OT: 2008 Elections

[Jared]

I have no idea what all of the pastor's beliefs are. Some of what he's said does have legitimacy (e.g. how drug laws unfairly punish the black community, that we did support apartheid regimes), whereas some doesn't (e.g. the whole 9/11 blowback stupidity)...and it's all said provocatively. But saying that Wright is similar to Farrakhan is absurd. And I haven't seen any evidence that his sermons are anti-semitic, black militant, etc. (If there are other sermons that show this, feel free to let me know.) Instead it seems that people who don't like Obama are a) exaggerating the positions of Wright to make him seem like Farrakhan and b) trying to then say that since Obama goes to his church, he must hold Wright's (caricatured) beliefs.

And again, we have no idea how many of his sermons are political, and how many of them are not partisan; and again, the political beliefs of Obama's pastor do not equal Obama's political beliefs. The only way this is a legitimate argument is if you can provide evidence that, for example, Obama believes that 9/11 is blowback for Palestine/Hiroshima/etc. No one can do that though...so instead, insinuation is used (his pastor says X, we'll caricature it as X to the Nth, so Obama must believe X to the Nth as well).

[TheGamer]

I was just informed that there was a bomb threat at the church.

[RobVarak]

I have no idea what all of the pastor's beliefs are. Some of what he's said does have legitimacy (e.g. how drug laws unfairly punish the black community, that we did support apartheid regimes), whereas some doesn't (e.g. the whole 9/11 blowback stupidity)...and it's all said provocatively. But saying that Wright is similar to Farrakhan is absurd.

Absurd? Hardly. From Wikipedia, which for a change is heavily footnoted and sourced Emphasis is mine.

During the course of the 2008 presidential campaign, Wright has also attracted controversy for his association with Louis Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam.[10] Wright travelled to Libya with Farrakhan in the 1980s. In 2007, Wright addressed this by saying "When [Obama’s] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli to visit Colonel Gadaffi with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell."[11] In 2007, Trumpet Magazine (published and edited by Wright's daughter) presented the Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award to Farrakhan, whom it said "truly epitomized greatness."[12] Wright is quoted in the magazine offering praise of Farrakhan "as one of the 20th and 21st century giants of the African American religious experience" and also praised Farrakhan's "integrity and honesty."[13] Obama, on the other hand, has both denounced Farrakhan and rejected Farrakhan's endorsement.[14]

And I haven't seen any evidence that his sermons are anti-semitic, black militant, etc. (If there are other sermons that show this, feel free to let me know.)

Liberation theology is very closely associated with the Panthers and other organizations of similar standing. He's not a virulent anti-semite, but has criticized Zionism as being racist, he's staunchly anti-Israel (even beyond his association with Farrakhan) and again, black liberation theology has a long and close relationship with anti-semitism.

Instead it seems that people who don't like Obama are a) exaggerating the positions of Wright to make him seem like Farrakhan and b) trying to then say that since Obama goes to his church, he must hold Wright's (caricatured) beliefs.

His positions couldn't be more clear, and his association with Farrakhan is totally proper given the chummy relationship betweent the two men. He is like Farrakhan in that he advocates a race-based agenda, promotes an assortment of wacky conspiracy theories and preaches hatred toward the US government and that of Israel. If it walks like a duck and preaches like a duck...

And again, we have no idea how many of his sermons are political, and how many of them are not partisan; and again, the political beliefs of Obama's pastor do not equal Obama's political beliefs. The only way this is a legitimate argument is if you can provide evidence that, for example, Obama believes that 9/11 is blowback for Palestine/Hiroshima/etc. No one can do that though...so instead, insinuation is used (his pastor says X, we'll caricature it as X to the Nth, so Obama must believe X to the Nth as well).

I haven't seen a single pundit suggest that his beliefs are definitely Obama's beliefs, and I am certainly not doing so. However, people are rightfully questioning how someone who may be the next President of the United States would willingly associate himself so intimately with someone who holds beliefs antithetical to those of most Americans.

And referring back to my original posts, which portions of Wright's teachings Obama believes in is a totally secondary consideration. What matters is how his association with this man reflects on the political narrative being spun by Obama's supporters.

If "we are the ones we've been waiting for," exactly who the hell are we?

[wco81]

Trinity is my wife's family's church. I've listened to Rev quite a few times. He's pretty consistent. But to say that Obama lives by Rev's tenents is to me ridiculous. Regardless that he's been there 20 years. What people forget is that Obama's African influence left the family when he was 2 years old. He was raised by his mom and her parents. All white people. It would seem to me that if he was "living" by Rev's "guidelines", it would smack in the face of the most important people in his life outside of his wife and kids.

Not only that, if Obama believed in the Rev's view of this country, why would he run for president or otherwise participate in the system?

But hey, they're looking for reasons to try to disqualify him so let's rule him out and go with the Clinton vs. McCain matchup.

Then the election will be purely about policy issues, right?

[Naples39]

Trinity is my wife's family's church. I've listened to Rev quite a few times. He's pretty consistent. But to say that Obama lives by Rev's tenents is to me ridiculous. Regardless that he's been there 20 years. What people forget is that Obama's African influence left the family when he was 2 years old. He was raised by his mom and her parents. All white people. It would seem to me that if he was "living" by Rev's "guidelines", it would smack in the face of the most important people in his life outside of his wife and kids.

First off, no one is saying that Obama lives by the Rev's tenets. What they are saying is that the Rev says things that are offensive to most Americans, and surely it says something about Obama to go to his church for 20 years and have the man be part of his campaign. I know I wouldn't go back to a place that I found to be offensive, so I don't think it's absurd to conclude that part of Obama does not in fact find those comments offensive. As Rob said, this is particularly more important because such beliefs would be completely antithetical to Obama's campaign.

Also, the choices and acts of Obama the grown man say a lot more to me than the mere fact that he was raised by white people.

[TheHiddenTrack]

I'm glad Obama's pastor isn't running for president.

The political views of his pastor don't reflect his views. So why does this matter?

[wco81]

Because if he really repudiates the guy, they will then say Obama isn't loyal.

And they will dredge this up again if he's the nominee so we'll see this flare up around September or October.

Just as people knew about this pastor months ago.

[XXXIV]

The c*** is desperate now...

[JRod]

The c*** is desperate now...

Enough...that word is probably only a fraction behind n***** in terms of vileness.


Believe it or not it's good for Obama to deal with this now. You do not want this to come out for the first time against the republican machine. See (McCain 2000, Kerry Swift Boats, and Max Cleeland). Having to develop an answer now should he get the nomination will allow him to use that response later. And it will allow him to focus and sharpen it.

I firmly believe that when this conflicts come up in a presidential campaign come up, it's good for the candidate and the public. Not because of the issue -- some of it is stupid and the media feeds into it with their sensationalism. But it allows the public to see how a president responds to adversity.

It's tests like so a true candidates grit. So far Obama has handled these accusations pretty well. And Clinton isn't getting the bump from her attacks like she wants. And the only reason Obama isn't attacking is because he's ahead. When you are ahead you can take the high road -- all of that goes out the window when you are down. Then you have to attack.

[XXXIV]

The c*** is desperate now...

Enough...that word is probably only a fraction behind n***** in terms of vileness.

.

she is what she is...and if you dont like it tell it to stop supportin mcain in case it loses...

I have never seen a more disgusting campaign.

and for all you that dont know what Im talking about here is that link again.

http://www.americablog.com/2008/03/hill ... -more.html

This is a c*** pure and simple....

[TheHiddenTrack]

The c*** is desperate now...

Enough...that word is probably only a fraction behind n***** in terms of vileness.

.

she is what she is...and if you dont like it tell it to stop supportin mcain in case it loses...

I have never seen a more disgusting campaign.

and for all you that dont know what Im talking about here is that link again.

http://www.americablog.com/2008/03/hill ... -more.html

This is a c*** pure and simple....

You can make a point without being a child.

[XXXIV]

Enough...that word is probably only a fraction behind n***** in terms of vileness.

.

she is what she is...and if you dont like it tell it to stop supportin mcain in case it loses...

I have never seen a more disgusting campaign.

and for all you that dont know what Im talking about here is that link again.

http://www.americablog.com/2008/03/hill ... -more.html

This is a c*** pure and simple....

You can make a point without being a child.

I love you too baby,,,but again daddy click the link and see the c*** be the c***.....

[TheHiddenTrack]

I'm well aware of what the Clinton campaign is doing, but you are acting like a child.

[XXXIV]

I'm well aware of what the Clinton campaign is doing, but you are acting like a child.

Your opinion...

Mine is that you are sucking her ass like a little b*tch....

Again a GREAT LINK FOR ALL THOS THAT DONT KNOW...

http://www.americablog.com/2008/03/hill ... -more.html

[Brando70]

Trinity is my wife's family's church. I've listened to Rev quite a few times. He's pretty consistent. But to say that Obama lives by Rev's tenents is to me ridiculous. Regardless that he's been there 20 years. What people forget is that Obama's African influence left the family when he was 2 years old. He was raised by his mom and her parents. All white people. It would seem to me that if he was "living" by Rev's "guidelines", it would smack in the face of the most important people in his life outside of his wife and kids.

First off, no one is saying that Obama lives by the Rev's tenets. What they are saying is that the Rev says things that are offensive to most Americans, and surely it says something about Obama to go to his church for 20 years and have the man be part of his campaign. I know I wouldn't go back to a place that I found to be offensive, so I don't think it's absurd to conclude that part of Obama does not in fact find those comments offensive. As Rob said, this is particularly more important because such beliefs would be completely antithetical to Obama's campaign.

Also, the choices and acts of Obama the grown man say a lot more to me than the mere fact that he was raised by white people.

But again, are the excerpts pulled out by the media representative of what the pastor usually preaches? I don't know. Given that Obama's Audacity of Hope was inspired by what seemed like a positive message, I don't think so. It could be that the guy wasn't always as reactionary is he seems now. Obama has been distancing himself from Wright for some time. I'm sure some of that is politically motivated, but it could be that the two grew apart in their views.

I see why people are bringing it up and I think it's a good question to ask, but again, I don't see anything in Obama's record to say that he's a whitey hatin' militant who thinks we had it coming on 9/11.

[FatPitcher]

I don't think the point is that Obama necessarily subscribes to all the fringe views, but that he is either 1) just another cynical pol who hooked up with this church to bolster his credentials as a black man when it was advantageous early in his career or 2) tolerant of these sort of racist and anti-American views--enough that he stayed in this church--even if he didn't espouse them directly.

In either case, it puts a dent in the image he's tried to build, in the first case because he's supposed to be a change from the old way of doing politics, and in the second because he's supposed to have good judgment (which he dinged Hillary on based on her vote for the Iraq War).

[wco81]

So he's not sufficiently intolerant of "fringe views."

He should only embrace mainstream views, pass some litmus test to censure or further marginalize views which some don't consider congenial. (McCain apparently doesn't have to take the same litmus test)

The people who want him to pass their little test aren't going to be supporting him anyways because his policies will be too liberal for them.

Which is fine, that should be what they cite in the first place.

[JackB1]

The whole Pastor thing has got me in a quandry. I was fully behind Obama to beat Hillary and win the nomination, but now I am not so sure about him.
The statement he made in response to the recent stories about Pastor Wright kind of insults my intelligence.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... hurch.html
Obama claims he didn't hear these inflammatory remarks and he NOW chooses to denounce them. Why would you continue to go the this church is the head guy was spewing hatred, anti-American, prejudice laden remarks?
His claim of "innocence" in all this is really troubling. He's been a member of this church for 20+ years and he knows what this guys all about. He is trying to distance himself only now because it is effecting his campaign. This is way too little too late. The polls say Obama has gone down -8% since this story broke, so it looks like it's having a big impact. Even if Obama doesn't share all those opinions of the pastor, this story will have a very negative impact on him...especially with White's and Jews. Sure, it's '"guilt by association" but he is the one who chose to associate with Wright and continued to do so for 23 years.

[Inuyasha]

The whole Pastor thing has got me in a quandry. I was fully behind Obama to beat Hillary and win the nomination, but now I am not so sure about him.
The statement he made in response to the recent stories about Pastor Wright kind of insults my intelligence.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl ... hurch.html
Obama claims he didn't hear these inflammatory remarks and he NOW chooses to denounce them. Why would you continue to go the this church is the head guy was spewing hatred, anti-American, prejudice laden remarks?
His claim of "innocence" in all this is really troubling. He's been a member of this church for 20+ years and he knows what this guys all about. He is trying to distance himself only now because it is effecting his campaign. This is way too little too late. The polls say Obama has gone down -8% since this story broke, so it looks like it's having a big impact. Even if Obama doesn't share all those opinions of the pastor, this story will have a very negative impact on him...especially with White's and Jews. Sure, it's '"guilt by association" but he is the one who chose to associate with Wright and continued to do so for 23 years.

I think it was like when you meet someone who is crazy, you know they're nuts but don't say anything because all the stuff they're spewing is b.s. Good thing for him is this story will die by summer if he's nominated. All Obama has to do is remind everyone he's also white and that should take care of it.

[JackB1]

I think it was like when you meet someone who is crazy, you know they're nuts but don't say anything because all the stuff they're spewing is b.s. Good thing for him is this story will die by summer if he's nominated. All Obama has to do is remind everyone he's also white and that should take care of it.

Yes, but Obama is always touting his "Good Judgement" he shows over experience. This was not good judgement. He HAD to know this would come out and bite him in the ass. Trying to denounce this guy now and claim innocence is making him look bad. You know the saying "when you are up to your neck in sh*t, stop shoveling".

[Jared]

Jack,

Do you know the totality of Wright's sermons? Do you know how often he preached about the things that are cited in this thread? For example, were those sermons a few out of hundreds or thousands he's made in 20+ years? Or were those sermons typical? (Brando has brought this up a few times in this thread.)

My guess is that they weren't, simply because it's the same few sermons that are quoted again in the media and these threads. Though I would love if someone in the media did the research to view what percentage of his preaching was like that. I could be wrong...but people aren't really addressing that (and it's an important question).

If the majority of his preaching was inflammatory rhetoric, then I understand this viewpoint. But if this was only a small part of his preaching (with most of it being stuff along the lines of the audacity of hope), and if Obama never heard these sermons (as Obama said), then I don't see the issue.

And finally...racist, anti-American, and anti-Semitic are being thrown around wrt Wright, and I haven't seen any evidence of this. He's against some American policy and decisions (Palestine, S Africa), but that doesn't make him anti-American. He's pro-Black, but that doesn't make him racist. And he's had good words for Farrakhan (who has done work to rehabilitate ex-offenders), but that doesn't mean that he agrees with everything Farrakhan says. You can probably play six degrees of Farrakhan (or a similar figure) with anyone...but that doesn't mean that they agree with the crazy views of Farrakhan, Wright, etc.

[JackB1]

Jack,

Do you know the totality of Wright's sermons? Do you know how often he preached about the things that are cited in this thread? For example, were those sermons a few out of hundreds or thousands he's made in 20+ years? Or were those sermons typical? (Brando has brought this up a few times in this thread.)

My guess is that they weren't, simply because it's the same few sermons that are quoted again in the media and these threads. Though I would love if someone in the media did the research to view what percentage of his preaching was like that. I could be wrong...but people aren't really addressing that (and it's an important question).

If the majority of his preaching was inflammatory rhetoric, then I understand this viewpoint. But if this was only a small part of his preaching (with most of it being stuff along the lines of the audacity of hope), and if Obama never heard these sermons (as Obama said), then I don't see the issue.

And finally...racist, anti-American, and anti-Semitic are being thrown around wrt Wright, and I haven't seen any evidence of this. He's against some American policy and decisions (Palestine, S Africa), but that doesn't make him anti-American. He's pro-Black, but that doesn't make him racist. And he's had good words for Farrakhan (who has done work to rehabilitate ex-offenders), but that doesn't mean that he agrees with everything Farrakhan says. You can probably play six degrees of Farrakhan (or a similar figure) with anyone...but that doesn't mean that they agree with the crazy views of Farrakhan, Wright, etc.

Jared.....guys like Wright just don't come out and say things like this "once in a while". It's like these guys who get caught using the "N-word" and claim they never said it before. These are thoughts that are always brewing and in the back of his mind. They just don't come out of nowhere every 6 months or so. I would find it hard to believe that 5% of his sermons are filled with hate and the other 95% are all fine and dandy. Believe me, I want to be on Obama's side, as I think he is a brilliant man and a great, inspirational speaker, but he is not looking good on this one. The general public will not be as rational as you are being on this. Obama had to have seen this coming and should have corrected this situation a while ago.

[JRod]

Jack,

Do you know the totality of Wright's sermons? Do you know how often he preached about the things that are cited in this thread? For example, were those sermons a few out of hundreds or thousands he's made in 20+ years? Or were those sermons typical? (Brando has brought this up a few times in this thread.)

My guess is that they weren't, simply because it's the same few sermons that are quoted again in the media and these threads. Though I would love if someone in the media did the research to view what percentage of his preaching was like that. I could be wrong...but people aren't really addressing that (and it's an important question).

If the majority of his preaching was inflammatory rhetoric, then I understand this viewpoint. But if this was only a small part of his preaching (with most of it being stuff along the lines of the audacity of hope), and if Obama never heard these sermons (as Obama said), then I don't see the issue.

And finally...racist, anti-American, and anti-Semitic are being thrown around wrt Wright, and I haven't seen any evidence of this. He's against some American policy and decisions (Palestine, S Africa), but that doesn't make him anti-American. He's pro-Black, but that doesn't make him racist. And he's had good words for Farrakhan (who has done work to rehabilitate ex-offenders), but that doesn't mean that he agrees with everything Farrakhan says. You can probably play six degrees of Farrakhan (or a similar figure) with anyone...but that doesn't mean that they agree with the crazy views of Farrakhan, Wright, etc.

Sorry but there's a flaw in your logic.

You are assuming that because it appears it was only pulled out of a few speeches that the things he said could be minimized because it was said in every sermon.

By that logic when someone like Pat Robertson says that the hurricane in Louisiana was retaliation from god for it's sins (don't remember what he blamed this time) doesn't that sentiment run through his entire belief, even though it was only said once?

The real question is not what the preacher/minister said, but what impact it has on the candidate. Yes, Clinton is making this a big deal. But here's where it gets Obama in trouble, his campaign main ideal is based off of one of Wright's beliefs, audacity of hope.

That poses a problem because it's not like Obama goes to a church and listens to a crazy pastor. This pastor's message is ingrained into the campaign. It shows that this pastor has had more influence over Obama that he will admit. That doesn't mean Obama believes in everything Wright does and it doesn't mean that Obama believe in Wright's outlandish ideas.

To simplify, if Wright had enough influence for Obama to use the theme of "audacity of hope", then wright's influence is more than just some guy on sunday giving crazy sermons.

I would like Obama give a better answer than he did, personally. I don't think Obama believes in everything Wright believes in. But it does show that Wright has had a considerable amount of influence on Obama.

[Brando70]

The real question is not what the preacher/minister said, but what impact it has on the candidate. Yes, Clinton is making this a big deal. But here's where it gets Obama in trouble, his campaign main ideal is based off of one of Wright's beliefs, audacity of hope.

That poses a problem because it's not like Obama goes to a church and listens to a crazy pastor. This pastor's message is ingrained into the campaign. It shows that this pastor has had more influence over Obama that he will admit. That doesn't mean Obama believes in everything Wright does and it doesn't mean that Obama believe in Wright's outlandish ideas.

To simplify, if Wright had enough influence for Obama to use the theme of "audacity of hope", then wright's influence is more than just some guy on sunday giving crazy sermons.

Here is that sermon that inspired Audacity of Hope:

http://www.preachingtoday.com/sermons/s ... fhope.html

There's absolutely nothing controversial about it. It's a well thought out message of social justice and Christian principles. I can also see why it would inspire someone who was already a community activist when he met Wright.

I did some reading on Wright today, because I wanted to learn more about him and his influence on Obama. Wright's a very popular, influential pastor whose church is quite large and popular (in fact Oprah is or has been a member of the Trinity congregation). He has preached about how important Christianity is for black people, and how important white Christian abolitionists were in fighting slavery. Obama was initially drawn to him because Wright was an outspoken critic of apartheid at a time when the Reagan administration was still dragging it's feet on South African sanctions.

I'm not trying to brush away the criticisms, but I don't think it was the outrageous aspects of Wright's persona that attracted Obama or many of the thousands who attend Trinity. As usual, this story is more complex than the media's OMG OBAMA HEARTS RACIST!!!!

I think he still will get the nomination and I don't think this will derail him for very long.

[Leebo33]

By that logic when someone like Pat Robertson says that the hurricane in Louisiana was retaliation from god for it's sins (don't remember what he blamed this time) doesn't that sentiment run through his entire belief, even though it was only said once?

I agree totally. I don't like Pat Robertson and certainly don't watch much of him, but when I have seen him on TV the majority of what he says is noncontroversial and involves good inspirational messages that could be used by candidates. It's the two or three times a year he opens his mouth and says something stupid that reminds people, as you said, that these things run through his entire belief.