMW

Doesn't Work Well With RealFeel:
IRL 2007-08 (road courses; it's fine at Indy oval)
Champ Car 2005-06

I'll be happy to supply anyone with the RealFeel settings that I've found through MoTec and my controller.ini file for my DFP when done. I hope to be done in four or five days or so. It doesn't take long, but I only want to do a few mods per night just to stay fresh with this project.

Yes, I need a life!

Take care,
PK

[Jimmydeicide]

My latest mad scientist rFactor project: I'm using MoTec telemetry to get the Steering Arm Force data for every rFactor mod I own other than Historic GT & Touring so I can dial in RealFeel with hard data and not "feel." I'm so impressed with the RealFeel in that mod that I want to try and replicate it in every other mod I have.

I'm testing at Oulton Park 2005 International GP circuit, as the mavens at RSC rave about the quality of the modeling of that track and how it's a really good test bed for this kind of testing and data analysis. It's a circuit with a little bit of everything. Cool with me: I love Oulton!

Using MoTec makes setting up RealFeel quite easy, as there's nothing subjective: The telemetry data doesn't lie. The data also indicates pretty quickly which mods work well with RealFeel and which don't. So far, I've done seven mods. A quick rundown:

Works Well With RealFeel:
UK Mini
55 F1
ETCC
Caterham
Formula BMW

Doesn't Work Well With RealFeel:
IRL 2007-08 (road courses; it's fine at Indy oval)
Champ Car 2005-06

I'll be happy to supply anyone with the RealFeel settings that I've found through MoTec and my controller.ini file for my DFP when done. I hope to be done in four or five days or so. It doesn't take long, but I only want to do a few mods per night just to stay fresh with this project.

Yes, I need a life!

Take care,
PK

Does it realy improve the feel or does it just remove the doubt?

[pk500]

Does it realy improve the feel or does it just remove the doubt?

Both.

MoTec has nothing to do with the function of RealFeel. It's a professional telemetry program that real race teams use.

But MoTec -- which is a free download, of course -- gives you indisputable telemetry data from your laps at a track, constantly measuring Steering Arm Forces among tons of other data. You simply take your highest Steering Arm Force number and plug it into RealFeel, and you're done.

There are times when you get a big spike in your Steering Arm Forces data on the graph, but MoTec also includes a track map that shows your exact location on the circuit when that spike occurred. Usually the spikes occur when you have gone off track or creamed a curb, so you just toss out that data and use the largest number from a point during the lap when you know you were on track and not mauling any curbs, walls or other cars!

And that accurate data brings out the best in RealFeel. You feel all of the little forces acting on your steering rack when it's set up properly, and you also learn quickly which mods have poorly designed suspensions and just don't work right with RealFeel.

All I know is that I thought my Formula BMW RealFeel settings -- based on nothing but "feel" -- were accurate and effective. I ran a top lap of 1:44.3 at Oulton Park International in four clean laps of MoTec testing with those settings. MoTec showed that my Steering Arm Force settings were inaccurate in those "by feel" RealFeel settings.

I inserted the correct Steering Arm Force data from MoTec into my realfeel.ini for Formula BMW and turned a 1:42.7 on my very first flying lap -- same track, same car, same default car setup.

That's good enough for me. The car felt fantastic, too.

My biggest disappointment is that the IRL mod doesn't work well with RealFeel on road courses. Mike Peters, the mod designer, said he redesigned the suspensions for RealFeel in one of the numerous updates of the mod. But it sure doesn't feel like it.

Take care,
PK

[DChaps]

I like the approach you are taking Paul. That is kind of what I was doing with Realfeel for every mod, but it was the unscientific method. It's too bad that you are not getting good results with the IRL mod on road courses. I assume that the settings you are getting from MoTec are only going to be good for a Driving Force Pro though, correct? Or should they work for a MOMO red, MOMO black, G25, etc.?

[GB_Simo]

PK, you're quite clearly a wave short of a shipwreck but I might be interested in your results when you're done.

I'm starting to find lately, though, that stock Leo's does all I need it to. I'm running it with the 1995 CART mod now, for example (oh, and run those on iDT's Long Beach track with Fjalla's setup from the rFactor repository - they're unbelievably good fun there), and Leo's is fine with that. I've never changed a thing within Leo's and I've never been totally dissatisfied with it, so it's less hassle than the hit and miss RealFeel, and the gain I'd get from tweaking RealFeel isn't worth it to me.

Then again, I spent so long driving with no force feedback at all that I was able to race NR2003 and rFactor online without it, and GPL offline without it. It might simply be that through all that, I've grown so used to using audio and visual cues to establish where my car is going next that I don't get as much from the FFB as I otherwise might.

[pk500]

I like the approach you are taking Paul. That is kind of what I was doing with Realfeel for every mod, but it was the unscientific method. It's too bad that you are not getting good results with the IRL mod on road courses. I assume that the settings you are getting from MoTec are only going to be good for a Driving Force Pro though, correct? Or should they work for a MOMO red, MOMO black, G25, etc.?

Don:

I think they'll work just fine for a G25.

G25's definitely can handle a smoothing setting of 0 and a Default Steering Damper setting of 11500, which is what I'm using, since those settings were designed for the G25. The RealFeel readme and posts at RSC indicate that users of the DFP can run the G25 settings without crazy oscillations, and that's been the case with me, too.

Not sure about the MOMO's. You might need to use smoothing of 1 or 2 and set the Default Steering Damper to 2500 with those wheels if you get crazy oscillations with them.

The wheel type is irrelevant to the MaxForceAtSteeringRack setting since those are the forces acting on the car's suspension, not your steering wheel. That digit, determined by MoTec telemetry, will remain the same regardless of your wheel.

You just may need to smooth or damp some of the effects if your wheel can't handle it. But the G25 definitely can handle it with no smoothing or damping (11500 is no damping), and my DFP is handling it with no problems, either.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

PK, you're quite clearly a wave short of a shipwreck but I might be interested in your results when you're done.

Yeah, I know it sounds nuts, Adam, but it really only takes 10 or 15 minutes per track to run two or three clean laps after a warm-up lap and check the telemetry. So I can knock off four or five mods' worth of settings in an hour.

And I clearly feel the difference in precision, especially on bumpy circuits.

I'm just one of those types who likes to extract everything possible from what's available in things that interest me. I would kick myself in the ass -- and have done just that -- for not giving RealFeel as in-depth and honest a shot as possible.

MoTec is helping me do that, and it's making the entire process pretty painless and fun. MoTec also is providing a level of data-driven accuracy that's not possible in any other way or with any other FFB plug-in. Yeah, I can get the steering arm lengths and some other values for Leo's, but I can't get all of them. So even if I tweak some values in Leo's for a certain mod, the rest still are going to be set up at the default, for a 2007 BMW Sauber F1 car.

With RealFeel, the only variable is the MaxForceAtSteeringRack, and MoTec is delivering that data with an unparalleled level of precision. And I've learned through my reading that RealFeel demands that type of precision to really run right. It runs OK based on feel, but it really seems to come alive with precise, accurate data.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

I'm finally finished with testing of all of my mods with MoTec telemetry, finding optimal RealFeel settings. It was really fun and showed which mods work well and don't work well with RealFeel.

My parameters for a mod "working well" with RealFeel after finding proper SteeringArmForce data with MoTec:

1. Is the FFB consistent throughout the wheel travel, understanding that the wheel may feel a touch light at the center because there isn't a lot of force acting on the steering rack? But heavy, heavy steering under force and featherweight steering at straight isn't progressive, good feel, in my opinion.

2. Is there subtle feel to the FFB? Can you feel the difference in the impact of a big bump and smaller ripples? Or is every bump very heavy or very light, which I think is bad?

I'm using a Logitech DFP with 360 degrees rotation. In Windows Game Controllers, I'm using 100 percent Overall Effects Strength, centering spring unchecked and 0 for Spring Effects Strength, Damper Effects Strength and Centering Spring Strength. In rFactor, I'm using -100 FFB Strength and Low FFB Effects. I'm using the controller.ini file supplied with RealFeel except when running Historic GT & Touring and Japan F3, with which I'm using the .ini supplied for that mod. In my RealFeel .ini file, I'm using a 11500 for SteeringDamper setting, 100 percent for the RealFeelMixer and 0 for Smoothing.

I did nearly all of my testing at Oulton Park International GP circuit, with some at Mid-Ohio No Chicane.

Here's my list, which I'll continue to update. My MaxForceAtSteeringRack settings are in parentheses after each of the mods. Your mileage may vary!

WORKS WELL
Mini Challenge 2006 UK (-700)
1955 F1 (-1200)
Caterham (1500, which is supplied setting)
Historic GT & Touring (Use supplied RealFeel settings for each car and mod-specific controller.ini settings)
Grand Prix 1979 (4900)
BMW M1 ProCar 1980 (-2400)
Japan Formula 3 2007 (-9600)
PCC 2007 (-1700, must run 2.0 caster in setup)
F1 1988 McLaren (5700)
Legends Cars (-2000)
Chevrolet Corvette C6 (4800, which is supplied setting)
Epsilon Euskadi (-4000, which is supplied setting)
rTrainer modified for RealFeel (1700, which is supplied setting. This is the rTrainer default mod with completely rebuilt suspension by the creator of RealFeel. Get here: http://www.rfactorcentral.com/detail.cfm?ID=rTrainer)

DOESN'T WORK WELL
Spec Racer Ford (2500)
rF Open Wheel Racing 2007 Season (-5000 for Indy oval, -1900 for road courses)
Megane Trophy (3800)
ETCC (-800)
Porsche Fabcar Challenge (-3100)
2007 BMW Sauber F1 (-2300)
Supercopa Leon 2006 (-2400)
2005 Toyota Atlantics (-800)
Formula BMW (-900)
1995 CART (-1900)
2006 Champ Car World Series (deleted mod and RealFeel.ini settings, sorry!)

If you're feeling too much deadzone at center, try bumping the FFB level in Windows Game Controllers or the Logitech Profiler to 102 percent. That helps without overpowering the FFB.

I now share the opinion of those at RSC who say if a mod doesn't work well with 100 percent RealFeel and accurate SteeringArmForce data from MoTec, don't bother with it. RealFeel feels so damn good when set up properly that I refuse to accept anything less.

I've deleted all of the mods from my rFactor install that don't work well with RealFeel.

Hope these settings help you cats. I don't even want to tell you how many hours I spent testing over the last month, but it was worth it!

Take care,
PK

[DChaps]

Wow Paul that is some good info. Thanks. I am going to have some work to do this weekend. So what needs to be done to the mods that don't work well, like open wheel, Indy95,Megane, etc. Do they need physics overhauls?

[pk500]

Wow Paul that is some good info. Thanks. I am going to have some work to do this weekend. So what needs to be done to the mods that don't work well, like open wheel, Indy95,Megane, etc. Do they need physics overhauls?

Don:

The mods that are dodgy with RealFeel need suspension overhauls with the carFactory program available at RFC and developed by Kangaloosh, who was one of the two guys who developed RealFeel. Chances are, those dodgy mods have poorly designed front suspensions, which screws up RealFeel big time.

The CART 95 mod is a perfect example. gbeard12 over at RSC, a VERY knowledgeable and helpful guy about modding and RealFeel, has confirmed that the front suspension A-arms were built backward in CART 95 by looking at the .pm file for its suspension. He showed me how to check if other mods have reversed A-arms.

CART 95 is an iDT mod. I wouldn't be surprised if iDT has used the same line of front suspension A-arm code for both of its Indy-style mods, CART 95 and Champ Car 2005-06, which would explain why both feel like sh*t with properly tuned RealFeel. Mike Peters, who developed the IRL mod, also used to work with iDT, so I wouldn't be surprised if he used the same front suspension code for the IRL mod, again making it feel off with RealFeel.

You can get almost any mod to work with 100 percent RealFeel by adjusting the SteeringArmForce. But that doesn't mean it's going to work well. You just don't get progressive forces, or you either don't feel certain forces or feel too many jolting spikes of forces at screwy spots on the track, when you use 100 percent RealFeel with mods that aren't built for it.

People have reported decent results for those mods by mixing RealFeel and Leo's. Frankly, I despised that mixture when I tried it, so I'm only using mods now that work with RealFeel.

It just feels too good to drive a mod designed for RealFeel, with properly tuned SteeringArmForce values determined by telemetry, for me to accept anything less.

Take care,
PK

[Gurantsu]

Whats the latest word on iRacing? I haven't heard anything about it at all since the initial buzz.

[pk500]

Note: Three edits made to my list tonight after further testing.

Added 2007 BMW Sauber F1 to Does Not Work Well list; moved 2005 Toyota Atlantics and Formula BMW from Works Well to Does Not Work Well.

Pretty unreal how none of the iDT mods work very well with RealFeel, considering iDT's strong reputation in the rFactor community. All have some pretty strong, constant vibrations or weird oscillations with properly setup RealFeel.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Sorry, fellas -- I keep testing and updating! I guess this is a work in progress ...

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Well, looks like I have some more fun work ahead!

I was bummed out when PCC 07, one of my favorite rFactor mods, didn't work well with RealFeel. But I was at RFC last night and noticed that TechAde, one of the creators of RealFeel, had posted a RealFeel setup for the PCC 07 mod.

I figured, "Hell, if the creator of RealFeel has posted a setup, it must work." It did. The only wrinkle that Ade added was mandatory 2.0 caster in the setup, which I have posted above.

I wrote Ade to thank him for his setup and ask him for some more of his RealFeel settings. He responded that he doesn't have many rFactor mods on his install since he's playing a lot of iRacing but also offered this advice:

"Increasing caster can add force to a lot of mods and make them much more acceptable with RealFeel, ETCC being one that I remember responding quite well with a lot of caster that was dire on initial testing."

Looks like I need to revisit a few of my faves that didn't work well with RealFeel, such as ETCC, Formula BMW, Meganes and IndyCars, and see if caster changes can get them working with RealFeel.

I'll let you cats know! I actually enjoy this sh*t! I love it, in fact.

Take care,
PK

[DChaps]

Looks like I need to revisit a few of my faves that didn't work well with RealFeel, such as ETCC, Formula BMW, Meganes and IndyCars, and see if caster changes can get them working with RealFeel.

I'll let you cats know! I actually enjoy this sh*t! I love it, in fact.

Take care,
PK

Dude, I am going to owe you a lot of $$ or the beverage of your choice after you are finished with this quest. You have saved me a ton of time with your settings. You should create some mini-site for this, as I think your info is a great resource for the sim community.

[DChaps]

Whats the latest word on iRacing? I haven't heard anything about it at all since the initial buzz.

At 12:00noon EDT today (ie, in about 35 min), iRacing will be available to the general public. It will be interesting to see what happens then.

I did end up sigining up for the annual subscription after my initial 3 month was up, and I have managed to move up from a rooking to a class D license, but it is not easy. The folks on iRacing so far are very good, and very serious. I am neither, so it will take some time for me to progress any further, if I am able to at all. As strange as this may sound, I love iRacing for the time trials/hotlapping and its stats.

[pk500]

Dude, I am going to owe you a lot of $$ or the beverage of your choice after you are finished with this quest. You have saved me a ton of time with your settings. You should create some mini-site for this, as I think your info is a great resource for the sim community.

Don:

You must be getting old: Did you forget that you GAVE me a Logitech DFP wheel in perfect condition?

I'll still be in the red column toward you even if I determine RealFeel settings for every damn mod in rFactor! I remember your kindness and generosity every time I set up my wheel -- seriously.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

At 12:00noon EDT today (ie, in about 35 min), iRacing will be available to the general public. It will be interesting to see what happens then.

Do I need to pay a fee to read this post? It's iRacing, after all, where microtransactions are a way of life.

Seriously, I wonder if iRacing's ranks will mushroom. Plenty of beta invitations floated around various sim racing forums that I visit, so I think just about anyone hardcore enough to want the iRacing experience probably already is there. I just don't think the sim is "accessible" enough to attract a slice of what already is a very niche market, PC sim racers.

My interest in sim racing is gravitating toward older cars, as they're just so much more fun to drive. iRacing doesn't offer those, so that -- combined with all of the fees -- has blunted any interest I had in the sim.

But I'm glad you're digging it, Don. The physics and tire models are receiving almost universal praise.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

A bit more communication with another RealFeel guru at RSC over lunch has caused me to temper my enthusiasm for adding caster to dodgy RealFeel mods. I didn't really know what caster did, and he said it add mechanical trail and induces a lifting of the corner of the vehicle when turning, which adds weight transfer and more forces on the steering arm. This compensates for the lack of pneumatic trail in the tire models of many mods that work poorly with RealFeel.

I want those steering arm forces to be dead accurate when using RealFeel, as that provides the most fidelity in feedback. If using more caster changes the steering rack forces, then will the mod still feel lousy when adjust the steering rack forces to compensate for the additional caster?

There's no way I'm fudging steering rack forces just so a mod works with RealFeel; it either works with correct rack forces, or it doesn't.

I refuse to lose fidelity just so a mod feels decent with RealFeel, and I don't want the car setup feeling screwy because of additional caster. So I'll test this a bit and see how it goes ...

Thanks,
PK

[DChaps]

Double Post.....