The Mitchell Report

[wco81]

There has to be more evidence in order for me to put Clemens on the same level as Bonds. With Bonds there was actual physical evidence from the BALCO investigation. All they have on Clemens is one man's word - a drug dealer and accused rapist. If you're a prosecutor going into court and that is all you have to prove your case then you're not going to win.

What physical evidence? The clear cream or whatever?

How is that more conclusive than injections on the butt?

[DivotMaker]

This isnt a court of law.

Dont need the same level of evidence.

No, but I do.

The "court" in this case is the court of public opinion and the minute his name appeared on the Mitchell Report, he was screwed in that particular court REGARDLESS of the FACTS. How would you feel if you were wrongly accused of something you never did and it tarnished your sizable reputation for the rest of YOUR life? If you can put yourself in his shoes, you might have some sort of perspective as to what he is going through. Again, this is assuming he is innocent of these accusations. If there is proof and Pettitte tells Congress that he did what he has been accused of, then he deserves what comes with that and then some.....

[XXXIV]

This isnt a court of law.

Dont need the same level of evidence.

No, but I do.

The "court" in this case is the court of public opinion and the minute his name appeared on the Mitchell Report, he was screwed in that particular court REGARDLESS of the FACTS. How would you feel if you were wrongly accused of something you never did and it tarnished your sizable reputation for the rest of YOUR life? If you can put yourself in his shoes, you might have some sort of perspective as to what he is going through. Again, this is assuming he is innocent of these accusations. If there is proof and Pettitte tells Congress that he did what he has been accused of, then he deserves what comes with that and then some.....

Yes you are presuming his innocence...If I was wrongfully accused ofcourse Id be mad as Hell...BUT...I think hes guilty as sin and dont feel any compassion just disgust at his arrogance...

Your entitled to your view as I am to mine.

I do agree the evidence is not at the same level as it is with Bonds...but..There is evidence and it IS enough for Mitchell.

[DivotMaker]

1. What physical evidence? The clear cream or whatever?

2. How is that more conclusive than injections on the butt?

1. He admitted to taking it even though he claims he did not know they were steroids. Are you buying THAT excuse? A guy, like Clemens whose body and health are worth $millions and he would not know EXACTLY what he is using? Um, okay....

2. HUGE difference. Bonds admitted taking the clear and cream. There is stacks of evidence regarding BALCO and the many other athletes that have fallen from grace because of their association and decisions to use their products. The only "evidence" there is against Clemens is the accusations of a person who is between a rock and a hard place. HUGE differences, IMO.

[DivotMaker]

1. Yes you are presuming his innocence...If I was wrongfully accused ofcourse Id be mad as Hell...BUT...I think hes guilty as sin and dont feel any compassion just disgust at his arrogance...

2. Your entitled to your view as I am to mine.

1. I think I have stated I believe he is innocent several times. However, you are presuming he is guilty based on a report that contains accusations from a fairly shaky witness from the sound of things. You may be right. You may be wrong. I am strictly of the opinion that he is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Based on what has transpired to this point, if there IS evidence AND proof he did what he is accused of, then he better get his passport ready and go into exile ASAP and I will pile on with the rest of you. Hell, I am sitting here defending a damn teasip (Texas graduate) which is freaking blasphemy for an A&M Aggie.

2. I never said you weren't....?

[XXXIV]

1. Yes you are presuming his innocence...If I was wrongfully accused ofcourse Id be mad as Hell...BUT...I think hes guilty as sin and dont feel any compassion just disgust at his arrogance...

2. Your entitled to your view as I am to mine.

1. I think I have stated I believe he is innocent several times. However, you are presuming he is guilty based on a report that contains accusations from a fairly shaky witness from the sound of things. You may be right. You may be wrong. I am strictly of the opinion that he is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Based on what has transpired to this point, if there IS evidence AND proof he did what he is accused of, then he better get his passport ready and go into exile ASAP and I will pile on with the rest of you. Hell, I am sitting here defending a damn teasip (Texas graduate) which is freaking blasphemy for an A&M Aggie.

2. I never said you weren't....?

Aggie scum EDIT: oops meant Longhorn scum

No you never said I wasnt...I was just saying we all have em

[spooky157]

What physical evidence? The clear cream or whatever?

How is that more conclusive than injections on the butt?

Barry Bonds' name was found on a customer list at the BALCO warehouse, along with Giambi, Sheffield, Marion Jones, Bill Romanowski, etc. Then there was Bonds's grand jury testimony where he admitted to having unknowingly used steroids.

That is a hell of a lot more conclusive than one single sketchy witness CLAIMING Clemens took injections on the butt. That's not even evidence...it's more like hearsay.

[XXXIV]

That is a hell of a lot more conclusive than one single sketchy witness CLAIMING Clemens took injections on the butt. That's not even evidence...it's more like hearsay.

Nope thats not the definition of hearsay...hearsay would be if the "sketchy witness" had heard that Clemens had taken injections from someone else... instead of saying he had witnessed them himself.

[jondiehl]

However, you are presuming he is guilty based on a report that contains accusations from a fairly shaky witness from the sound of things.

Pettite made McNamee a creditable source of information by immediately confirming everything that he said about him regarding HGH was true. What motivation would McNamee have to tell the truth to Mitchell regarding Pettite's involvement, then make up a complete lie about Clemens? That's one thing that Roger has no real answer for.

Roger is saying that McNamee is lying regarding his involvement and everything that he told Mitchell. What's his motivation to do so? He's already got immunity from Mitchell and told them anything and everything that they wanted to know. Drug dealer or not, it's not like he had some personal axe to grind with Clemens where he would specifically lie about one player that he named for the report.

Roger on the other hand has all of the motivation in the World to lie. Plus, he know that it's very unlikely that he'll get caught in a lie (ala Palmeiro) because he'll never get tested, never was tested for HGH, there's no smoking gun out there. He probably knows that there won't be any evidence to support the Mitchell report... just McNamee's story.

Roger was likely very careful about his drug use (unlike some of these idiots), getting it from just this one trainer throughout his entire career (while he was with different teams). He doesn't have any loose ends out there and only one person's story to try and discredit. No cancelled checks, no injection buddies on the team shooting each other up in a toiler stall, no suppliers, no supplement labs, etc etc.

[spooky157]

That is a hell of a lot more conclusive than one single sketchy witness CLAIMING Clemens took injections on the butt. That's not even evidence...it's more like hearsay.

Nope thats not the definition of hearsay...hearsay would be if the "sketchy witness" had heard that Clemens had taken injections from someone else... instead of saying he had witnessed them himself.

I stand corrected...

I believe that if you're going to destroy a man's reputation then you should have more than just one guy's statement to go on. Give me some receipts, some kind of paper trail, more people to corroborate one person's account before publicizing something like this.

If Clemens goes to Congress and says what he's been saying all along under oath, then what?

[Inuyasha]

I got to hold Celmens in the same scrutiny as Bonds.

Bonds in his 40s hitting 70 some homeruns didn't make sense.

Clemens in his 40s throwing the ball like he was back in his 20s doesn't add up either.

Where there's smoke.......

[XXXIV]

I believe that if you're going to destroy a man's reputation then you should have more than just one guy's statement to go on. Give me some receipts, some kind of paper trail, more people to corroborate one person's account before publicizing something like this.

If Clemens goes to Congress and says what he's been saying all along under oath, then what?

Perjury?

I see your point and I understand what you are saying...

Im just saying I think he did it...I honestly believe Mitchell wouldnt name anyone without being very confident in who he named...especially a huge name like Clemens. It does baseball no bit of good to out him.

[pk500]

There has to be more evidence in order for me to put Clemens on the same level as Bonds. With Bonds there was actual physical evidence from the BALCO investigation. All they have on Clemens is one man's word - a drug dealer and accused rapist. If you're a prosecutor going into court and that is all you have to prove your case then you're not going to win.

I agree. I put Bonds on a larger scum level than Clemens.

Bonds was indicted for perjury by the Feds. And as the Vick case and other cases have proved, the Feds usually have damn good reason to indict someone.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

If the allegations are UNTRUE, I fully understand how he feels and I know I would be as PO'd if not more so than he is. If the allegations ARE true, then he has set himself up for one HELLUVA fall from grace. I don't believe he is that stupid.

I do, because he thinks he should get a pass because he's Roger Clemens. The ego of these superstars can't be overestimated. People have been telling him that he's the greatest for the last 25 years.

Plus, why didn't Clemens express more anger toward McNamee in the taped phone call? Was that because Rusty Hardin was in the room and advised him not to be antagonistic because it wouldn't play well in the press conference in three days?

Take care,
PK

[JRod]

If Clemens turns out to be truthful or if his trainer is lying. Does that just throw the Mitchell report under the bus?

So there's a scandal regarding the report that was supposed to get to the heart of the original scandal. Didn't see that coming.

[Brando70]

I got to hold Celmens in the same scrutiny as Bonds.

Bonds in his 40s hitting 70 some homeruns didn't make sense.

Clemens in his 40s throwing the ball like he was back in his 20s doesn't add up either.

Where there's smoke.......

That's the big part of it. There are physical and performance signs of Clemens taking substances, in addition to this testimony. That wouldn't be enough to convict Clemens in a trial, but it certainly makes it understandable why people suspect him.

The other thing is, while I can understand the angry reaction, he has to understand that there's reasonable suspicion here. There's his performance, the testimony, another high-profile teammate who admitted to using HGH, and a professional baseball league that turned a blind eye to performance enhancers, creating a climate where people thought they could get away with it. He may very well be innocent, but if he is, he's not handling his public reaction very well.

[matthewk]

If Clemens goes to Congress and says what he's been saying all along under oath, then what?

Then I expect we'll be seeing him on trial at some point after that for lying under oath.

One thing is for sure, one of these guys is lying. I just find it harder to believe the trainer would lie about Clemens after some of his testimony has already been confirmed by Pettite. Why would he lie about Clemens and risk going to jail for it?

[spooky157]

If Clemens goes to Congress and says what he's been saying all along under oath, then what?

Then I expect we'll be seeing him on trial at some point after that for lying under oath.

One thing is for sure, one of these guys is lying. I just find it harder to believe the trainer would lie about Clemens after some of his testimony has already been confirmed by Pettite. Why would he lie about Clemens and risk going to jail for it?

I'm not trying to be naive. I think Clemens is probably guilty. I thought he was using PED's before the Mitchell Report came out. If they do decide to go after Clemens for perjury then at the very least we'll finally have some real evidence of Clemens' guilt other than just one man's word. 2 guys, both under oath, with completely different stories. What makes one story any more credible than the other in the eyes of the law?

I'm no legal expert but I think the defamation suit against McNamee is a ploy to allow Clemens not to answer specific questions in front of Congress.

[DivotMaker]

Then I expect we'll be seeing him on trial at some point after that for lying under oath.

One thing is for sure, one of these guys is lying. I just find it harder to believe the trainer would lie about Clemens after some of his testimony has already been confirmed by Pettite. Why would he lie about Clemens and risk going to jail for it?

I don't know what to think about McNamee as he is beginning to look worse by the day as a "witness" for the Mitchell Report....

http://www6.comcast.net/sports/articles ... s-Lawsuit/

[Leebo33]

Another thing that implicates Clemens' guilt to me is how he has, in his lawyer-issued statements and in the "60 Minutes" interview, tried to use his "service to baseball" and his legendary accomplishments as a defense.

I'm sick of hearing Clemens say, paraphrasing, "You'd think after all my years in the game and all I've accomplished in the game that people would cut me some slack."

Yeah, it's ridiculous. I finally got to view the 60 Minutes interview tonight. To me the dead giveaway was when they asked him what should be done to people caught (a common question used by investigators questioning suspects because guilty people rarely say what the appropriate penalty would be or what an innocent person would say because they wouldn't want that penalty imposed on them) using PEDs. It was a total bullsh*t answer about the penalty being "self-imposed." I believe he had a similar evasive answer in the press conference.

Can you imagine if you were a MLB future hall-of-famer who didn't cheat and was asked what should be done to people who did...and you are being *wrongly* accused which is ruining the reputation you spent decades to build? I mean, these a-holes are ruining the game you love and bringing your name down with it. You would want the rat bastards who cheat and taint the record book with your name all over it to be punished to the fullest extent of the law/MLB and to have their name stricken from the record books. I think there's enough evidence of guys cheating and hitting 4-700 homeruns or excelling in other sports and making millions that would lead any reasonable person to believe that the chances of a "self-imposed" penalty (career ending injuries) are far less than the rewards (a longer or better career).

[kevinpars]

From Jayson Stark's blog of the congressional hearings today:

Mitchell reminded Norton that McNamee had made an agreement with federal prosecutors that made it clear that if he lied, he faced further charges -- and that before each of his three interviews with the Mitchell investigators, he was informed by federal agents that any false statements could lead to criminal charges.

"Thus," Mitchell said, "Mr. McNamee had overwhelming incentive to tell the truth."

Mitchell then told a story we hadn't heard before. He said that just before his report was finalized, his staff went back to McNamee one last time and read him a verbatim account of how his testimony was characterized.

McNamee was then asked whether he was "comfortable" with that account. And, according to Mitchell, McNamee said he was, except for "a couple of minor suggestions." So it's noteworthy that McNamee was given a chance to back off before the slop hit the fan -- and didn't.

Rep. Waxman then jumped onboard. He brought up Clemens' repeated public denials of these charges, then asked Mitchell if, despite those denials, he was still comfortable with McNamee's account of Clemens' drug use.

"I believe the statements provided to us were truthful," Mitchell replied, succinctly.

So if this was the first public litmus test of whether elected officials and baseball officials believe Clemens' attempt to deflect these charges, the clear verdict is:

They don't. Emphatically.

Some funny stuff as well, such as a reference by Rep. Christopher Shays to the "1919 Black Hawks scandal"

[webdanzer]

McNamee supposedly does have physical evidence:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... ce_li.html

McNamee's attorneys would not discuss the details of the evidence, but according to a source close to the former Yankee strength and conditioning coach, McNamee gave the Justice Department's BALCO investigators vials with traces of steroids and growth hormone, as well as blood-stained syringes and gauze pads that may contain the Rocket's DNA.

Justice Department officials have sent the evidence to a lab for testing, and if the materials do indeed contain traces of drugs and blood, prosecutors may attempt to get a court order for a DNA sample from Clemens.

[kevinpars]

Well, if Clemens said he was innocent under oath today, I guess the question is what this evidence is worth. I can't see it being worth anything in a courtroom considering what defense attorneys can do with much more solid trails of evidence. This thing just gets stranger and stranger.

Between this and Spygate, it makes me glad it is now time for hockey and basketball seasons to take over for a few months.

[matthewk]

Between this and Spygate, it makes me glad it is now time for hockey and basketball seasons to take over for a few months.

Because now we can concentrate on figuring out which NBA games are being fixed by the refs.

[Sudz]

so sick of hearing about spygate and roids...