OT: 2008 Elections

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wco81
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Post by wco81 »

Some interesting numbers on the scope of the budget problems:

The fiscal damage to the United States over the last seven years is calculable. It is precisely $3,889,136,064,463, according to the Bush administration's Office of Management and Budget, which totaled up the budgetary cost to date of all the tax cuts and spending increases enacted over the past seven years. Of that nearly $4 trillion total, the administration estimates that 46 percent is tax cuts, 31 percent is defense and homeland-security spending, and 23 percent is everything else, including the prescription-drug benefit.

Even if the next president repealed the tax cuts, canceled the prescription-drug benefit, and returned defense spending to prewar levels, the added debt from eight years of these policies would not vanish—and we would be left paying roughly $100 billion annually just in added interest. Fully fixing it could take years or even decades.
http://www.slate.com/id/2188153/

One interesting claims made by the author is that health care spending is a big cause of the long-term deficit issues. Obviously that makes sense for Medicare but he's saying even the money spent on private insurance is causing problems. Some have claimed that health care costs reduces the competitiveness of American companies but I don't think I've heard the claim that the health care system as a whole is impacting the federal deficits negatively:

Health care, health care, health care. The long-run deficit is almost entirely the result of the rapid growth of health spending in both public programs like Medicare and private health insurance. Ultimately, a lasting solution will implement systemwide reforms that change the incentives facing both providers and patients. But there are some simpler steps we could take right now in Medicare. One is to end the practice of paying private managed-care plans more than we pay for people in the government's insurance plan, a step endorsed by Congress' Medicare Payment Advisory Commission. Another is to use a combination of better clinical guidelines, carrots, and sticks to reduce Medicare spending in high-spending areas.
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Post by RobVarak »

Laying the groundwork for Obama's inevitable retrenchment on Iraq continues apace.

From The New Republic:
The truth is Obama has no secret plan for Iraq. Interviews with nearly two dozen foreign policy and military experts, as well as Obama's campaign advisers, and a close review of Obama's own statements on Iraq, suggest something more nuanced. What he is offering is a basic vision of withdrawal with muddy particulars, one his advisers are still formulating and one that, if he is elected, is destined to meet an even muddier reality on the ground. Obama has set a clear direction for U.S. policy in Iraq: He wants us out of Iraq; but he's not willing to do it at any cost--even if it means dashing the hopes of some of his more fervent and naïve supporters. And, when it comes to Iraq, whatever the merits of Obama's withdrawal plan may be, "Yes, We Can" might ultimately yield to "No, we can't."
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Post by dougb »

RobVarak wrote:Laying the groundwork for Obama's inevitable retrenchment on Iraq continues apace.

From The New Republic:
The truth is Obama has no secret plan for Iraq. Interviews with nearly two dozen foreign policy and military experts, as well as Obama's campaign advisers, and a close review of Obama's own statements on Iraq, suggest something more nuanced. What he is offering is a basic vision of withdrawal with muddy particulars, one his advisers are still formulating and one that, if he is elected, is destined to meet an even muddier reality on the ground. Obama has set a clear direction for U.S. policy in Iraq: He wants us out of Iraq; but he's not willing to do it at any cost--even if it means dashing the hopes of some of his more fervent and naïve supporters. And, when it comes to Iraq, whatever the merits of Obama's withdrawal plan may be, "Yes, We Can" might ultimately yield to "No, we can't."
If Bush decides to have a go at Iran later this year we may all be looking back 'fondly' at the current morass in Iraq - who'd have thunk?

Meanwhile the economic impacts of the home mortgage and financial industry fiasco and high oil prices look to be edging the world economy to the cliff edge. Can you spell Stagflation? I remember back in the recession in 80-81 where a bank was offering a free coffee if you took out a $60,000 mortgage. Good times!

Perhaps if wheat and rice prices skyrocket too much we could institute a new reality TV show where the top financial industry CEO's and cable TV pundits are placed on a game reserve and the unemployed and destitute get to go out and hunt them down for food. I hear some of them have gotten well fattened up on their salaries and stock options.

Best wishes,

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Post by Macca00 »

dougb wrote: Perhaps if wheat and rice prices skyrocket too much we could institute a new reality TV show where the top financial industry CEO's and cable TV pundits are placed on a game reserve and the unemployed and destitute get to go out and hunt them down for food. I hear some of them have gotten well fattened up on their salaries and stock options.
lol I love it! Mr. Brunton, you're a genius! :)
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Post by wco81 »

Election as usual isn't going to be shaped by debate on the problems, including the war, which are facing us.

It's going to be about how patriotic a candidate is and what cultural values he or she represents or fails to represent.

What folly it was to think it might be different this time.
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Post by XXXIV »

wco81 wrote:Election as usual isn't going to be shaped by debate on the problems, including the war, which are facing us.

It's going to be about how patriotic a candidate is and what cultural values he or she represents or fails to represent.

What folly it was to think it might be different this time.
f*** elections!!!!

I think that you should get rid of the system and place a president to YOUR liking....

:lol:

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Post by pk500 »

wco81 wrote:Election as usual isn't going to be shaped by debate on the problems, including the war, which are facing us.

It's going to be about how patriotic a candidate is and what cultural values he or she represents or fails to represent.

What folly it was to think it might be different this time.
I agree, in theory. But if gas is pushing toward $4.50 per gallon by Labor Day, then I think the issue of the economy will be almost as important as if a candidate wears a flag lapel pin and has a shelf full of Lee Greenwood albums at home.

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Post by Jackdog »

JackDog wrote:Staying on the subject of religion and the election. Fri Jan 11, 2008

Check out the website of Obama's church.
http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:
Commitment to God
Commitment to the Black Community
Commitment to the Black Family
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

Do you think that if John McCain or Mitt Romney's local church talked about the White Community, White Institutions, and the White Value System that it would have gotten more attention from the Media than this has? Talk about a double standard.
Biting Obama in the ass now. IMO,not enough to cost him the nomination,but enough to cost him the White House.
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Post by Smurfy »

With everyone bickering over McCain, Obama, and Clinton, let's not forget there's another candidate in 2008 who's responsible for the saving of thousands of American lives for over four decades...

So how about giving Nader/Gonzalez a try in 2008?

http://www.votenader.org/about/
http://www.votenader.org/news/
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Post by Teal »

Smurfy wrote:With everyone bickering over McCain, Obama, and Clinton, let's not forget there's another candidate in 2008 who's responsible for the saving of thousands of American lives for over four decades...

So how about giving Nader/Gonzalez a try in 2008?

http://www.votenader.org/about/
http://www.votenader.org/news/

Well, we've been so focused on Moe, Larry, and Curly, that I completely forgot about Shemp-thanks for the reminder, Smurfy! :)
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Post by JRod »

Smurfy wrote:With everyone bickering over McCain, Obama, and Clinton, let's not forget there's another candidate in 2008 who's responsible for the saving of thousands of American lives for over four decades...

So how about giving Nader/Gonzalez a try in 2008?

http://www.votenader.org/about/
http://www.votenader.org/news/
Eight years of Bush because of this guy.
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Post by XXXIV »

tealboy03 wrote:
Smurfy wrote:With everyone bickering over McCain, Obama, and Clinton, let's not forget there's another candidate in 2008 who's responsible for the saving of thousands of American lives for over four decades...

So how about giving Nader/Gonzalez a try in 2008?

http://www.votenader.org/about/
http://www.votenader.org/news/

Well, we've been so focused on Moe, Larry, and Curly, that I completely forgot about Shemp-thanks for the reminder, Smurfy! :)
I like Curly Joe
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Post by Smurfy »

tealboy03 wrote:Well, we've been so focused on Moe, Larry, and Curly, that I completely forgot about Shemp-thanks for the reminder, Smurfy! :)
lol
RJod wrote:Eight years of Bush because of this guy.
I thought it was more a combination of a stacked Supreme Court, dodgy election machines, the sudden appearance of Police road blocks, people who can't figure out how to mark a ballot, ...



...and oh ya, LOUSY DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES.

There's a reason he got his share of the votes. A considerable number of Americans believe that the Democrats aren't providing a meaningful alternative to the Republicans and they're willing to vote that way. As long as you believe the country will not fall into the abyss just because Bush was elected over Gore and Kerry, then in the long terms it's still better to send the Democratic Party establishment a strong message that they're not doing a good enough job.

Besides, Nader doesn't even get a fair shake at the debates. I'll bet you the Democrats are more guilty in this than the Republicans are. Do you think that's democracy? Perhaps it's the Democrats who are stealing Nader's votes???

Did I mention LOUSY DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES?

EDIT: Here's another response to the claim Nader lost Gore the 2000 election: http://www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pb ... /804090305
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Post by webdanzer »

Image

German parade float.

?!??
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Post by JRod »

Except Smurfy, Gore has gone on to prove that he wasn't Clinton's Quayle. He might have embellished to the point of lying in some cases, like the stuff that he invented the internet.

For the last eight years he involved into something more. Maybe that was due to the loss or maybe it was always there and America was mislead by the campaigns and media.


Nader's numbers show that if Nader wasn't in the race Gore would have won. In addition, there's nothing honorable in a man, where by staying in a race, you cause a worse result then if you were to step aside.
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Post by matthewk »

JRod wrote:Nader's numbers show that if Nader wasn't in the race Gore would have won.
What numbers show this? Did everyone that voted for Nader fill out a form that stated who they would have voted for if Nader wasn't on the ballot? Maybe they wouldn't have even voted at all. He lost. Get over it.
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Post by Inuyasha »

I don't think Gore would have won. Wasn't it a even split? Anyway Gore is just like Bush, Full of Sh1t. Just he serves up a different style of bullsh1t than Bush serves up. They're all full of sh1t when you think of it. But imo, Obama is the least full of sh1t as the others. Hillary and the Clintons are the king and queen of being full of sh1t.

I feel like I'm doing George Carlin here.
Last edited by Inuyasha on Mon May 05, 2008 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Brando70 »

JRod wrote:Except Smurfy, Gore has gone on to prove that he wasn't Clinton's Quayle. He might have embellished to the point of lying in some cases, like the stuff that he invented the internet.

For the last eight years he involved into something more. Maybe that was due to the loss or maybe it was always there and America was mislead by the campaigns and media.


Nader's numbers show that if Nader wasn't in the race Gore would have won. In addition, there's nothing honorable in a man, where by staying in a race, you cause a worse result then if you were to step aside.
While I personally think Nader was an egotistical idiot for saying that there was no difference between Gore and Bush, you can't blame him solely for the election. First, Clinton's penis probably caused more harm to Gore than Nader's balls. If Lewinsky hadn't happened, I am positive Gore would have won. Second, Gore in 2000 was not the same person he is today. He didn't have the ease and comfort of being himself. He had a lot of good ideas but was not a very good candidate.

However, I also think Nader's been a smug son of a b*tch about it in the intervening years. I don't blame him for running, I don't blame people for voting for him, but I think he's just as interested in hogging the political limelight as the people who supposedly protests.
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Post by XXXIV »

Gore would have won had we won his own home state.
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Post by Teal »

Gore is an egomaniacal buffoon desperately trying to cook up some kind of legacy by cooking up the earth... :lol:

Gore has NEVER gotten over the whole election thing, and he would have disappointed as many people as president as Bush has...so why are we bringing up the $%#* 2000 elections again?!?
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Post by Smurfy »

tealboy03 wrote:so why are we bringing up the $%#* 2000 elections again?!?
It was a critical turning point in American history. I'm sure you'd disagree, but I think there are important issues surrounding the results that still need to be addressed (edited - was "debated").

For JRod:

I can easily accept that Gore wasn't Clinton's Quayle. But I wouldn't be surprised that some of what he's doing now is driven by his disappointment over the Clinton years. It might be a matter of ego - it might not be. I think that's irrelevant anyway.

I also suspect that Gore was indeed the true winner of the 2000 election (I can sense Tealboy going :roll: ). If that is true, then there's no point in complaining about Nader ruining it for a guy who actually won. But I'll even accept it as probable that without Nader in the campaign, Gore would have won even with the crime in Florida.

What I cannot accept is the claim that Nader is responsible for eight years of Bush. Perhaps you should say that the people who chose to vote for Nader are to blame for Bush's 2000 election victory? Come to think of it, putting it that way shows more respect for American democracy - The voters were given the choice and exercised it without coercion.

You can go one better and say that if Bush hadn't run, Gore would have been President. I'd bet Gore vs. Nader was a better bet for Gore than Gore vs. Bush!

Let's take what you say one step further and insist that there only be one party running in the election. Otherwise, there would always be somebody to blame for the Democrat not winning (He might be whining, but I'm sure you can point to Nader and say the same thing :oops: )

JRod, I really believe that you can't blame Nader for what happened without slandering the democratic process at the same time.

General comment:
For those who refer to certain people as "egomaniacs" in their criticisms, I say "So what?" Nader has been working hard in service of the public and noble principles for decades. I don't care if he's got a big ego or not. The CEOs of the large corporations that earn huge amounts of wealth for us aren't exactly warm fuzzy gentle pushovers who only want to be loved by everybody (Sorry JackB1, you're not CEO material :lol: ).

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Post by Brando70 »

tealboy03 wrote:Gore has NEVER gotten over the whole election thing, and he would have disappointed as many people as president as Bush has...so why are we bringing up the $%#* 2000 elections again?!?
I think Gore has been over it for some time. He's still not happy with what happened -- how could he be -- but he has accepted that what happened happened. Remember, he's the one who decided to not fight the Supreme Court's decision when a lot of people were asking him to do so.

I also think it's worth bringing up because we may be in for another close one in November. I never liked the way the 2000 election was handled, but I've always accepted the results. That doesn't mean we shouldn't examine what happened and come up with a better mechanism for dealing with that scenario in the future.
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Post by TheHiddenTrack »

I say don't vote, they are all the same anyway! I mean Gore would have violated numerous human rights and killed thousands of people in country A because some people in country B attacked us.

And that's just one (the biggest) thing that would have been different from Bush (there are countless differences). I think that is how Bush won in 2000, everyone assumed that he was just going to tweak a couple of things here and there and everything would be virtually the same, so why not elect him? And while I don't think McCain is going to be another criminal like GW, I don't he's differentiated himself enough from the previous jackass to deserve my vote.
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Post by kevinpars »

Gore has NEVER gotten over the whole election thing, and he would have disappointed as many people as president as Bush has...so why are we bringing up the $%#* 2000 elections again?!?
Gore ain't alone. AMERICA has not gotten over the whole "election thing." The price of gas has more than doubled, the debt has reached unprecedented levels, we are in a recession and based on my last few trips to the grocery store it looks like inflation is in full effect and we have spent billions in a war that has lasted longer than American involvement in WWII. Oh, and water boarding wasn't a national sport when Bill C was in charge.

Sorry, but I don't think even Stephen King has enough imagination to come up with something worse than the last 7+ years.

And it is not just Americans who are disappointed. The Iraqi people are pretty disappointed as well, considering how much our country has f***ed up the rebuilding of their country.

Who knows, maybe someone in the Gore administration might have listened to the intelligence reports about terrorists potentially using planes as weapons.
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Post by Teal »

kevinpars wrote:
Gore has NEVER gotten over the whole election thing, and he would have disappointed as many people as president as Bush has...so why are we bringing up the $%#* 2000 elections again?!?
Gore ain't alone. AMERICA has not gotten over the whole "election thing." The price of gas has more than doubled, the debt has reached unprecedented levels, we are in a recession and based on my last few trips to the grocery store it looks like inflation is in full effect and we have spent billions in a war that has lasted longer than American involvement in WWII. Oh, and water boarding wasn't a national sport when Bill C was in charge.

Sorry, but I don't think even Stephen King has enough imagination to come up with something worse than the last 7+ years.

And it is not just Americans who are disappointed. The Iraqi people are pretty disappointed as well, considering how much our country has f***ed up the rebuilding of their country.

Who knows, maybe someone in the Gore administration might have listened to the intelligence reports about terrorists potentially using planes as weapons.

How many Iraqis do you personally know and talk to? Gore's stupid, politically motivated 'global heresy' thing would and will drive prices through the roof, as well. I'd rather have them going up as a result of pissing off terrorists and their enablers anyday over shooting the price of corn through the roof chasing a pipe dream...
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