EA's broken game (MVP lefty bug)

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:17 pm

I would say stealing experiments is similar (maybe not to the extent as witnessed with EA games) but goalie editing is pretty common with all sports games that let you edit player abilities. We all like to adjust the game to our liking and goalie editing would fall into that realm IMO. I don't mean to discredit you or anything like that, it's just that I don't take much stock in these little experiments people do to EA games since there is such a huge EA bashing community. I've learned to ignore things like this that I haven't personally noticed because I just don't think it warrants any of my time investigating since I'd rather just have fun with the game. There are some glaring issues in this game but I still have fun playing it and I can live with it.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:30 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:There are some glaring issues in this game but I still have fun playing it and I can live with it.

That's fine, Scoop, and that's everyone's own decision to make. I can deal with every other issue in the game other than this.

In fact, I like this game over MLB right now although I believe MLB has less flaws.

I guess I can understand the gut-reaction if you believe there is an environment of EA bashing out there, (which I agree with you to some extent), but I don't believe I've ever seen the ridicule out there now directed towrds those who are bringing this issue up. Some of the OS mods have been outright condescending towards folks on their board, and I'm tired of hearing 'You Just Suck."

If I thought I had observed it during regular gameplay, then 'tested it' in HRD mode and by switching player batting sides during regular games, then watched every hit on replay for a while, and STILL thought I was correct in seeing this, I believe I should have a right to bring this problem up.

At least as much as the people saying "You suck, I hit homers."

And if Clinton-Monica taught us anything, it's that in scandalous accusatory issues, the underlying reason is not usually some vast conspiracy, but the simple fact that someone f***ed up.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:24 pm

Theres an anti EA conspiracy?

Now thats funny.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:44 am

Calm down scoop. I have done a lot testing for both the lefty bug and stealing. I also happen to like the game a lot. Forgive me for trying to find out exactly what is going on so that someone can maybe find a fix for it. I'm not looking to tear EA apart. If you read through the posts here you'll see I've been one of it's stringest defenders.

-Matt

Post by **Jared** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:51 am

OK.

There definitely IS a lefty bug for HRs.

Research: I took J. Dowd for the SF Giants (right handed, power rating of 99, contact rating of 98) against a player I created. His name is D. Man, also plays for the Giants, has a power rating of 99, a contact rating of 99, and is LEFT HANDED.

I had the computer play seven rounds of home run derby, with the first to 10,000 feet winning. Three rounds were in Olympic Stadium (chosen because of it's symmetry), two rounds at Hiram Bithorne (symmetric and shorter fences), and two rounds at Yankee Stadium (because it's good for LH hitters). Here are the results:

J. Dowd (RH) - 96
D. Man (LH) - 24

The right handed J. Dowd, who has the exact same power ratings as the left handed D. Man, hits FOUR TIMES as many home runs. Here's the breakdown, by ballpark:

Olympic Stadium
J. Dowd (RH) - 37
D. Man (LH) - 7

Yankee Stadium
J. Dowd (RH) - 29
D. Man (LH) - 9

Hiram Bithorne Stadium
J. Dowd (RH) - 30
D. Man (LH) - 8

Fairly consistent ratios, although D. Man (LH) does a little better in smaller parks and parks with short right field power alleys. But still...J. Dowd is much better.

So this seems like pretty strong evidence for a bias towards RH hitters for home runs. However, quite a few people have commented that they haven't seen any bias against LH batters, while others definitely see it. So I played a bunch of HR derbies with Jason Giambi and Carlos Delgado (power-hitting lefties) and noticed that it was possible to jack the ball. BUT I really had to jump on the pitch and pull it. Maybe it has something do with pulling the ball?

Well fortunately, on most of the trials for J. Down and D. Man above, I also recorded where the home run was hit for most of the trials. I marked whether it went to left, left center, center, right center, or right field. And the results were very interesting:

J. Dowd (RH)
LF - 3
LCF - 24
CF - 16
RCF - 30
RF - 5
Total - 78
% opp field - 35%
% not pulled - 55%

D. Man (LH)
LF - 0
LCF - 1
CF - 0
RCF - 15
RF - 3
Total - 19
% opp field - 5%
% not pulled - 5%

Percent opposite field means the percentage of home runs that were hit to the opposite field. So for J. Dowd, this would be the percentage of home runs that go to right center or right field divided by the total number of home runs. Notice the huge difference in the power alleys and center between the two hitters. The left handed D. Man only hit one home run the opposite way in about (estimated) 180 attempts. (The only HR that went opposite field was a line shot that barely cleared the short 360 foot power alley at Hiram Bithorne). The right handed J. Dowd hit 27 the opposite way, and 43 home runs were not pulled.

For a player with a 99 in power and contact to only hit one home run to the opposite field in about 200 attempt is pretty insane. This is the primary reason for the difference between the two players (although the right-handed Dowd still beats the left-handed Man in pulled home runs, although it is much closer, 27-18).

Now it is possible that this is simply a bug during the Home Run Derby. However, I really don't see any reason why EA would have different gameplay parameters in the derby versus the regular game.

However, the difference in pulling the ball could explain why some people notice the problem while others don't. Some players (myself included) tend to react a little later to pitches and spray lots of hits to the opposite field. Anyone that hits like that will likely see the bug. However, those that tend to jump on pitches and pull then won't see the bug nearly as much.

Now why is there a difference? I'm not completely sure. However, I can definitely say that when a LH player hits the ball, it doesn't keep rising the way that a shot hit by a RH does. Many times watching the HR derby, Dowd (RH) and Man (LH) would both drill the ball in the same direction. The lefty's shot would rocket off the bat but would drop much earlier than the right handed hitter's shot. Most of Man's hits that looked to be home runs would usually start to drop early and land at the warning track. However, the hits by Dowd would get lift as they travelled and would easily clear the fences.

This may corroborate reports that when lefties hit the ball, there is top spin; whereas this isn't the case for right handed hitters. Top spin makes the ball drop, whereas back spin puts lift on the ball. So it seems that the spin of the ball when it's hit does affect its trajectory.

We will try future tests to see if there is top spin on hits by left handers. If so, this may explain the problem. Even if this isn't the cause, there is most definitely a difference between lefties and righties in power to all fields.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:56 am

Some of my favorite games of all time have been EA games (Tiger Woods PC, NCAA football, Madden, Medal of Honor). My favorite basketball game was NBA Live and my favorite game hockey game this year was NHL 2004. I do hate EA games that suck (FIFA), but generally enjoy their products.

That said, I agree that something isn't quite right in MVP with the lefty/righty balance. At the very least I think relatively weak right handed hitters have much more opposite field power than comparable lefthanded hitters. That in itself isn't a killer for me, but the sum of all the bugs, errors, and ommissions (steal delay slider but no slider for pitcher accuracy?) takes its toll.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:47 am

I really don't want to belabor this point, but it really is fairly easy to see by just looking at how the ball comes off the bat of the lefties vs righties.

Anyway, I played a couple of games switching everyone on my team to bat from the right side, and the good news is that the ball physics instantly improved. More good news is that even though you are now standing at the opposite side of the plate, your stats don't change...meaning lefties who can't hit lefties STILL can't hit lefties...and the CPU seems to manage to your numbers rather than your positioning as well...meaning late in a game I can see the CPU bring in a lefty to face Giambi, even though he is now at the righty side of the plate.

So by switching all of your players to right handed, and leaving the ratings alone, you SHOULD be able to have players that perform according to their abilities...other than perhaps taking into account the dimensions of the ballpark.

It's just insanely stupid that we have to do this, and I think it is worth a re-issue to fix.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:02 am

Not only that Leebo, but the steal sliders don't seem to do anything at all.

It would be nic if EA admitted their mistake (ala Madden NCAA import problem), and made a fixed disk. I doubt they'll do it for this, because the problems are not soemthing you can easily prove as broken. They can always say the game plays corrcet and sliders do work, and aside from many hours of testing (which they will blow off), you can't prove these issues. The import bug was provable in 1 minute.

I am really tempted to start adjusting attributes for pitch control. WHen I've done this for starters prior to exhibition games, it had an affect. You saw more balls from the CPU, but also more grooved. Which is fine for me because I can't hit HRs right now anyways

It also made pitching harder for me. I could not hit my exact spots, and it added the element of error that MLB has.

Maybe the stealing issue can be lessened by toning down each pitchers pickoff attribute, or increasing the hitters steal frequency???

For the lefty issue, all RH could have their power attribute taken down 10 points. Since the big power guys are in the 90s, this would work better than raising lefties up 10 (some would max out before adding much).

I have toned down the gappers with slider tweaks, so that part is good.

We shouldn't have to go through so much work just to get a game we paid $50 for to work right, but I've got some time to kill now that ESPN is still weeks away

-Matt

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:10 pm

Speaking of pitch control, some people over at OS are claiming that the "throw accuracy" slider affects pitching as well, for both user and CPU. The stats they're posting seem to back it up, but I'd like to hear from some of the fellows over here on the subject. I'm going to try and find some time to test it out myself today.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:28 pm

Slumberland wrote:Speaking of pitch control, some people over at OS are claiming that the "throw accuracy" slider affects pitching as well, for both user and CPU. The stats they're posting seem to back it up, but I'd like to hear from some of the fellows over here on the subject. I'm going to try and find some time to test it out myself today.

I tried it for a couple games and I didn't notice any difference. The bad thing is it *does* effect fielder throws for sure as I had about 3 or 4 throwing errors in both games I played this morning.

Post by **Jared** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:20 pm

Addendum:

I've confirmed the top spin/back spin difference between the two types of hitters. Played a few games with the Yankees and looked at the replays after most hits. Most hits by righties have either back spin or back and side spin.

Hits by lefties are interesting. I hit a few high fly balls by Giambi that were too deep for the third baseman but too shallow for the left fielder to get. High fly balls with little spin usually bounce upwards and don't travel that far towards the fence. But on both opposite field fly balls, the ball hit the ground and then scooted forward quickly as if the ball had wicked top spin. Viewing both hits on the replay confirmed that the ball indeed had top spin.

On another Giambi at bat, the pitcher threw a high fastball that I jumped on (hoping that I could pull it over the short porch at Yankee Stadium for a HR). The ball just didn't carry well and ended up hitting the wall for a double. So I looked at the replay to observe the ball spin. This time the ball had a mixture of top spin and side spin (my guess would be 70% top spin, 30% side spin). Interesting....

So it's possible that when hitters go the opposite way, the spin of the ball is dictated strictly by the handedness of the batter (top spin for lefties, back spin for righties). When hitters pull the ball, there might be a mixture of side spin and top or back spin, depending on the handedness of the hitter. If so, the decreased top spin on pulled balls by LH hitters may explain why they are better at pulling HRs as opposed to going the opposite field. Still need to do a few more test.....developing.......

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:49 pm

Keep up the good work jared, this is fascinating to me.

Post by **Jared** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:04 pm

Now I'm just checking online to see if LH power hitters just don't hit opposite field home runs. It's not as frequent, but they do. mlb.com has stats for where a player has hit all of their home runs in their career at each particular ballpark. Looking at Delgado, he's pulled quite a few at SkyDome over the years. But there are a LOT of home runs that went to dead center, and a decent amount that went the opposite way. Giambi's HRs are less balanced, with a lot of them bunching up in RF at both Yankee Stadium and Oakland-Alameda. Most of Bonds HRs (he's a lefty) are pulled, although he goes to deep center a lot.

As for righties, most of Sosa's shots are pulled. But for every hitter, there's a decent smattering of opposite field shots. It's definitely not that lefties just don't hit it deep to the opposite field.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:10 pm

I'm sorry, Jared.

Despite your most recent and convincing attempts at disinformation, scans of your Xbox hard drive have determined that you bear the mark of an EA bio, and actually have advanced ranks in the evil organization.

As such, you are disallowed membership in the Mighty and Glorious Ranks of P.A.N.A.C.E.A. (Pernicious Association of Naysayers, Alligned to Crush E.A.)

Immediate deletion of all EA stains on your harddrive, plus four hundred hours of community service devoted to tweaking sliders on other, more worthy, non EA titles, will grant you an audience with the elder members of our organization, allowing you to restate your case for admission.

Unless you have a bulldozer.

In which case, meet us in Times Square next weekend, where we shall prepare a mass destruction of thousands of CD's created by the infidels who dared to contribute to the mind numbing evil that is EA Trax.

Sic Semper Tyrannis!

Post by **Jared** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 6:56 pm

webdanzer wrote:I'm sorry, Jared.

Despite your most recent and convincing attempts at disinformation, scans of your Xbox hard drive have determined that you bear the mark of an EA bio, and actually have advanced ranks in the evil organization.

........

In which case, meet us in Times Square next weekend, where we shall prepare a mass destruction of thousands of CD's created by the infidels who dared to contribute to the mind numbing evil that is EA Trax.

Sic Semper Tyrannis!

Ha. Unfortunately for your conspiracy theory, I don't have an XBox. You meant a scan of my PS2 memory card, right?

Funny though...there's a lot about MVP that I really really like. But it's fascinating that a simple mistake like putting the wrong spin on LH hits could cause such a large problem (no opposite field and dead center HRs for lefties). Oh well....I'm sure many will think I'm a member of P.A.N.A.C.E.A. after reading my posts. Oh well.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:06 pm

You admit to owning a PS2? The company in bed with EA?!?!

No membership for you!!!! Even if you HAVE a bulldozer.

Could we still borrow it, though?

Nah, man. I agree with you all the way. This thing has been more frustrating to me over many other sports game flaws because I really like the game otherwise.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:27 pm

Jared wrote:
webdanzer wrote:I'm sorry, Jared.

Despite your most recent and convincing attempts at disinformation, scans of your Xbox hard drive have determined that you bear the mark of an EA bio, and actually have advanced ranks in the evil organization.

........

In which case, meet us in Times Square next weekend, where we shall prepare a mass destruction of thousands of CD's created by the infidels who dared to contribute to the mind numbing evil that is EA Trax.

Sic Semper Tyrannis!
Ha. Unfortunately for your conspiracy theory, I don't have an XBox. You meant a scan of my PS2 memory card, right?

Funny though...there's a lot about MVP that I really really like. But it's fascinating that a simple mistake like putting the wrong spin on LH hits could cause such a large problem (no opposite field and dead center HRs for lefties). Oh well....I'm sure many will think I'm a member of P.A.N.A.C.E.A. after reading my posts. Oh well.

Jared just a heads up, I did hit 2 Dead CF Hr's with Terrence Long and Brian Giles the other night on All-Star.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:14 pm

bkrich83 wrote: Jared just a heads up, I did hit 2 Dead CF Hr's with Terrence Long and Brian Giles the other night on All-Star.

That's not quite as impressive as the 450 foot line drive shot to right field I hit with Placido Polanco this morning!

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:19 pm

LOL, Leebo.

You should see the mammoth opposite field shots Jeter hits.

The good news is some of the PC guys who know how to dive into the code are beginning to investigate the lefty vs righty stuff on places like the high heat forums, etc.

If they find the problem and then mod a workaround, then maybe at least we can get a fair playing game on the PC.

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:24 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
bkrich83 wrote: Jared just a heads up, I did hit 2 Dead CF Hr's with Terrence Long and Brian Giles the other night on All-Star.
That's not quite as impressive as the 450 foot line drive shot to right field I hit with Placido Polanco this morning!

I've been playing a lot more of MVP the past two days testing out some mods, and I'm really starting to dislike the hit variety in the game. It just seems that the vast majority of the runs I score are off homers. I dunno, it just seems like the ball is dead at times until someone jacks one. And if I see one more single off the friggin' wall...

Interesting tests btw Jared.

Post by **Jared** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:06 pm

bkrich83 wrote: Jared just a heads up, I did hit 2 Dead CF Hr's with Terrence Long and Brian Giles the other night on All-Star.

What console are you playing on Brian? And do you remember who the pitcher was? It's strange...some people say they get them, while others don't. I've played about 6-7 games on a Yankees dynasty (and before the ribbing begins, I've been a Yankee fan well before the bandwagon...I was die hard when they were cellar dwellars in the early 90s) and I haven't hit or seen a lefty hit a HR. My only jacks have been with A. Rod and Sheffield. But again, I tend to go opposite field a lot more than most (probably due to my old High Heat habits, where I would just love to take lefties and hit sliders by righties the opposite way for doubles and HRs). And most of the games I've played were against the BoSox with good starters pitching, so that could be tempering things.

And funny Bill, I've felt the opposite. There haven't been many homeruns (or much offense) in my game. I'm playing on the PS2, and the ball has seemed pretty lively but neither I or the computer have had much success with home runs. I probably should play games against 4th and 5th starters though, to see more jacks personally.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:13 pm

Jared.
XBOX. Long hit a Rob Nen Slider, and Giles hit a Tomko changeup.

Post by **Jared** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:32 pm

bkrich83 wrote:Jared.
XBOX. Long hit a Rob Nen Slider, and Giles hit a Tomko changeup.

Very interesting. I'm playing on the PS2. I wonder if the problem only shows up on the PS2 and not on the XBox. I don't have an XBox so I can't test it.

So can someone out there that has MVP for the XBox do me a favor? Create two players with identical hitting stats from both sides of the plate (99 for contact, and 99 for power). Make one a lefty and one a righty.

After doing this, bring them into the Home Run derby. Set the distance for 10,000 feet and put them in a large-ish stadium with symmetrical dimensions (Olympic Stadium is a good example, though there are others that would work). You have to choose one player for you to control at the menu screens. (Set the player on All-Star.) Once you're in the contest, press start and change the controllers so that the computer controls both players.

Then record two things. First, the number of home runs hit by each player. And second, record where the HRs were hit (divide the field into Left, Left Center, Center, Right Center, and Right). Run it as many times as you can before you start to get horribly bored by watching it (2-3 rounds should be significant).

Also, watch the trajectory of the hits by each player and see if there are any noticeable differences between the lefty and the righty.

I'm very interested to see if the PS2 results are different from the XBox results. Hopefully someone will post this soon.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:40 pm

All my observations come from the Xbox version.

I've run a dozen or so HR challenges over the last few days, and I see the same things. I din't create the 99/99 guy, but I did edit Giambi to a righty and have him face himself.

The righty blew the lefty away.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:24 pm

Jared, I've run about 2 dozen showdowns. Most were CPU vs. CPU. I didn't get the exact numbers, but the righties routinely hit 3-6 HRs, while the lefties (Bonds, Giambi, Delgado, Thome) never hit more than 4.

Longest distance was 440 for RH versus 411 for LH.

-Matt