OT: 2008 Elections

[wco81]

And haters don't let go either, do they?

Seriously, it's ridiculous to reduce his presidency to womanizing.

He may not have been great but he didn't just screw women while he was in office.

You're overlooking the greatest gaffe of his presidency: The major escalation of U.S. military involvement in Vietnam. Plus LBJ did a lot more for civil rights than JFK.

On a 1-10 scale of PR, Kennedy was a 10. On a 1-10 scale of results, he was about a 5 or a 6. I give the man credit for the Peace Corps and the Apollo program.

Take care,
PK

That is essentially what I said. He gave great speeches but he's not a Lincoln or FDR, who presided over critical moments in the nation's history -- although, if he really did avert a nuclear exchange, that's pretty serious because another man might have had more of a trigger finger.

His words did move a generation of people at the time and they're still quoted today, about as much as any other president.

For all we know, he didn't believe in anything he said and was cynically manipulating people.

[Inuyasha]

jfk was pulling out of vietnam. he had 1000 troops coming home the day he died. 2 days later lbj escalated .

[wco81]

They're attributing Hilary's win today to her teary moment...

Big gender gap in the vote.

[johnvon314]

They're attributing Hilary's win today to her teary moment...

Big gender gap in the vote.

Could this be another "I feel your pain" moment?

John

[pk500]

jfk was pulling out of vietnam. he had 1000 troops coming home the day he died. 2 days later lbj escalated .

1,000 out of 16,000 that JFK sent there. Plus JFK authorized the use of napalm and defoliants in Vietnam.

He was not a dove when it came to Vietnam.

Take care,
PK

[Zlax45]

Here is some of the stuff Huckabee has done

http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archi ... 54.htm#one

[Inuyasha]

jfk was pulling out of vietnam. he had 1000 troops coming home the day he died. 2 days later lbj escalated .

1,000 out of 16,000 that JFK sent there. Plus JFK authorized the use of napalm and defoliants in Vietnam.

He was not a dove when it came to Vietnam.

Take care,
PK

I disagree. he had to authorize that to make it look like he was strong pro miliary pre-64 elections. JFK hated the military. He said the first thing he would tell his successor was to never believe military men in any matters. And he told his close aides like kenny o'donnell that after the election, he would go down in history as one of the most hated presidents because he was going to pull all the troops out of vietnam. He was no dummy, he took advice from guys like MacArthur and DeGualle and was ready to pull them out in his 2nd term.

But he got killed and LBJ escalated the war pretty much gave the military anything they wanted. But after how Vietnam turned out, JFK was right. You could say his ghost was laughing at LBJ and the Pentagon men during that whole conflict laughing I told you so.

[RobVarak]

jfk was pulling out of vietnam. he had 1000 troops coming home the day he died. 2 days later lbj escalated .

The single most enduring myth in 20th c. American history.

[JRod]

Didn't RFK say that the administration would get to it when that time came. Meaning JFK would decide whether to escalate or not. It seems that JFK was not responsible for the escalation due to his death.

[XXXIV]

I blame Canada

[kevinpars]

Well, Hillary pulled off the comeback. All I can figure is that PK drove up to New Hampshire yesterday to do some last minute campaigning for her

[pk500]

They're attributing Hilary's win today to her teary moment...

Big gender gap in the vote.

I'm very disappointed in the broads in the Granite State, that they actually bought those phony near-tears in the coffee shop.

Hopefully female voters in the Empire State won't be as gullible on Super Tuesday. Maybe Hillary can come to my town and cry in our local bakery. You won't see me extending any Kleenex in sympathy!

Lord, she's such a manufactured fraud. "Found my own voice," my ASS. "Changed my spin because Bill and Terry McAuliffe told me to," is more like it.

This is a very entertaining race, on both sides. Typical bullsh*t, but very unpredictable and fun to follow.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Chris Matthews made a very good point last night on MSNBC: Something must be seriously wrong with the methodology of these pollsters since every one of them had Obama leading by double-digits yesterday morning.

I know turnout was big yesterday in New Hampshire, but how many Obama fence-sitters didn't bother to vote at all because the polls indicated that he was going to win by double-digits?

I'm going to look at subsequent polls on any election-related issue with a huge grain of salt.

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

JFK gave great speeches, real memorable ones. He inspired people with the call to serve in the Peace Corps, to land on the moon and the solidarity with East Berliners.

One thing also that is rare compared to day was that he took the blame for Bay of Pigs, even though it was a plan conceived by the CIA.

He also handled the Cuban Missile Crisis just right. He was counseled to go after the Cubans and Soviets aggressively but he chose a path that gave the Soviets a way to back out and save face.

Not to beat this horse too much more, but JFK authorized the Bay of Pigs. It's true that the plan was mostly conceived by the CIA under Eisenhower, but Kennedy had the authority to stop it (and had a lot of misgivings about it) and he didn't.

As for the Cuban Missile Crisis, while he didn't listen to nutjobs like Curtis LeMay, he got very lucky that Khrushchev sent his vokda-sodden message that he was willing to negotiate before the Politburo sobered him up the next day. Most historians and eyewitnesses like McNamara believe that was what really allowed a settlement of the situation.

With Vietnam, he had no problem letting Diem get killed to install a military government. While Kennedy may have been considering stepping down some US military support, he was probably counting on the situation stabilizing at the time. Given his past actions I think he would have probably recommitted the US once South Vietnam destabilized.

I'm not saying JFK was bad at all. I'm just saying if you strip away the charisma (which is important to leadership), his policies weren't that much different than Eisenhower's.

[wco81]

That I agree with.

Far from the way Oliver Stone would portray him, JFK was more of a Cold Warrior than some people believe.


Here are some theories why Hilary won last night:

http://www.slate.com/id/2181118/nav/tap3/

Also, she swung the gender gap by almost 20 points in her favor. The thinking is that maybe NH women didn't want to dismiss the first viable female presidential candidate so early.

[Sudz]

That I agree with.

Far from the way Oliver Stone would portray him, JFK was more of a Cold Warrior than some people believe.


Here are some theories why Hilary won last night:

http://www.slate.com/id/2181118/nav/tap3/

Also, she swung the gender gap by almost 20 points in her favor. The thinking is that maybe NH women didn't want to dismiss the first viable female presidential candidate so early.

i LOVE the fact that that article had an ad for a cat toilet in it.

[Brando70]

Clinton's victory really isn't that surprising to me. For one thing, we're talking about a relatively small number of voters. It wouldn't require that many warm bodies to make Dennis Kucinich have a comeback. Her third place finish and all the bs about her crying may have energized people who would have normally avoided a primary. She's also a northeastern senator in a northeastern primary.

I realize the polls said one thing, but polls are not exact. Obama was smart enough to even say that, saying he wasn't counting on anything.

We're still talking about the candidate with the highest profile in this race. She's probably got enough campaign power to make it to Super Tuesday no matter what happens.

Same goes for McCain. He's a classic NH primary candidate. He's probably not going to do so well in South Carolina, where they may still think he has an illegitimate black child thanks to ol' Karl Rove.

[matthewk]

It's not Karl Rove, it's MC Rove.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rch=Search

[Slumberland]

"I listened to you and in the process, I found my own voice."

HAW.

[Smurfy]

It wouldn't require that many warm bodies to make Dennis Kucinich have a comeback.

Does that mean my boy Dennis still has a fighting chance?

[Slumberland]

I thought this was interesting... a case for Obama, highlighting several underplayed differences between Obama and Clinton, and coining the phrase "left-libertarianism" that will no doubt rankle some (via Andrew Sullivan's blog):

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/dan ... style.html

[JackB1]

I thought this was interesting... a case for Obama, highlighting several underplayed differences between Obama and Clinton, and coining the phrase "left-libertarianism" that will no doubt rankle some (via Andrew Sullivan's blog):

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/dan ... style.html

Great article! People that complain that Obama isn't offering anything more than "change" aren't looking hard enough. He has stated some very specific ideas during some of these debates and also on his webpage and in his emails to people that register on his page. I think Hilary is the one being the most vague about her plans. She keeps saying "experience" but hasn't explained what she is going to do with all this experience.

[Slumberland]

I still don't know what quite to make of the dem top three with regards to policy, but man have the Clintons pissed me off the last couple weeks. Their whole team (Bill included) is so divisive, and the tone he took about Obama, perhaps the one bright star of the party that Bill serves as a figurehead for (who has also held 'elected' office longer than his wife, mind you) really bothered me. Change may sound like an empty message (at least in the hands of the Clintons) but Obama at least ties it to national unity and getting past some of the bullshit of the last 16 years. If it were a race between Hillary & McCain, that I as a lefty would even THINK of voting for McCain should say something.

[warnerwlf98]

According to CNN, it seems like Bill Richardson will be announcing that he's dropping out of the race this afternoon.

[RobVarak]

I still don't know what quite to make of the dem top three with regards to policy, but man have the Clintons pissed me off the last couple weeks. Their whole team (Bill included) is so divisive, and the tone he took about Obama, perhaps the one bright star of the party that Bill serves as a figurehead for (who has also held 'elected' office longer than his wife, mind you) really bothered me. Change may sound like an empty message (at least in the hands of the Clintons) but Obama at least ties it to national unity and getting past some of the bullshit of the last 16 years. If it were a race between Hillary & McCain, that I as a lefty would even THINK of voting for McCain should say something.

I think it's fair to say that the Clintons may not share your opinion that Obama is the "one bright star" of the party. Not that you're alone in your praise and elevation of the man these days But this is a presidential race, and the nonsensical Reagan 11th commandment is long dead. Following your logic, the other candidates should bow out and allow the Obamassiah to ascend to the head of the party. It's an election, and if pointing out the opponents weaknesses and differences in position constitutes "divisiveness" then we all may as well just draw straws for office.

That said, running on the promise to "unite the country" which likely neither wants nor needs to actually be any more united that in already is, is about as concrete a platform as running to improve mankind, eradicate hatred or promote world peace. It's bumper sticker material, and nothing more.

I'm not saying Obama doesn't have concrete positions on the issues. He does. But that's clearly not the focus of his campaign, and is apparently not even in the Top 10 reasons that his most ardent supporters appear to back him for President.