OT: 2008 Elections/Politics thread, Part 2

[RobVarak]

Wrong. There are plenty of fat poor people in New Zealand and in many of other countries. Pull your head out of your ass, wipe the s*** off your face, and open your eyes to the rest of the world.

Whoa! That's way over the line IMO.

[Brando70]

I really don't understand the problem with universal health care coverage. I'm not about to suggest what system is best, but I can't see why we can't have an easier, more cost-effective way to ensure coverage for everyone. I'd rather give people access to affordable health care than hand out welfare.

I am college educated and have great health care through my wife's job (damn those socialist universities with their attractive benefit packages). Having said that, even I am challenged sometimes to figure out what's covered and not covered, how much, whether I have to pay a deductible, etc. I just went to the eye doctor for my annual checkup and to get a new year's worth of contacts. Cost: $270 with my insurance. Not that big of an expense for me, and I suppose that I could just wear my glasses all the time, but contacts are much more convenient for me in daily life (i.e. they don't fog up when it's 20 degrees in April). My doctor can't tell me why I got charged that, so I either need to call and speak to my provider or dig out the Fat Book of Coverage Gibberish to find out.

This is as much of a problem as coverage itself. Why are there unused programs? Because people don't know about them, because they are very confusing to figure out, and because they make as much sense as airline ticket pricing. There should be a simpler, more transparent way for every person in this country to get covered, from routine visits to advanced surgery, without drowning in red tape or being overwhelmed financially. For all the tongue bathing on the benefits of privatization, I haven't seen private health coverage prevent either of those two problems.

[JackB1]

Anyone who thinks that our current health care system "works" or is the best in the world really is delusional. Insurance companies hire people who's sole purpose is to look for minuscule ways to deny people coverage. Thousands routinely die every year while waiting for the insurance companies to play the red tape game or refuse to cover necessary procedures/operations.

According to the Institute of Medicine, "lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States. Although America leads the world in spending on health care, it is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage."
http://www.iom.edu/?id=19175

The US Govt spent $100 million in order to prevent Hillary's healthcare proposal from getting passed. Can anyone guess why?
Also, Hillary Clinton became the second largest recipient in the Senate of health care industry contributions. Clinton is received hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from doctors, hospitals, drug manufacturers and insurers. Nationwide, she is the No. 2 recipient of donations from the industry.

The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, this report finds:
http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-44.html

[pk500]

While the U.S. health care system isn't perfect, why are proponents of socialized medicine pulling the blinders over their eyes about the problems of government-run medicine?

Realities such as longer waits for care, lower access to equipment, etc., etc.:

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/heal ... ml#britain

If socialized medicine is so great, then why did former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi come to the U.S. for a heart operation?

People's blind trust in government is astounding. Name me one government agency that runs efficiently, that you would trust with your money.

A more chilling thought: Do you want the entity that created the IRS, which designed the current Byzantine tax code, to tackle the even more complex beast known as universal health care?

There's almost no chance the U.S. government could pull that off without royally f*cking it up through much higher taxes, poor care, red tape, etc. If you think the insurance companies have red tape, the Federal government could repave the entire U.S. Interstate system with the red cellophane it creates.

An interesting look at the pros and cons of socialized medicine:

http://www.balancedpolitics.org/univers ... h_care.htm

Take care,
PK

[wco81]

Little-known is that most insurance plans have a lifetime cap of around a $1 million dollars.

One catastrophic illness requiring months of hospitalization will eat through that cap and you'd be financially responsible for the rest.

US is the only country where people go bankrupt because of medical bills.

Some financial advisors will tell you to opt out of your employer-funded coverage and buy your own plan just a few years before retirement. The idea is to get grandfathered into a long-term plan before you develop any chronic conditions so that you can't be denied coverage for preexisting conditions.

[pk500]

Some financial advisors will tell you to opt out of your employer-funded coverage and buy your own plan just a few years before retirement. The idea is to get grandfathered into a long-term plan before you develop any chronic conditions so that you can't be denied coverage for preexisting conditions.

It's a better option than being rejected for coverage or care due to age, examples of which can be found in socialized medicine programs.

Take care,
PK

[Jackdog]

Wrong. There are plenty of fat poor people in New Zealand and in many of other countries. Pull your head out of your ass, wipe the s*** off your face, and open your eyes to the rest of the world.

Never been there.Didn't see too many fat poor New Zealanders in East Detroit. Spent most of my time in Africa and the Middle East. You know the countries where people are killing themselves to come to the United States. They must have their heads up their asses too.

Yeah, anyone can go go to the ER, and then get stuck with a bill they will never be able to afford to pay because hospitals charge astronomical sums for even basic treatment as they are based on what insurance companies pay.

http://www.cbpp.org/7-19-05acc.htm

Your personal decision to join/remain with the military has nothing to do with whether it's fair for the millions in this country wihout health insurance to be one unlucky accident away from having their life ruined.

You asked me a question. I gave you my answer.

[Jackdog]

While the U.S. health care system isn't perfect, why are proponents of socialized medicine pulling the blinders over their eyes about the problems of government-run medicine?

Realities such as longer waits for care, lower access to equipment, etc., etc.:

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/heal ... ml#britain

If socialized medicine is so great, then why did former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi come to the U.S. for a heart operation?

Must have had his head up his ass with s*** in his eyes.

People's blind trust in government is astounding. Name me one government agency that runs efficiently, that you would trust with your money.

A more chilling thought: Do you want the entity that created the IRS, which designed the current Byzantine tax code, to tackle the even more complex beast known as universal health care?

There's almost no chance the U.S. government could pull that off without royally f*cking it up through much higher taxes, poor care, red tape, etc. If you think the insurance companies have red tape, the Federal government could repave the entire U.S. Interstate system with the red cellophane it creates.

An interesting look at the pros and cons of socialized medicine:

http://www.balancedpolitics.org/univers ... h_care.htm

Take care,
PK

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_c ... hcare.html

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.

[matthewk]

I think you misunderstood. I meant you say, that people here lump those three categories together as waste.

#1, #2 and #3 have always been waste in my house.

[Brando70]

If socialized medicine is so great, then why did former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi come to the U.S. for a heart operation?

People's blind trust in government is astounding. Name me one government agency that runs efficiently, that you would trust with your money.

The idea that government is always inefficient is as much of a myth as private sector always being efficient.

I am no socialist -- as Austin Powers would say, Yay capitalism! And I'm not arguing for government-run health care. But I think the current system is as wasteful and inefficient as the nightmare scenario envisioned by the universal health coverage boogeymen.

If you are rich like, say, an Italian Prime Minister, you can no doubt find a better private solution than what the proletariat have to contend with. That's fine by me. I just think people who depend on health coverage should not be financially ruined by health problems. Even with good coverage, you can reach your caps or be on the hook for a large portion of your bill. A lot of things like dental often only cover half your costs outside of the basics.

I have been through socialized medicine. When my dad was in the Navy, that's what we had. You got sick or needed to see a doctor, you went to the nearest military base or hospital. We did give up some choice, but we never had to worry about not having medical coverage. I'd rather have coverage and no choices than lots of choices and no coverage.

[Teal]

Wrong. There are plenty of fat poor people in New Zealand and in many of other countries. Pull your head out of your ass, wipe the s*** off your face, and open your eyes to the rest of the world.

Whoa! That's way over the line IMO.

Yep. That was pretty damn stupid.

[webdanzer]

Wrong. There are plenty of fat poor people in New Zealand and in many of other countries. Pull your head out of your ass, wipe the s*** off your face, and open your eyes to the rest of the world.

Whoa! That's way over the line IMO.

Yep. That was pretty damn stupid.

This was following a straight up 'F*** you,' by Jack to Feanor, so I actually don't see it being all that out of line with that.

Besides, Jackdog is a big boy! He took it and ran with it no problem!

[Jackdog]

Whoa! That's way over the line IMO.

Yep. That was pretty damn stupid.

This was following a straight up 'F*** you,' by Jack to Feanor, so I actually don't see it being all that out of line with that.

Besides, Jackdog is a big boy! He took it and ran with it no problem!

Yeah fellas it was no biggie. I started it. Thanks none the less!

[Teal]

Well, from where I was sitting, the FU was warranted-but hey, maybe that's just me...

...I'm not defending Jack by any means. He's been defending me and himself pretty damn well over the years. It was pretty damn stupid from any angle.

[RobVarak]

My family often exchagned "FU's" over Thanksgiving dinner, so that didn't really strike me as inappropriate

[webdanzer]

I was just strickly weighing the usage of profanity, not taking any sides.

I F*** about equals a S*** + an Ass on the profanity scale, no?

And to be on topic, I think losing choice is actually a pretty big deal in medical treatment, coming off a personal experience where I had seen two specialists about a condition, one who was right, and one wrong. I would have hated to have been stuck with the wrong one.

[Teal]

I was just strickly weighing the usage of profanity, not taking any sides.

I F*** about equals a S*** + an Ass on the profanity scale, no?

And to be on topic, I think losing choice is actually a pretty big deal in medical treatment, coming off a personal experience where I had seen two specialists about a condition, one who was right, and one wrong. I would have hated to have been stuck with the wrong one.

The answer is in MORE choice, not less. Open up the market to more competition in health care, and less governmental restricitions, and you'll see the price of health care fall, the quality of care rise, and the availability increase.

Socialized health care is not a good idea at all.

[Jared]

Feanor's response was in kind to Jackdog's first rejoinder, so I don't think either person's comments were worse. However, the tone in the thread has gotten too hostile in the last couple of pages. These can be heated issues, so I understand people getting worked up...but please be respectful of each other. Obviously people like posting in OT threads on stuff like politics...so I don't want to have to have a moratorium on those threads. Keep it civil.

[Brando70]

I was just strickly weighing the usage of profanity, not taking any sides.

I F*** about equals a S*** + an Ass on the profanity scale, no?

And to be on topic, I think losing choice is actually a pretty big deal in medical treatment, coming off a personal experience where I had seen two specialists about a condition, one who was right, and one wrong. I would have hated to have been stuck with the wrong one.

The answer is in MORE choice, not less. Open up the market to more competition in health care, and less governmental restricitions, and you'll see the price of health care fall, the quality of care rise, and the availability increase.

Socialized health care is not a good idea at all.

I see Web's point, and I'm not trying to say we shouldn't have choice. You should always be able to see another doctor for another opinion.

But even if you removed regulations, you're not going to see much more competition in health care. It's an expensive business, the kind where you're only going to have a few players. It's not like regulations prevent me from opening Brando's Beaver Trading Post and Medical Clinic.

I also guarantee if you remove those restrictions, you will see more cost-cutting measures at the expense of clients. On top of that, most people have no real choice in their health insurance because it's tied to their work. They can either accept the coverage provided, get another job with a different provider, or buy private insurance. For most people, the last two options are not really financially feasible. You're often stuck with the health coverage of your job unless your spouse has a better plan or you get a different job.

[pk500]

It's not like regulations prevent me from opening Brando's Beaver Trading Post and Medical Clinic.

Wow, a whorehouse with free condoms and antibiotics. Cool!

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

It's not like regulations prevent me from opening Brando's Beaver Trading Post and Medical Clinic.

Wow, a whorehouse with free condoms and antibiotics. Cool!

Take care,
PK

It's the perfect merger of supply and demand.

[Jared]

Enough is enough. I'm sick of reading this horsesh*t that there is absolutely no safety net for the uninsured in this country.

PK,

That uncompensated care is primarily from people that come into the ER to get service. Often what happens are a few things.

1) Some comes into the ER for something big w/o health insurance. They get a giant bill (routine ER costs are astronomical, if you've ever seen a bill). They can't pay, get a giant bill, get harassed by bill collectors, get a poor credit score, etc. It destroys them financially. Yes, they get the care...but at the cost of bankruptcy (and the #1 reason for personal bankruptcy in the US is medical bills).

2) Some people w/o health insurance know that the ER will always take them, and don't care about bills/credit/etc. So they treat the ER like a clinic, clogging the ER with cases that really don't belong there, and making treatment.

3) People w/o health insurance are MUCH less likely to come in for preventative care because they can't pay. Because of that, they don't tend to come into the doctor's office until little things (that could have been taken care of easily and cheaply) become big problems that cost a lot of money. They don't have insurance, so #1 happens.

And many times, the taxpayer ends up footing the bill. The thing is, if you have a system where the uninsured have access to preventative care, you help improve a lot of health problems. And there are clear benefits to people not being financially ruined if they get sick.

[pk500]

And many times, the taxpayer ends up footing the bill. The thing is, if you have a system where the uninsured have access to preventative care, you help improve a lot of health problems. And there are clear benefits to people not being financially ruined if they get sick.

All of which is based on the idea that government can provide comprehensive, efficient care for all of its citizens, which socialized medicine programs have proved to be false.

Take care,
PK

[fsquid]

Here's a quick way to reduce health costs. Tort Reform.

[JackB1]

That uncompensated care is primarily from people that come into the ER to get service. Often what happens are a few things.

1) Some comes into the ER for something big w/o health insurance. They get a giant bill (routine ER costs are astronomical, if you've ever seen a bill). They can't pay, get a giant bill, get harassed by bill collectors, get a poor credit score, etc. It destroys them financially. Yes, they get the care...but at the cost of bankruptcy (and the #1 reason for personal bankruptcy in the US is medical bills).

2) Some people w/o health insurance know that the ER will always take them, and don't care about bills/credit/etc. So they treat the ER like a clinic, clogging the ER with cases that really don't belong there, and making treatment.

3) People w/o health insurance are MUCH less likely to come in for preventative care because they can't pay. Because of that, they don't tend to come into the doctor's office until little things (that could have been taken care of easily and cheaply) become big problems that cost a lot of money. They don't have insurance, so #1 happens.

And many times, the taxpayer ends up footing the bill. The thing is, if you have a system where the uninsured have access to preventative care, you help improve a lot of health problems. And there are clear benefits to people not being financially ruined if they get sick.

Very well said Jared. I think we are all thinking about healthcare in terms of our own perspectives, which is probably better off than most people (since we can afford to buy consoles, games, gadgets, etc). We need a system that focuses more on preventative care.