The Mitchell Report

[davet010]

The NFL doesn't have a problem with steroids and other performance enhancing drugs ?

Yeah, sure. That must be why they keep banning players for using PEDs then. A simple comparison of the size, weight and speed of the average NFL squad of 2007 compared to one of, say, 1987 would suggest that either human evolution has gone into overdrive or something odd is going on, and it ain't all better nutrition and weight training.

Not sure that we should lump in alcohol or weed with this - the only sport that booze ever made people better at is darts (I play better at the 2-5 pints plateau than sober), and the only thing a sly drag could make you better at is competitive eating.

[greggsand]

Sadly, I think baseball doesn't want to fix this because they know if they do it could possibly show that steroids and HGH are so out of control that it could destroy baseball. Why else not adopt a strict policy like the NFL's?

NOTHING can destroy baseball. That should be obvious by now. Hell, baseball has had strikes, work stoppages, uppers, downers, roids, violence, racism, etc & they had their best financial year EVER under the "shadow of steroids".

Baseball has miles to "fall" before it gets moved to Versus & the 2nd to last page of the sports section(next to horse racing). This ain't hockey or soccer (in America's "eye"). ho ho...

Although, there are valuable lessons to be learned by hockey's disaster. don't take anything for granted....

[F308GTB]

This will be an interesting presentation - http://www.thsbca.com/index.php?action=convention

Saturday Jan 12
11:00-11:45 Roger "The Rocket" Clemons – My Vigorous Workout, How I Played So Long

[Leebo33]

A simple comparison of the size, weight and speed of the average NFL squad of 2007 compared to one of, say, 1987 would suggest that either human evolution has gone into overdrive or something odd is going on, and it ain't all better nutrition and weight training.

Seriously. There are linebackers in the NFL today as fast as Hall of Fame receivers that weigh more than Anthony Munoz. If anything, I find it impossible to believe that the problem isn't more widespread in the NFL. We just ignore it because football players are *supposed* to be larger-than-life warriors that take a pounding for our viewing pleasure.

It's a problem in high school football. I can't imagine it isn't an issue in the NFL with millions at stake and short careers.

[pk500]

The point is that we all love the game of baseball

You've clearly misjudged me ...

nobody wants to see it destroyed, so let's just deal with what we have, put a better system in place and be done with it. The NFL even with its "stricter policies and testing" continues to have people testing positive (Shawn Merriman etc...) so its not like they are the model organization here. The olympics has Marion Jones and that mess to show as proof of how wonderful they are. Guys and gals will always out smart the system so just catch the ones you can, make it as hard as you can to cheat and move on.

Your view is the majority: Let's just sweep this under the carpet, slap a few wrists and move on. "The game, oh, the exalted game" is bigger than this, and all that other horsesh*t.

This pompous, inflated attitude toward baseball's worth and its place in American society is EXACTLY why Bud Selig, Don Fehr and the players knew they could get away with the steroid era. And it's the exact same reason why people will finish gasping about this report right before NFL kickoff Sunday -- the true national pastime for the last 30 years -- and forget about it until the next round of Hall of Fame balloting.

I'm just sick and tired of baseball being held to a lower standard of outrage and action because it's "the grand old game." A sport is a sport, and if it's dirty, those who participated need to be held accountable, and the sport needs to be cleaned up.

If anything, a sport with the inexplicable popularity of baseball should work even harder to punish offenders and clean up because there are so many people -- especially young kids -- who enjoy the game and admire its players.

Take care,
PK

[matthewk]

And all the MLB needs to do is copy the NFL drug policy exactly and that would spell the end of the steroids era.

So the NFL has some magical test for HGH that no one else knows about?

[Brando70]

I don't think steroids are necessarily a huge problem in the NFL any more. The league tests, and you see guys get caught every season. I'm sure there's a lot of effort to cheat the system, but the point is the league is trying to keep this stuff out of the game.

HGH would be the NFL's biggest culprit now. The league doesn't test for it even though it bans it. I know Goodell has disputed the international doping officials that there's a reliable test for HGH, but I think you'll see the league add some sort of test in the next couple of seasons. It's not like Goodell shies away from disciplining players.

However, I do think you can engineer bigger, faster athletes over time with non-illegal means. Legal supplements, diets, and weight regimens can add a lot of muscle to someone who already has a big frame. There's a lot more (legal) science in training than there was back in the 60s-70s.

[davet010]

The NFL's no-fail test for HGH ?

Yeah - it's called the NFL Combine and Draft, where failure to meet required 'norms' of size/speed and reps drops you down the list.

[pk500]

Although, there are valuable lessons to be learned by hockey's disaster. don't take anything for granted....

Hockey's disaster in America, yes.

But hockey is even more bulletproof in Canada than baseball is in America. Hockey is the only national game that matters in Canada, much like soccer in England. It's an institution, a religion, a very part of the fabric of the nation.

Hockey never will die in Canada. Attendances and TV ratings soared in Canadian cities the year after the lockout, the only time an entire major North American sports season was lost to labor strife.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

However, I do think you can engineer bigger, faster athletes over time with non-illegal means. Legal supplements, diets, and weight regimens can add a lot of muscle to someone who already has a big frame. There's a lot more (legal) science in training than there was back in the 60s-70s.

I'm a lot bigger than I was in the 80s, in all of the wrong areas, of course.

It's not HGH, either. It's Labatt's Blue and Johnnie Walker Red, my version of "The Cream" and "The Clear."

Take care,
PK

[matthewk]

The point is that we all love the game of baseball

You've clearly misjudged me ...

No offense PK, but if you don't care about the game of baseball, why keep sh&*ting on it in this thread? Those of us who dearly love the game want to see things fixed. There is no easy answer to what has happened (and is surely still going on). Sure, to you it's easy to trash everyone related to the game of baseball, because you don't give 2 sh*ts if it lives or dies. To the rest of us, we want some kind of closure to this, and then to move on to playing (clean) ball.

I don't think we're trying to ignore this like it never happened. How can you say it's been held to a lower standard of outrage? Do you not see how hated Bonds is for breaking Hank's HR record? But, the mightly NFL and its fans have such high standards. So much so that Merriman was voted to the Pro Bowl the same year has was suspended for 'roids.

[Brando70]

However, I do think you can engineer bigger, faster athletes over time with non-illegal means. Legal supplements, diets, and weight regimens can add a lot of muscle to someone who already has a big frame. There's a lot more (legal) science in training than there was back in the 60s-70s.

I'm a lot bigger than I was in the 80s, in all of the wrong areas, of course.

It's not HGH, either. It's Labatt's Blue and Johnnie Walker Red, my version of "The Cream" and "The Clear."

Take care,
PK

No kidding, if I was as big in high school as I am now, I could have had a football career...with the right supplements

[Brando70]

To the rest of us, we want some kind of closure to this, and then to move on to playing (clean) ball.

That's what I want out of it. The amount of question marks hanging over the heads of these players is worse than any suspension they could get now. If Clemens fails to make the HoF, that's probably the worst punishment anyone could give him. I would rather see the Mitchell Report force baseball to take strong action so that we feel like there's a clean game being played. I already felt the game started in that direction last season when power numbers were down so much.

The fans know what happened. There's no brushing anything under the rug, there's just a realization that there's not much you can do about it. Trying to go back and retroactively punish people isn't going to solve anything. Let their reputations be tarnished, enact a drug policy with some teeth, and clean up the game from this point forward.

[pk500]

No offense PK, but if you don't care about the game of baseball, why keep sh&*ting on it in this thread?

Because I DESPISE the idea of performance-enhancing drugs in any sport, even those I don't like. You never see me discussing issues like the best left-handed pitcher or how many RBI's Ryan Howard will have, but when it comes to drugs, I have opinions -- in any sport.

Those of us who dearly love the game want to see things fixed. There is no easy answer to what has happened (and is surely still going on). Sure, to you it's easy to trash everyone related to the game of baseball, because you don't give 2 sh*ts if it lives or dies. To the rest of us, we want some kind of closure to this, and then to move on to playing (clean) ball.

I don't want baseball to die. It wouldn't bother me, but it would bother a lot of people, including my father. So I want it to live because it brings pleasure to others.

Baseball is like a dog to me. I hate both, but I never would want either to be severely damaged because both bring pleasure to others, including those I know and love. Just keep both the hell away from me.

I don't think we're trying to ignore this like it never happened. How can you say it's been held to a lower standard of outrage? Do you not see how hated Bonds is for breaking Hank's HR record?

Bonds was reviled long before he approached Ruth and Aaron. He didn't become a prick the first time a needle pricked his ass.

But, the mightly NFL and its fans have such high standards. So much so that Merriman was voted to the Pro Bowl the same year has was suspended for 'roids.

And that's wrong, too. But at least the NFL and Goodell have some teeth in their drug and player behavior policies. MLB's resembles the mouth of a guy who has lived in a wooden shack without running water in rural Idaho for the last 50 years.

I'm just sick of hearing "there's no easy answers" from the baseball apologists. There are no easy answers to the drug problems in ANY sport, but at least sports like pro football, cycling and track are being proactive instead of whining and bleating about how difficult it is.

I'm talking much more about prevention than punishment here, too. I agree with Brando: The best punishment for that prick Clemens is no Hall of Fame. His insatiable ego -- why the hell do you think he continues to make protracted comebacks year after year? -- will be pricked like a balloon punctured by hypodermic needle if he doesn't get his day in Cooperstown.

Take care,
PK

[DivotMaker]

However, I do think you can engineer bigger, faster athletes over time with non-illegal means. Legal supplements, diets, and weight regimens can add a lot of muscle to someone who already has a big frame. There's a lot more (legal) science in training than there was back in the 60s-70s.

Well, yes and no. To see the size of the NFL players today compared to 1981 when I played, there is a HUGE (no pun intended) difference in size and muscle mass of the players, especially the linemen. Today, they are substantially larger than 26 years ago and while nutritional information and advances have occurred, the sizes and strength of today's players makes it very hard for me to buy the argument that they can do it naturally. If their metabolism and physiology are predisposed to such muscle and bone mass, I can buy that. But many of the players you see today did not get where they are 100% naturally. I was in Track & Field (discus and shotput) during the 70's through 1981 and the a large number of my competitors openly admitted to using steroids to get where they were. I have seen a few of them since those days and they look nothing like what they did while they were training and on the "juice". I am glad that I never took steroids even though I was very tempted to. As far as I am concerned, steroids are here to stay in athletics as long as humans are trying to set world records and $millions are at stake. They will continue to use them as long as they can stay one or two steps ahead of the organizations that test for them. Until they perfect a way to determine if an athlete has EVER taken them (and they are working on this), steroids will be a part of sports, unfortunately.

[Naples39]

I've always believed that the reason you see so many more scandals in things like cycling and the Olympics is because the international authorities like the WADA are much more serious about catching people. I don't believe for a second that there is less steroid use in American sports as evidenced by fewer scandals.

JRod, you cite Marion Jones winning her medals in 2000, and act as if under the NFL program she would've been caught at the time. A laughable notion. Also, if Game of Shadows has any truth to it, US Olympic authorities do all they can to protect their athletes from testing positive as well.

I think the NFL has found a workable medium for them, where they have a clear system that prevents obvious cheaters, but anyone who has any motivation to use roids will do so easily. Also, compare the punishments; in the NFL you miss 4 games for a positive test, in the olympics you miss 2 years. A second positive test in the Olympics and you are banned for life.

As far as I am concerned, steroids are here to stay in athletics as long as humans are trying to set world records and $millions are at stake. They will continue to use them as long as they can stay one or two steps ahead of the organizations that test for them. Until they perfect a way to determine if an athlete has EVER taken them (and they are working on this), steroids will be a part of sports, unfortunately.

Totally agree. All you can ask for is leagues and testing authorities to do everything they can to keep up with the cheaters. A standard no American league meets.

[kevinpars]

I always thought one of the most hypocritical things I have seen in baseball was Keith Hernandez apologizing to the NY fans for his drug use. He should have apologized to the fans of St Louis cause they were the ones he screwed over.

At least he went on to become a positive role model about the dangers of drugs for the young Met players like Strawberry, Gooden and Dykstra.

[greggsand]

Just found out that Eddie Murray is going to be on the radio show tomorrow. Can't wait to talk about this with him!

ps-PK, Luc Robitaille as well. Got any good questions for him?

gregg

[pk500]

Just found out that Eddie Murray is going to be on the radio show tomorrow. Can't wait to talk about this with him!

ps-PK, Luc Robitaille as well. Got any good questions for him?

gregg

Gregg:

Plenty of questions for one of the greatest left wingers in NHL history:

1. Who was his idol growing up?

2. We all know Gretzky was the best center he ever played with. But who was the best right wing?

3. The buzz around the league is that scoring is down from the first year after the lockout. What would he do to increase scoring? Change goalie equipment? Enlarge the nets?

4. Does Luc think the removal of the instigator penalty would allow enforcers to do their job and create more space for skilled players like he was during his career?

5. What is the single biggest change to the game that he saw as his 19-year career evolved?

6. What does Luc think of composite sticks? Are they hurting the accuracy of shooters, creating the potential for eye and facial injuries because of the increased speed and hurting the flow of the game because they supposedly lack feel for receiving passes?

7. Who is the greatest player in the game today?

8. What young player besides Crosby excites you the most in the game today, and what left wing in today's game reminds you most of yourself?

9. How has your role with the USHL and now the Kings' front office changed your perspective of the game compared to when you were a player?

10. Can the NHL make headway with U.S. fans with the Versus TV deal? Is a return to ESPN a must?

Take care,
PK

[macsomjrr]

Just found out that Eddie Murray is going to be on the radio show tomorrow. Can't wait to talk about this with him!

ps-PK, Luc Robitaille as well. Got any good questions for him?

gregg

Gregg:

Plenty of questions for one of the greatest left wingers in NHL history:

1. Who was his idol growing up?

2. We all know Gretzky was the best center he ever played with. But who was the best right wing?

3. The buzz around the league is that scoring is down from the first year after the lockout. What would he do to increase scoring? Change goalie equipment? Enlarge the nets?

4. Does Luc think the removal of the instigator penalty would allow enforcers to do their job and create more space for skilled players like he was during his career?

5. What is the single biggest change to the game that he saw as his 19-year career evolved?

6. What does Luc think of composite sticks? Are they hurting the accuracy of shooters, creating the potential for eye and facial injuries because of the increased speed and hurting the flow of the game because they supposedly lack feel for receiving passes?

7. Who is the greatest player in the game today?

8. What young player besides Crosby excites you the most in the game today, and what left wing in today's game reminds you most of yourself?

9. How has your role with the USHL and now the Kings' front office changed your perspective of the game compared to when you were a player?

10. Can the NHL make headway with U.S. fans with the Versus TV deal? Is a return to ESPN a must?

Take care,
PK

...and you couldn't have PM'ed this instead of putting it in the Mitchell Report thread? Just giving you a hard time;)

This pompous, inflated attitude toward baseball's worth and its place in American society is EXACTLY why Bud Selig, Don Fehr and the players knew they could get away with the steroid era. And it's the exact same reason why people will finish gasping about this report right before NFL kickoff Sunday -- the true national pastime for the last 30 years -- and forget about it until the next round of Hall of Fame balloting. PK

So what? I'm so bad because I love baseball and think that it can overcome this whole steroid issue and ultimately become a clean game??? I don't care what happened last year, the year before and the year before that as it doesn't mean squat when it comes to this upcoming season. All we need to do is improve our testing abilities to try and catch those who cheat (which we are doing), create a system or a culture within baseball that frowns on PEDs (which we are doing) and then move the hell on with it (which we are desperately trying to do). Life is too short to freak out about what happened yesterday. Learn from it, make the necessary changes and be done with it.

Next you're gonna tell me we should all start watching hockey cause its so clean.

[pk500]

...and you couldn't have PM'ed this instead of putting it in the Mitchell Report thread? Just giving you a hard time;)

I did. Covered all bases.

So what? I'm so bad because I love baseball and think that it can overcome this whole steroid issue and ultimately become a clean game??? I don't care what happened last year, the year before and the year before that as it doesn't mean squat when it comes to this upcoming season. All we need to do is improve our testing abilities to try and catch those who cheat (which we are doing), create a system or a culture within baseball that frowns on PEDs (which we are doing) and then move the hell on with it (which we are desperately trying to do). Life is too short to freak out about what happened yesterday. Learn from it, make the necessary changes and be done with it.

Not at all. But I'm not convinced that baseball really is moving toward a tough drug policy. The Mitchell Report won't help, either.

Selig and Fehr probably are hoping just to ride the waves of fan furor from this report, which will ebb quickly in this 24/7 news cycle that has the attention span of a 2-year-old toddler, and then proceed with business as usual: Talk tough and do little.

If anything, the Mitchell Report gives baseball a nice, public denouement to the Steroids Era without really taking much tough action. It's almost as if Selig is saying out of one side of his mouth, "Oh, this is terrible, and I will take action," while he's saying out of the other: "Good work, George. We've been put in the pillory in the town square for a weekend, pelted with rocks and garbage, with no ill effect on the bottom line. Thank God this whole affair is over. Normal business is resumed."

Take care,
PK

[XXXIV]

The steroid era is now the HGH era.

It will live forever.

Bud can blow me.

[wco81]

Clemens' lawyer has denied it.

What is satisfying is among the named are hypocrites.

Randy Velarde, according to local reporters here, stood in the A's clubhouse with his shirt off "looking like Mr. Olympia" and denounced steroids and how anti-steroids he was.

And a couple of years ago, Giants went to Yankee stadium and Clemens was pitching and they were saying how he resented Bonds because of the drugs and that it should be an interesting confrontation.

Indeed.

[macsomjrr]

Whatever happens I'll still be watching come opening day regardless. Every professional athletic competition on the planet has cheaters so why should all this attention focused on baseball change my opinion about this great sport? I mean the freakin congress got involved with this game for crying out loud. How is that not trying to clean up the sport? Next comment is gonna be "well why did congress have to get involved in the first place?" Because baseball had failed and let the problem get to big. They needed help. They got that help and now a better system is getting put into place.

Play ball!

Now let's start talking about how great the Tigers are going to be this year.

[Zlax45]

Whatever happens I'll still be watching come opening day regardless. Every professional athletic competition on the planet has cheaters so why should all this attention focused on baseball change my opinion about this great sport? I mean the freakin congress got involved with this game for crying out loud. How is that not trying to clean up the sport? Next comment is gonna be "well why did congress have to get involved in the first place?" Because baseball had failed and let the problem get to big. They needed help. They got that help and now a better system is getting put into place.

Play ball!

Now let's start talking about how great the Tigers are going to be this year.

Sorry but American sports in general are WAY behind the international standards. Which is sad...We should have WADA standards in all of our sports.