OT: This is really getting crazy.

[Teal]

Jared:

Where, oh where, might we have gotten the idea that stealing is wrong, that lying under oath is wrong, that murder is wrong, that adultery is wrong?

It didn't just fly in from thin air, and we surely aren't smart enough to have concocted it on our own.

Teal/Others - Took some time to read this thread and being the fence-sitter that I usually am, I can appreciate everyone's viewpoint on the various issues being discussed, but I feel compelled to comment on Teal's argument that humans aren't smart enough to come up with these basic tenants of how to live a "good" existence.

I disagree with this completely. I feel that these arguments are used by organized religions to make us believe we'd all be "lost" without them. Today and since the beginning, organized religion has been about power and control, in my opinion.

Consider it my take on God and religion, but I believe that we are all created with an innate understanding of right and wrong, and good and evil. (Of course there are some people born with mental issues that can upset this balance) I don't need a book, a person, or a fear of a divine power to make me understand these things.

Of course, I'm also a raging hypocrite. My children went to a private Lutheran school for a number of years, and my wife has asked if we could go to a live Nativity this Christmas.

My stance has nothing to do with organized religion, as organized religion makes me want to puke. But we got our sense of morality, decency, fair play, and justice from SOMEWHERE...it didn't just 'happen'.

Create a society without laws and see where that 'innate' understanding goes. What is innate is our ability to break them. For a proper understanding of our utter depravity, check out 'Lord of the Flies', or even the latest edition of Survivor. Left to our own devices, we're a pretty sorry lot.

[Leadfoot5]

Teal - interesting points, definitely food for thought. I tend to gravitate to reality shows like "Extreme Home Makeover" rather than Survivor though. Shows the good in people...

For what it's worth, I love these kind of debates, I find that I always see a perspective that I hadn't thought about. The problem is that it's very hard to have discussions about these topics without it devolving.... Er.. I'll stop there before I start supporting your point!

[pk500]

Teal:

Organized religion makes you want to puke? So you don't attend or preside over services with other like-minded followers?

Take care,
PK

[Teal]

Teal:

Organized religion makes you want to puke? So you don't attend or preside over services with other like-minded followers?

Take care,
PK

Yeah, I'm getting that way. See, I spent the better part of 20 years in the 'ministr-EH', and have seen the wizard behind the veil, and have found it to be a man.

But I'm convinced of God, and Christ, and don't see much in the way of authenticity in the church these days. You must also remember that I'm located in the Buckle of the Bible Belt...a hotbed of nuttiness that I don't have to tell you about, I'm sure!

This is way off topic, but for the sake of understanding, I'll continue. In reading about Christ, I see a man who is, among other things, disgusted with a religion, devoted to his Father, becoming a man-centered deal and thus totally missing the point. Ironically, Jesus does battle with the very religion that is supposed to be ABOUT Him in the first place, but in the 430 years between prophets, has TOTALLY missed the point, and simply become about ritual, sacrifice, and rules. He opposed it then...

...and I think he opposes it now. It's all about authenticity, not about the rituals, or the cadences, or the rites, or the...well, you get my drift.

I'm kind of on the outside nowadays, looking in and scratching my head over what I see. I see religion...and it bears very little if any resemblance to the Christ who founded it, the same way Christ found the religion of his Father back in His days as a human being.

Now I do attend a 'church service' as it were, but it's so far removed from Catholicism, or traditional Protestantism, even, that it's nearly unrecognizable as a religious entity. It still bears some trappings that I don't like, but I can live with it for now.

So that's the long version of my explanation. Sorry for the long tooth...

[pk500]

Interesting.

I'd be spiritually lost without the rock of Sunday Mass. I enjoy my weekly time with the rest of the Catholic faith community. Good people.

Killer coffee hour, with donuts, once per month in the parish gym, too.

Take care,
PK

[ProvoAnC]

nice post Teal.

I don't go to church to be with God....I can do that anytime and I honestly don't think that God gives a rat's ass if I go or not. I do, however, go to be with people that are like-minded. I have also started thinking a lot like Teal though. Our old church (where we were married) was a community...it was great. s***, sometimes we'd just go and sit in the pews during the week. The pastor was down to earth-someone you could connect with. Our church here blows. Its so robotic...I get more pissed just going there and that is the total opposite of what I want.

[pk500]

nice post Teal.

I don't go to church to be with God....I can do that anytime and I honestly don't think that God gives a rat's ass if I go or not. I do, however, go to be with people that are like-minded. I have also started thinking a lot like Teal though. Our old church (where we were married) was a community...it was great. s***, sometimes we'd just go and sit in the pews during the week. The pastor was down to earth-someone you could connect with. Our church here blows. Its so robotic...I get more pissed just going there and that is the total opposite of what I want.

Fooking pagan ...



Take care,
PK

[Teal]

nice post Teal.

I don't go to church to be with God....I can do that anytime and I honestly don't think that God gives a rat's ass if I go or not. I do, however, go to be with people that are like-minded. I have also started thinking a lot like Teal though. Our old church (where we were married) was a community...it was great. s***, sometimes we'd just go and sit in the pews during the week. The pastor was down to earth-someone you could connect with. Our church here blows. Its so robotic...I get more pissed just going there and that is the total opposite of what I want.

Fooking pagan ...



Take care,
PK

Fraggin' Pope-alyte...

[Jackdog]

Yeah, I'm getting that way. See, I spent the better part of 20 years in the 'ministr-EH', and have seen the wizard behind the veil, and have found it to be a man.

But I'm convinced of God, and Christ, and don't see much in the way of authenticity in the church these days. You must also remember that I'm located in the Buckle of the Bible Belt...a hotbed of nuttiness that I don't have to tell you about, I'm sure!

This is way off topic, but for the sake of understanding, I'll continue. In reading about Christ, I see a man who is, among other things, disgusted with a religion, devoted to his Father, becoming a man-centered deal and thus totally missing the point. Ironically, Jesus does battle with the very religion that is supposed to be ABOUT Him in the first place, but in the 430 years between prophets, has TOTALLY missed the point, and simply become about ritual, sacrifice, and rules. He opposed it then...

...and I think he opposes it now. It's all about authenticity, not about the rituals, or the cadences, or the rites, or the...well, you get my drift.

I'm kind of on the outside nowadays, looking in and scratching my head over what I see. I see religion...and it bears very little if any resemblance to the Christ who founded it, the same way Christ found the religion of his Father back in His days as a human being.

Now I do attend a 'church service' as it were, but it's so far removed from Catholicism, or traditional Protestantism, even, that it's nearly unrecognizable as a religious entity. It still bears some trappings that I don't like, but I can live with it for now.

So that's the long version of my explanation. Sorry for the long tooth...

Thanks for posting what I have felt for years.

[pk500]

Fraggin' Pope-alyte...

Proud to be ...

Take care,
PK

[Brando70]

Can't we settle these things like civilized people, in some type of deathmatch or capture-the-flag setting?

[Teal]

Can't we settle these things like civilized people, in some type of deathmatch or capture-the-flag setting?

Wouldn't domination be a better setting???