Madden 09 Discussion

[GameSeven]

What I usually do see is folks that don't care to go to the hardcore level of analysis getting their panties all in a wad when they read a hardcore post somewhere. Dudes, just have fun with your game! If you don't care about that level of analysis, then really, simply don't care about it!

I think both camps take unintentional shots at each other. For every panty-wad, there are comments from the hardcore crowd that Super Release 2050 is 'broken' and the reason Evil Company A won't fix it is because said panty-wads (Sheeple anyone?) are willing to put up with crap. In other words, the casual gamer is ruining the potential for my happiness!

I think what also chafes the casual fan on these boards, and OS more, is the level of pre-release ire that one has to wade through. I'm all for reasoned discourse from both casual and hard-core fans alike but there is an awful lot of ZOMG$#%@ from people who have yet to play the game du jour. It seems increasingly with each release, there seem to be people who are ready to go to 11 at the first sign of trouble.

At the end of the day, I, like many who've posted here, am a big fan of voting with your wallet.

[Brando70]

I don't have number but I would venture the Madden Nation gamers are more of a market than the OS gamers. And they are very hardcore.

Here's where the hardcore v casual is important.

Who's buying the game in the first week. First week sales are used as models for total game sales. The truly casual gamers don't buy the game on day 1. The hardcore could impact opening day sales more than casual gamers. If investors saw EA not hit it 1-week, 2-week, sales mark you would see some heads roll.

....

Here's my question when did giving the user more OPTIONS a bad thing. If you take the philosophy of giving the user every posible chance of creating an experience tailored to his/her preference -- how can that be a bad thing?

I don't think the hardcore vs. casual thing applies to sales, but to how people play the game. The reason Madden sells so much is because a huge variety of people play it. My teenage cousin gets it every year so he can make fantasy teams composed of him and his friends, where they all have 99 OVR ratings. I have bought it every year to try and find a fun, challenging, and semi-realistic football game -- something that hasn't happened on Madden next gen. There are a lot of people who line up to buy this game on day one who have never touched a slider and probably think that term refers to a White Castle cheeseburger. OS has what, maybe 10,000-20,000 members? That's a small amount compared to a game that does platinum business.

As for the second question, I do think it's ridiculous that EA took CPU sliders out. But they did deliberately take them out. I don't think they sat in a meeting room and said, "Hey, f*** the slider gurus, we're taking CPU sliders out of the game." Given that they're trying something new with adaptive AI, and that the dev cycles are so short, I'm guessing they either thought CPU sliders would be unnecessary or they were causing problems with the AI and they didn't have time to fix it. Remember, this is the same group that didn't have time to put an accelerated clock in before the game shipped.

Not to let them off the hook, but I just think they aren't out to deliberately screw over potential customers. The screwing is unintentional

[webdanzer]

Talk about putting words in my mouth Web. I didn't say that people had no right to express their opinions. I didn't even imply it. All I'm trying to say is the fact that the hardcore sports gamer is not EA's target audience because it is such a small portion of the sales of the game. All of the changes they make regarding the game are geared towards the other demographic, not the hardcore demographic. That's all I am saying.

That's cool; that was all I was asking. I quoted three people (not just you) who were making the same point after a round of posts talking about the hardcore perspective.

So to me, I see:

1)Mention of hardcore perspective
2)Folks implying that people don't get it that the hardcore are not the target audience, and then you claiming that the hardcore only care about their own opinion

1+2+?

It seemed that the 2) responses were being presented to invalidate the 1)'s opinion, that's all. That's why I asked.

[RobVarak]

or people who are too dumb to notice that it doesn't really resemble the actual game

Rob called all you that buy Madden dumb.

You should work for The Daily Show with that selective editing LMAO

It seems geared toward people who really want to play football and have no other real choice, or people who are too dumb to notice that it doesn't really resemble the actual game

I'd wager that most people around here fall into Category A. Most, but not all, certainly

[JRod]

On the whole the slider thing might be small to gamers. But it's more about the frustration that EA just missed the mark with it's games.

Things like in-game saves, accelerated clock, CPU sliders are a sign that EA sets priorities and these clearly aren't a priority. And then they say, well we didn't have enough time to get around to it.

Then you have bigger issues, like robo-QBs. This wasn't by accident, someone had to tweak the gameplay so most QBs throw for 70%.

That worries me more than sliders. They had to say, we think our consumer will enjoy QBs being able to dominate the game. And we do not want to tweak it becuase this is our vision of the game.

I think the backlash is more about EA's attititude than sliders.


I say there is no need to make a distinction between casual and hardcore gamers. Casual gamers with buy a good sim game, as was the case for The Show, FIFA, MVP, NBA 2k, NHL and WE. Casual and hardcore gamers won't buy by casual games such as Live and MLB 2k.

I will contend EA doesn't really understand the market. They know how to make decent but sellable games. They don't know how to make great games that are sellable games.

[webdanzer]

I think both camps take unintentional shots at each other. For every panty-wad, there are comments from the hardcore crowd that Super Release 2050 is 'broken' and the reason Evil Company A won't fix it is because said panty-wads (Sheeple anyone?) are willing to put up with crap. In other words, the casual gamer is ruining the potential for my happiness!.

Point taken, though I must say in the boards I visit I see more shots at folks like the Bills than I see folks like the Bills' taking shots at the casuals. Maybe I'm using a slightly different definition of hardcore than some of you, too...I was defining it to be folks who go to the Bills' level of analysis.

I also agree with you that the level of pre-release stuff can be quite ridiculous, and the best way to vote is with your wallet.

Ultimately, I guess what it comes down to for me is that I have a less sensitive filter than most, I suppose. Maybe because I think I straddle the line between Hardcore and Casual, I usually don't get 'upset' about what the hardcore folks or casual folks say or post about a game if their opinion is different than mine, and I see a lot of folks who often do. I'd rather read posts from both camps rather than see one or the other being shouted down.

(Major exeption to that 'usually': I admittedly freak out about the folks who 'don't care' about walks in a baseball game, and play 'strikes-only' online games. Those people are non-humans! )

[GTHobbes]

Sliders are one thing...

I downloaded the PS3 demo last night and one of the first things I noticed was that on passes, the ball doesn't even spin correctly. 2 of the 4 passes I threw with Eli Manning actually rotated counter-clockwise, and the other 2 didn't rotate at all...instead they just went 15-25 yards downfield like a knuckleball, with no spin at all. How could no one at Tiburon notice that? Do they have monkeys testing these games?

[Brando70]

Then you have bigger issues, like robo-QBs. This wasn't by accident, someone had to tweak the gameplay so most QBs throw for 70%.

That worries me more than sliders. They had to say, we think our consumer will enjoy QBs being able to dominate the game. And we do not want to tweak it becuase this is our vision of the game.

Exactly. Sliders couldn't fix the amount of defensive TDs, or put fatigue in the year before. Madden has struggled tremendously on the new consoles, and I think EA needs to walk before it can run. Sliders are the least of Madden's issues.

They did say that the patch is coming on day 1, and given that they acknowledged the QB accuracy issue in NCAA, I wonder if it will address this. I will give them credit -- the patch last year for Madden did improve the passing game quite a bit. It just didn't fix enough of the other issues.

I also believe we'll need to rechristen this "Madden: theory and practice" and start a new Impressions thread when the game actually comes out

[Bill_Abner]

F Abner. All the guy has to do all day is play videogames. Nice but if I did that, I would overanalyze everything too.

Damn! That's a bit harsh!

[Jared]

First, could just develop a game that appeals to BOTH the "hardcore" players and the "arcade" players. Just change the gameplay based on difficulty levels, or have an arcade mode and a sim mode.

And as for the "fun" or "arcade" category of players, I really don't think they (the "casual gamer") minds realism. I've played NCAA with friends that don't play nearly as many games as we do, and just love being able to play with their alma mater. And they instantly were pissed that punts were jacked up, and commented that the passing game was too easy. Of course, I was playing against people in their 30s, so it's possible that a 13-year-old wouldn't care. But I think the casual gamer market actually likes sim-play, as long as controls are tight and the game is fun. (And it is possible to have a fun, sim-style game.)

What would make sense is to just develop a game engine that works really well for the sim player, and then change some attributes to make it fun for the arcade player. Why don't they do this? It's either an explicit design choice (which makes no sense to me), or EA/Tiburon doesn't have talented enough programmers now to make a well-balanced, good (in the sim + fun sense of the word) football game.

So, with all that said I just enjoy that fact that I have the opportunity play games that resemble my favorite sport and are fun to play. Are they perfect? Nah, but I'm not gonna nitpick this s*** frame-by-frame just to find problems and b*tch about them on youtube.

Call me "sheeple" or easily amused. I just think that if you can't have fun playing these games then maybe you shouldn't be playing them.

I have lots of fun with console sports games. See the whole Winning Eleven series (except last year), College Hoops 2K8, NBA 2K8, MLB 08 (this game still wows me), NHL 08, High Heat, the last few MVPs, NCAA 04, etc. Hell, I don't think I'd have a website about sports games if I didn't have fun with them. I don't have fun with games that aren't relatively realistic depictions of the sport, or have poor/limited control, or are missing important features that should be in a game, or are a step back from much older versions in the same series.

[wco81]

Here's my thing... I haven't forgotten what it was like almost 30 years ago when it comes to playing videogame football.

The atari 2600 with 3-on-3 one a horizontal field where I could control the football after I through it and the 3 men were about the size of 30 yards..give or take.

When Atari's "Real Sports" football came out I was ecstatic! I enjoyed other games for several years which led me to Joe Montana Football and Madden on the Genesis.

I was in disbelief at the fact that I could actually be #78 on Buffalo's D-Line. I mean "Holy Sh!t, that's BRUCE SMITH! THAT'S AWESOME!!!"

I remember those days well and at the time if I would have known where football games were going to go I would bursting with excitement at the thought of what I'd be playing in the future.

So, with all that said I just enjoy that fact that I have the opportunity play games that resemble my favorite sport and are fun to play. Are they perfect? Nah, but I'm not gonna nitpick this s*** frame-by-frame just to find problems and b*tch about them on youtube.

Call me "sheeple" or easily amused. I just think that if you can't have fun playing these games then maybe you shouldn't be playing them.

Games have certainly come a long way if you put it in the context of that long a timeframe.

But Madden has stagnated for at least 10 years. The fundamental interactions of OL/DL, CB/WR, the pass defense AI, etc. have been the same across generations and platforms. The gameplay feel has not changed in a very long time, for more than half of Madden's 20-year existence.

The graphics have obviously changed and features or options come and go. People criticize the versions of Madden for the current generation for lacking certain options in franchise mode or features like formation audibles which were in the last generation. But these are like options on a car. It's the core chassis which is antiquated.

So you get the same bump and run you got 10 years ago on the PC, the same suction-blocking, the same pinball running in traffic, the same reliance on LBs and DBs either making super jumps or warping to close on a receiver (because they were so out of position in the first place).

And this doesn't have anything to do with the exclusive license. EA hasn't shown any inclination to change the basic gameplay when there were several competitors.

I used to think this was due to inertia because as the market leader, they had no reason to change and endanger a winning formula. But now, you wonder if it isn't because they don't know any other way. They may just be incapable of writing new AI algorithms (although they can always come up with new marketing labels for the same old AI, like "Liquid AI" or now, "Dynamic DNA" or whatever they're calling the gimmick for NBA Live 09).

The unfortunate thing about the exclusive license isn't that there are no other competitors to push EA into doing better. EA wouldn't have changed or scrapped the core Madden engine unless sales completely tanked and they had to build a completely new game, which could take a couple of years, meaning they might have been out of the market for 2 or 3 years.

It's more that there aren't others coming up with a completely different way to render the sport. Well there are the Backbreaker guys who are offering to bring more advanced technology to the genre but their efforts will probably be overlooked by most of the market.

[XXXIV]

I also believe we'll need to rechristen this "Madden: theory and practice" and start a new Impressions thread when the game actually comes out

[Danimal]

I don't even have words to express my disappointment with the sliders. I'm still getting the game mainly for Head Coach, unless Bill posts some really bad impressions on that before the 12th.

Apparently the human sliders work so the loss should not affect head to head play. I'll give it a shot and maybe it will play ok, maybe someone can figure out human sliders to make it good.

The one thing I keep in mind that gives m hope is everyone is a different level of player so things might not be as bad for person a as person b. But I really couldn't even imagine the though process of getting rid of these.

[Leebo33]

I'm on the same page as Web on this topic. I enjoy this forum and the people on it, but I think we've become way too predictable and boring on both sides of the fun/casual/hardcore debate. Just the fact that we can have a "F Abner" post without any reaction kind of indicates to me the way this board has turned against the so-called "hardcore" sports gamer. I know it was probably a joke and Siam is a nut, but there have been other posts in other threads from other people that kind of hints at the same thing. Guys taking their time to speak about what they see/enjoy/hate shouldn't have to have their contributions greeted with the inevitable sarcasm of posters talking about how they must have got the "special" copy or extolling the virtues of just having fun like folks with a negative impression are loathing, fun-hating, pricks. I'm am totally cool if this community continues to lean towards casual gaming, but it is important to note that it is heading that way. I know I'll still come here for the fun OT threads and to "hang out" either way.

Some people need to understand that users critical of games *can* enjoy them and have fun! There are *very* few posters here that I think have agendas, bias against companies, or unreasonable complaints. Even if I do think they have bias I enjoy reading their posts and getting a laugh. The other night I played a game of NCAA Football where my freakin' defensive lineman didn't rush the passer...they just stood at the line of scrimmage (but the offensive line continued to block where they *should have been*). This was on the most important last play of the game. The QB stood for about 10 seconds and then threw a pick...LOL. I thought it was ridiculous, but I still had fun (don't ask me what I would have done if I had lost). I've lowered my standards so much for NCAA in hopes of a fun experience against the CPU that my new idea of fun is trying to win the Heisman (going to be hard to do with Evan Royster when CPU QBs are throwing 56 TDs a season though but his inflated punt returns may help) and the NC.

In fairness, there have been shots both ways and the "hardcore", "realism", or whatever term you want to use crowd needs to realize that the casual/fun crowd aren't a bunch of mediocre accepting, easy pleasing, rose-colored glasses-wearing sissies

[pk500]

Leebo and Web are exactly right.

Console gaming didn't become a billion-dollar business by catering to a niche. It caters to the masses, and the masses are comprised almost exclusively of casual players, of Madden Nation guys who think nothing of dropping back 30 yards and launching bombs. Think of Vince Vaughn playing NHL 95 in "Swingers" -- ROENICK! -- and that's about 96.4 percent of your sports gaming population.

You're delusional if you think otherwise.

I think the crossing of the critical mass threshold by console gaming has created both a schism and a conundrum, especially for team sports gaming.

The schism is evident: Console team sports games are drifting more toward relaxed sims with arcadish bells and whistles. It's getting to the point that if you want as pure of a sim as the virtual world can produce in team sports games, you need to head to the PC and mod the sh*t out of the game with the great work done by the mod communities.

But that also creates a conundrum, as game companies -- especially EA -- are stopping production of PC sports games because they're not profitable. Why are they not profitable? Because no one buys them. And that's an even further indication that the hardcore community is WAY smaller than some think, because I don't know a person who plays PC sports games -- including me -- who doesn't mod the hell out of them to get even more realism.

Another conundrum is that the online sports gaming experience on PC's blows boxcar-sized chunks compared to that on consoles in terms of communication, ease of finding and creating games, avoiding mod conflicts, mismatches, etc. So even if you had a great PC game modded to perfection, it would be impossible to replicate the ease and features of Xbox Live in a PC environment.

My only current and probably future genre of sports gaming -- auto racing -- has featured this schism for years. If you want mass-market, fun, accessible, beer-and-pretzels racing games, you head to consoles. If you want as pure of a sim as this hobby can provide, you head to the PC.

Thankfully the conundrum isn't present in racing games, as the PC still remains somewhat fertile ground for racing game developers and modders. And rFactor's excellent online interface combined with Teamspeak is a halfway-decent poor man's replication of Live on the Xbox, not the 360. Good enough for me.

Still, with market pressures directing the video game industry more than ever, consoles will be the convenience store of video gaming while the PC will be the brewpub. If you want Budweiser or Miller Lite, go to the convenience store. If you want a regional craftbrew, go to the brewpub.

I'm no expert, but I do have the perspective of someone who was a hardcore console gaming as recently as three years ago who has shifted exclusively to PC.

Take care,
PK

[WPatrick]

F Abner. All the guy has to do all day is play videogames. Nice but if I did that, I would overanalyze everything too.

Damn! That's a bit harsh!

I really don't think he would be man enough to make that statement face to face, it's easy to talk smack on the internet where there are no consequences.


Bill, I appreciate your work. You are a tough in depth reviewer. Quality reviews are in very short supply within this industry. Without yourself, Bill Harris and Terry Crouch quality reviews would be almost non existent.

[sportdan30]

Additional info from the Senior Designer. Here's a little bit more clarification:

http://www.operationsports.com/forums/m ... rs-ea.html

[Bill_Abner]

F Abner. All the guy has to do all day is play videogames. Nice but if I did that, I would overanalyze everything too.

Damn! That's a bit harsh!

I really don't think he would be man enough to make that statement face to face, it's easy to talk smack on the internet where there are no consequences.

I really took that as tongue in cheek more than a blatant FU!

But I appreciate the comments.

[MizzouRah]

For the past 3 years I've felt sliders were a bad thing and much like MizzouRah a crutch for the developers.

I agree and I think Mizz should be removed from next year's Madden.

[MizzouRah]

The thing I hate about the rushing IQ test is it tells you what button to press when in the game, you don't have that luxury - so you're actually better in that test than you would be in the game.

I'm done with realism in console sports video games, all I want is a resemblence of real life, but I know if I control a player, my actions should be tied to how good I am (with some real life ratings taken into effect). Who doesn't want to take that no name player and make them an all-pro?

Seriously, I have text sims for the ultimate realism.

The things I won't tolerate are CPU running games that are non-exsistant and some things Bill has pointed out like the CPU QB's throwing near perfect completion percentages.. that I would gladly tweak a slider for... BUT I am a HUGE believer in playing a game on defaults and making "subtle" slider tweaks.

Anything beyond that and the fun stops and I move on.

[JRod]

PK,

There's one problem with that...

What games are the top sellers. Just becuase we call them casual gamers doesn't mean they want a casual experience. They could come into with the expectation of Farve playing like Farve. Seeing the Crosby and Roenick.

EA has led us to beleive that casual gamers are stupid consumers that want pretty graphics, 5 minute game modes with no concern of gameplay or AI.

If this was the case NBA Live would sell a lot more games. Games play Sega Sports arcade baseball title would be a number 1 seller.

Do they live in an alternate football universe where their Sunday Ticket shows every QB throwing completions every pass. I think even casual gamers can spot some of the issues in sports games. They might not mess with sliders but I don't think they are sports "stupid" just because they game less.


And the comment about Abner, I think we all passed on it because we tend not to respond to the ridiculous. We are not OS. Hell the other day someone got an infraction because he was posting in the Madden slider thread but said he wasn't going to get the game. That got an infraction at OS.

If there's anything to get mad at Bill (Abner), it's because he has NFL Head Coach and is not giving us impressions. Come on Bill, give some impressions about Head Coach!

[WPatrick]

Damn! That's a bit harsh!

I really don't think he would be man enough to make that statement face to face, it's easy to talk smack on the internet where there are no consequences.

I really took that as tongue in cheek more than a blatant FU!

But I appreciate the comments.

Ok, urmmm uncomfortable pause.... cough... no offence intended.

[XXXIV]

Come on Bill, give some impressions about Head Coach!

Yeah....what up with that?...Give!

[pk500]

PK,

There's one problem with that...

What games are the top sellers. Just becuase we call them casual gamers doesn't mean they want a casual experience. They could come into with the expectation of Farve playing like Farve. Seeing the Crosby and Roenick.

EA has led us to beleive that casual gamers are stupid consumers that want pretty graphics, 5 minute game modes with no concern of gameplay or AI.

If this was the case NBA Live would sell a lot more games. Games play Sega Sports arcade baseball title would be a number 1 seller.

John:

You may have missed this line from my prior post:

>>>Console team sports games are drifting more toward relaxed sims with arcadish bells and whistles.<<<

Anyone who mistakes NBA Live for even a relaxed sim is nuts!

Take care,
PK

[Leebo33]

Come on Bill, give some impressions about Head Coach!

Yeah....what up with that?...Give!

OK. I'm with ya. F Abner until we get HC impressions!