FIFA 08 (360) Impressions

[Cloud]

UPDATE:
I do in fact hate this game.

Grrrrrrr

[JackB1]

FIFA08 (360) reminds me of NHL08 360. Looks and plays great...but it's too damn hard to score goals!!!

I went back and forth between both 360 demos of ProEvo and FIFA last night and was confused as to which game was better. I felt FIFA played more like real soccer. The pace seems spot on and the graphics look great...smooth animations...but I couldn't get into position for many quality shots on goal and it got frustrating after a while. ProEvo plays more arcade like....faster moving...more action. Easier to manuever with the ball and score goals, but it doesn't feel like soccer anymore. Who's idea was the crazy jump in gameplay speed? It seems crazy that they would take what was already great and make it into this arcade-like game of pinball-soccer.

This is very much like the NHL08 vs NHL2K8 debate. Both games have pluses and minuses that cancel each other out. The answer may be the same answer I had for NHL08.....play mostly online games.

[JRod]

If this gives you any idea how difficult this game is, I'm playing on Pro...not world class not legendary.

Last night I played quite a few matches. I lost 0-3 to Liverpool at home. I dominated Leiscester away in a 0-2 game where I had 22 shots. It really should have been 6-0 but I kept trying to be fancy. Against Blackburn, I was able to get a 1-1 draw away.

All seems pretty realistic.

[Jimmydeicide]

UPDATE:
I do in fact hate this game.

Grrrrrrr

I hate this game so much i finaly got so pissed at it online i just got back from trading it in. Thanks for the rental you pos.

Fifa07 was my worst game of the year last year and so far fifa 08 is holding on to first spot.
I dont know how Zep thinks online is good, its there were the games bad controls become even worse.
Ive never been so pissed at a game in all my life and finally the weight is off, i feel like i just lanced a boil.

Good riddance fifa you piece of s***!!!!!!

No smilies here im dead serious.

[JRod]

UPDATE:
I do in fact hate this game.

Grrrrrrr

I hate this game so much i finaly got so pissed at it online i just got back from trading it in. Thanks for the rental you pos.

Fifa07 was my worst game of the year last year and so far fifa 08 is holding on to first spot.
I dont know how Zep thinks online is good, its there were the games bad controls become even worse.
Ive never been so pissed at a game in all my life and finally the weight is off, i feel like i just lanced a boil.

Good riddance fifa you piece of s***!!!!!!

No smilies here im dead serious.

You must really suck at this game.

[Jimmydeicide]

No more than any other game , but whats your point?

[Cloud]

I like the be a pro mode, so far that is the only thing....

[seanmac31]

No more than any other game , but whats your point?

His point is that the control is fine and that the difficulty is fine, but that there is a substantial learning curve before you can enjoy them. I tend to agree. I would liken it to the Madden turnover issue- yes, there is something to it, but it's basically a case where EA has made things more difficult for a casual audience than they necessarily need to be. In Madden, the DBs do have a bit of an edge and there are a lot of fumbles, but a lot of it has to do with people throwing their passes at inappropriate times and failing to adequately protect the ball while running. The game might be better if EA had made it more user friendly, but if you concentrate on the fundamentals, you'll get consistently good results. (The AI turning the ball over is another matter.) It's the same in FIFA with the backline. You can absolutely beat them, but you really need to learn how to do it- what tricks to do, when to do them, when to use the right stick to flick the ball, when to use the through ball, what angles to take, etc, etc. I would in no way claim to be an expert at the game, but I've had success simply by using the controls (and I should add that I find them more responsive than some seem to), and I suspect JRod is the same way.

[Jimmydeicide]

No more than any other game , but whats your point?

His point is that the control is fine and that the difficulty is fine, but that there is a substantial learning curve before you can enjoy them. I tend to agree. I would liken it to the Madden turnover issue- yes, there is something to it, but it's basically a case where EA has made things more difficult for a casual audience than they necessarily need to be. In Madden, the DBs do have a bit of an edge and there are a lot of fumbles, but a lot of it has to do with people throwing their passes at inappropriate times and failing to adequately protect the ball while running. The game might be better if EA had made it more user friendly, but if you concentrate on the fundamentals, you'll get consistently good results. (The AI turning the ball over is another matter.) It's the same in FIFA with the backline. You can absolutely beat them, but you really need to learn how to do it- what tricks to do, when to do them, when to use the right stick to flick the ball, when to use the through ball, what angles to take, etc, etc. I would in no way claim to be an expert at the game, but I've had success simply by using the controls (and I should add that I find them more responsive than some seem to), and I suspect JRod is the same way.

Well Jrod there may be some truth to what you say and i probly havnt given it enough time but if i felt the game warrented my time to delve into it more and persevere to get were your at i would have done that but i just dont like the game there is more to soccer than passing, and pass all you want around and around to your stagnent teammates , sure i can make a guy run, straight forward into an offside spot as i cant adjust enough to get the ball to him as he hasnt made an angle at all, just ran straight forward.

Fundementals is being able to contest headers in the box, its heading the ball in the box when your marked by 3 guys( who are unable to react to him) not taking it on the chest.

Im probly playing these games differently than a lot of you but that shouldnt matter , i find i cant play the way i want with the game engine yeh i could adapt to the way they want me to play it but to me i dont feel its right and may be where the frustration with the controls comes in.

I am allowed to hate the game right ?
Dont get offended guys i said the same thing with 07 after a while.

[Leebo33]

Fundementals is being able to contest headers in the box, its heading the ball in the box when your marked by 3 guys( who are unable to react to him) not taking it on the chest.

These two things are probably my biggest problems with the game. I don't chest as many as I used to but I have a huge problem contesting headers in the box. I can be in seemingly perfect position and the CPU still consistently out jumps me.

One thing I definitely *don't* have a problem with is beating defenders one-on-one on the professional level. If I beat them much more often it wouldn't be realistic. It seems just about right. It truly does surprise me that folks are having trouble because I'm average at best. Maybe there is a learning curve. I don't use a lot of special moves...just some change of direction and the right stick. Maybe people are trying or thinking about it too much.

[Jimmydeicide]

Maybe jrod is right and i just suck, and its not as hard offline to do that but online all you need to do is press the guy and stats seem to take over and your dispossesed no matter the skill move , granted the added delay in control online doesnt help.

[seanmac31]

Fundementals is being able to contest headers in the box, its heading the ball in the box when your marked by 3 guys( who are unable to react to him) not taking it on the chest.

These two things are probably my biggest problems with the game. I don't chest as many as I used to but I have a huge problem contesting headers in the box. I can be in seemingly perfect position and the CPU still consistently out jumps me.

One thing I definitely *don't* have a problem with is beating defenders one-on-one on the professional level. If I beat them much more often it wouldn't be realistic. It seems just about right. It truly does surprise me that folks are having trouble because I'm average at best. Maybe there is a learning curve. I don't use a lot of special moves...just some change of direction and the right stick. Maybe people are trying or thinking about it too much.

Try heading on crosses by tapping Y in the direction of the goal.

[JRod]

Jimmy to be fair I did think that the game was as you described. I just kept playing and now its one of my favorite games of all-time.

In WE and in FIFA, I don't do any fancy, just 1-2s and crosses into the box. I rarely do special moves, because I think in most sports games they are mostly cheats.

If you don't like it that's one thing. But I think there's a real gem in FIFA 08 and I didn't get there in the first week.

[Jimmydeicide]

Yeh i may have been angry and traded it in prematurely but i have never been so pissed at a game at the time and we were on our way to EB to trade games for my lad to get guitar hero 3 and i threw it in.

I dont think , no matter how deep i delved in or how good i could get if i played more that my teamates would ever do enough running of the ball to please me tho.

Unless its like NHL08 were they get better as you ramp up the difficulty, is that the case ? Are you teamates smarter, make diagonal runs , more runs?

I will say when my brother finds out i traded it he will be pissed at me

[seanmac31]

Yeh i may have been angry and traded it in prematurely but i have never been so pissed at a game at the time and we were on our way to EB to trade games for my lad to get guitar hero 3 and i threw it in.

I dont think , no matter how deep i delved in or how good i could get if i played more that my teamates would ever do enough running of the ball to please me tho.

Unless its like NHL08 were they get better as you ramp up the difficulty, is that the case ? Are you teamates smarter, make diagonal runs , more runs?

I will say when my brother finds out i traded it he will be pissed at me

Your teammates make plenty of runs, and in any event, it's simple enough to send them on runs when you want them to.

[Jimmydeicide]

Yeh i may have been angry and traded it in prematurely but i have never been so pissed at a game at the time and we were on our way to EB to trade games for my lad to get guitar hero 3 and i threw it in.

I dont think , no matter how deep i delved in or how good i could get if i played more that my teamates would ever do enough running of the ball to please me tho.

Unless its like NHL08 were they get better as you ramp up the difficulty, is that the case ? Are you teamates smarter, make diagonal runs , more runs?

I will say when my brother finds out i traded it he will be pissed at me

Your teammates make plenty of runs, and in any event, it's simple enough to send them on runs when you want them to.

Are you reading what im saying ? Its the quality of the run straight forward into an offside position.
How about an angle ?
Im not stupid i used all the control options available to me, i read the manual over and over on the crapper.

[Zeppo]

Well, I've started to have a lot more success scoring goals v. CPU in the last couple of days. Rob's advice was the most useful, I think, in telling me to stick with direct passing near the box instead of trying diagonal through balls to get open into the wing or through balls into the box, and to shoot more often near the box.

But the main thing has been my adjustment to and acceptance of the 'ball ownership' aspect of the FIFA game engine. What do I mean by that? Well, it's clear to me now that in certain situations, the game gives the offensive player ownership of the ball, or more license to get the ball than the defensive player. Back in the days before FIFA started trying to directly ape what Konami's game was doing, this ball ownership was a hallmark of the FIFA gameplay. It functioned in terms of ball possession much like we see in hoops or hockey games, where the player the game decided was 'in control' of the ball controlled it, and the defenders couldn't really touch it. It's the invisible string we all remember has only recently gone away from FIFA. In the old FIFAs, this meant that to tackle the ball away, you had to play the player first, bump him off the ball, and then you were allowed to touch the ball. You could try to go after the ball itself all you wanted, even stand right where the offensive player was dribbling it, but it would go through you or bounce off you and you couldn't really knock it away. But if you bumped the player, that would free up the ball, and you had a chance to gain control.

Now, in this new FIFA, this effect is greatly lessened, but in many cases it is still a central part of the gameplay, and for me grasping this concept and using to my advantage has really opened up the scoring. Where I see it most is in double-tapped crosses, where my striker will get a magical extra burst of speed, or be able to rub right by or even through defenders to get to that ball that when you sent it in, you thought he was nowhere near in position to get to it. Meanwhile, the defenders, even if they are in better position, will often just stand there, or they will react too slowly to get to it. I see it also when I try to one-time a shot around the box, or one-time a pass. If i try to just trap and dribble, the defender can often take the ball after that trap and off he goes. But if I have charged up a shot or a pass, sometimes it doesn't come off on that one-timer, but rather the player will take one controlling touch and then take the shot or make the pass. In these situations, where I've charged up a shot or pass before the ball has arrived, this first trapping touch is untouchable for the defender. Even if he is right there, the offensive player will get to that second ball and hammer away the shot, sometimes seemingly going right through the defender, or sometimes the shot itself seems to go right through the defender.

Also, I see this in those tackles-you-can't-make that JRod mentioned way back in the beginning of this thread. These are the deals where, as a defender, you can get yourself between the dribbler and the ball, but your guy just won't touch the ball at all, and the dribbler will pretty much go right through you and dribble away. It's this ball ownerrship thing, still hanging over from old FIFAs.

Now, we are all used to this ball ownership idea in hoops and hockey games, so it's not that big of a deal. But for me what has made it such an adjustment is the degree to which this has never been a part of the WE game engine, and in fact is a major thing that sets that game so far above the other sports games in my mind. In WE, the ball is the ball, and it is free and available to all players at all times.

So, now that I've started to grasp this concept, I've been scoring a lot more goals. I've sent crosses in, double tap crosses, early crosses in situations where previously I didn't feel it was a good idea, and my strikers have blasted through everything in their way to get to the ball and hammer it towards goal. I've received passes at the top of the box with a charged up shot, and even if there are defenders right there, the man will either one time it with force, or take that controlling touch and no matter what is in the way, get to it and blast it on goal. And my ability to beat defenders one on one as improved a little bit as well.

The ball is a lot more available to all players than I remember in past FIFAs, but there is stilll just enough of that sense of ball ownership by the 'player in possession of the ball' to make it a key element to my recent success scoring goals.

And I think Jimmy is right, FIFA is all about passing, and there is a lot more to the real game than just passing. I don't get that sense in FIFA where I can loft a long diagonal ball and let my striker try to muscle with the defender to gain possession the way I do in WE all the time. I just don't try it, because that muscling for the ball doesn't seem to work in a way that makes sense to me, that I can understand why one guy wins and the other guy doesn't, so I'm not doing a lot of quick-strike direct play. And through balls are very limited to me, and I think it's a combination of the lack of diagonal runs away from defenders and the through balls themselves going in the worst place possible 80% of the time, like, closer to the defender than the regular pass would have gone. I am getting used to the sluggish controls, and adjusting to rhythm of the game, and I think head to head, it's a case of 'all things are even; it's the same for both players,' so it's lots of fun for me. And if they ever get that online team play download, then we can make all the intelligent diagonal runs we want to off the ball, and the game will be great. I can't wait to try some five on five at least a couple of times (have to have three locked guys and two free agents), and tons of two on two.

[Macca00]

Before I start I have to re-iterate that I really like this game.

I've played more than 70 games online and more than 100 offline against the CPU (you can check my stats to show I'm not bullsh!tting) and I have to say that while there is a lot that the game does really well there are still problems that put it second to Winning Eleven in terms of realism and variety of play and even though I'm scoring goals and dominating possession in most games (online & off, I even beat the 56th ranked guy 3-2, he was Barca and I was Milan - just to shamelessly toot my own horn) I can still understand where Jimmy and Zep are coming from.

One of the big problems for me is still the reaction time - it drives me absolutely insane when players will randomly decide to 'chest' control head high balls. This is annoying when it's a scoring chance with a loose ball in the box and you're hammering the shoot button and your idiot player decides to show off his control. And it's drives me absolutely bat-sh!t when it occurs on the defensive side of the ball - this is the worst online when a significant number of the goals or scoring chances I've conceded have come when the ball bounces loose in the box and I'm hitting the shoot button for my defender to clear the ball and he just dallies on it or tries to chest control it (IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BOX WITH SIX OR SEVEN PLAYERS AROUND HIM!).

The reaction time problem is also present with the keepers - no matter how quickly you hold the rush keeper button they always hesitate and sometimes they'll quickly run forward and then....slow....down...to give the attacker a chance to get the ball.

Some of the top players I've played against use these two things to perfection - they play driven balls across the box from in close knowing that at least half the time your defender will try to control it, or the game WON'T LET YOU switch to the closest defender. Or they play it just into the right space so your keeper will hesitate to get it (despite you holding down the button cussing at the TV) and your defenders won't get there in time.



While the defenders and midfielders don't read your mind the amount of passes they cut out and their positioning make an absolute mockery of the art of defending because EVERYONE is so good at it. You don't need to have Mascherano or Makalele in a defensive midfield position because you could put Yossi Benayoun infront of the back 4 and he'll cut everything out or be in PERFECT position.

Compare this to WE where in last year's DSP league Mascherano was immense for my West Ham side and I saw a HUGE difference in how well I would cut out the ball if I had him in front of the back four instead of Reo Coker, Mullins or Bowyer.


The same goes for defenders, sure I can notice that Terry is stronger and wins more headers than other defenders but even the crappiest defenders (even lower-league guys) have the positional awareness of Franco Baresi.


A big result of this (and the poor quality of player movement, off the ball, compared to WE) means that, as St Cloud said, you never have to change your formation online or off. In real life if a team is playing a 4-3-3 and just hitting the wings you'd likely do a 3-5-2 or a 5-3-2 with wingbacks and dominate possession in the midfield. And in WE that's what you can do, sure every other idiot picked Inter and Barca but I could play 3-5-2 against even top 100 ranked guys and dominate play.

In FIFA you can have only 3 men in midfield but their positional awareness is so good that you don't get any advantage trying to crowd the midfield with more men.

So even when everyone and their mother plays 4-3-3 with Barca I just stick to whatever default formation Liverpool or Valencia have because it doesn't really make a difference.


PS Sorry for the verbal diarrhea. lol

[Macca00]

Sorry Double Post.

[Rodster]

As others have said many times what the FIFA series badly needs in this order is:

1) Organic AI
2) A header button
3) Gameplay sliders

In WE/PES the AI is smart enough to know when to head or chest the ball. There are some things that FIFA bugs me as well but my biggest beef is a lag in response when switching players and AI just standing in position with their thumb up their butt waiting for something to do unless you can quickly switch to a player closest to the ball. Hoping you did not expose yourself to a CPU scoring chance.

[JRod]

Zeppo's explanation is mostly right but not really. All offensive players might get an advantage on their first touch. After the first touch you can take the ball away or get the ball taken away.

Macca,
I'm sorry but you are seeing things in WE that really don't exist. Positional abilities in WE are just homogenenous. Zak Knight and John Terry play exactly the same. You don't see Knight in WE play terrible position. Neither game really mimicks how a bad defensive player can muck up the backline. Either not holding the line, not marking player or letting players go on free runs.

In both games, when the backline can set into four strong and player abilities are about the same. You can break apart any backline with 1-2s. But when the backline can set, crosses, short quick passes are defended exactly the same.

[Zeppo]

Zeppo's explanation is mostly right but not really. All offensive players might get an advantage on their first touch. After the first touch you can take the ball away or get the ball taken away.

That's not any different than what I said. What I didn't say is that when you do the little L-trigger + R-stick 'simple tricks' the ball ownership comes into play as well.

For me it's about the breakthrough that has allowed me to start scoring goals with consistency. That breakthrough has been mostly due to me taking less account of what the defensive positioning is, where the space is, and so on, and more to do with forcing the action by taking that one-timer shot (attempted one-timer, sometimes it's a trap and shot), that double-tap cross no matter how many defenders are in the box, and so on.

It's like they have now allowed the ball to be free in terms of the ball physics, but still maintain a bit of the ball ownership mechanic by using 'reverse kinematics' to give the player who is 'supposed' to get to the ball that extra boost or the ability to slide past or through the defender. It's not the old yo-yo string of FIFAs past, but on many passes and crosses the game still decides who should be getting to the ball.

One thing about the difference between playing head to head and v. CPU has to do with what the players you are not controlling do on defense or with 50-50 balls. I have seen my own teammates, who the game has decided are not supposed to get to the ball, have the ball hit them in the leg and they don't react, or stand still or nearly still and watch the ball go by. I can become that guy and make him react, but in a lot of cases, if I am not directly controlling that player, he won't react to the ball very well if at all. However, the CPU seems to be able to 'control' all players at all times. What I see is that the second man for the CPU does a very good job of getting to the ball if I've beaten the first man than the second man for a human controlled team. This is part of what has been so hard for me in terms of beating guys, in that I can get past the one man but the second man seems to always be there and reacting to the R-sticked ball very quickly. Playing v. human online, I've had a ton more success creating advantageous situations in the final third, and I think this has a lot to do with it.

[dougb]

Zeppo's explanation is mostly right but not really. All offensive players might get an advantage on their first touch. After the first touch you can take the ball away or get the ball taken away.

Macca,
I'm sorry but you are seeing things in WE that really don't exist. Positional abilities in WE are just homogenenous. Zak Knight and John Terry play exactly the same. You don't see Knight in WE play terrible position. Neither game really mimicks how a bad defensive player can muck up the backline. Either not holding the line, not marking player or letting players go on free runs.

In both games, when the backline can set into four strong and player abilities are about the same. You can break apart any backline with 1-2s. But when the backline can set, crosses, short quick passes are defended exactly the same.

Actually I think that in PES 2008 the backlines just get shredded apart - defensive positioning has become absymal (pariticularly side backs). There's too much goddamn movement of defenders - if they ran around like that in real life they'd be coughing up their lungs. Playing a game and my f*cking left midfielder is over covering a player on the opposite side of the field when there's a thrown in. In FIFA it's hard to score and hard to be score on. Positional play is generally very good - in fact, its too structured and regimentd.

In PES 2008 they've upped the advantage to the attacker so much that it is insanely difficult to play defense. It's almost like they deliberately set out to break the defensive AI.

Best wishes,

Doug

[Jimmydeicide]

It kinda goes back to my first post on it not feeling like im controling my players, never more evident when i do take control of a defender on a corner and move into position to contest a chest ball(sarcasm)its like im not supposed to be there and the game decides to not let me react, pound as many buttons as you want mate your not getting it first.
Or when im chasing a long ball and the game tells me dont bother to go for that mate its probly going out lets just halt here the fans wont mind you acting like you dont give a crap or your 3-1 down.
Or taking the extra touch even tho ive one timed a pass or shot.

[Jimmydeicide]

Zeppo's explanation is mostly right but not really. All offensive players might get an advantage on their first touch. After the first touch you can take the ball away or get the ball taken away.

Macca,
I'm sorry but you are seeing things in WE that really don't exist. Positional abilities in WE are just homogenenous. Zak Knight and John Terry play exactly the same. You don't see Knight in WE play terrible position. Neither game really mimicks how a bad defensive player can muck up the backline. Either not holding the line, not marking player or letting players go on free runs.

In both games, when the backline can set into four strong and player abilities are about the same. You can break apart any backline with 1-2s. But when the backline can set, crosses, short quick passes are defended exactly the same.

Actually I think that in PES 2008 the backlines just get shredded apart - defensive positioning has become absymal (pariticularly side backs). There's too much goddamn movement of defenders - if they ran around like that in real life they'd be coughing up their lungs. Playing a game and my f*cking left midfielder is over covering a player on the opposite side of the field when there's a thrown in. In FIFA it's hard to score and hard to be score on. Positional play is generally very good - in fact, its too structured and regimentd.

In PES 2008 they've upped the advantage to the attacker so much that it is insanely difficult to play defense. It's almost like they deliberately set out to break the defensive AI.

Best wishes,

Doug

Thats what i didnt like about last years PES they made your defense brain dead and let your left and right backs out on the wings.
So it hasnt improved ?