Wanted Forza2 clean racers -- for same car stock car racing

red95vette · Post by **red95vette** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:56 pm

I posted this on a couple other forums. Someone recommended I also post it here. I've gotten 14 people interested so far in just a few hours and am hoping to get a collection of 30 or more players. I almost had enough online tonight to get the room going a couple of times.

<Original message below>

OK, I'm sick of playing with 12 year olds on XBL and people who think fun racing is either whipping everyone in the field with your tricked out, overpowered Ford GT (or whatever) -OR- alternatively if you happen to be losing due to some mechanical problem, or heaven help you better competition, then wrecking everyone else in the race.

So here's my call for help! I want to organize some online FUN, CLEAN, STRATEGIC racing. I've tried to host these online before but no one will enter the race lobby or else leaves when they find out the rules.

Rules are:
SIM Damage
SIM Fuel/Tires
NO MODIFIED OR TUNED Cars
NO Driver Line (there isn't one in real-life afterall)
NO Driver assists (I'm willing to allow AT and ABS if absolutely necessary)

For each race, I'd like to pick a random venue AND car make/model. Everyone has to race a stock car, default tuned, available from the arcade choices or if you have a custom painted one in your garage that's fine. I'd like to typically run at least 10 laps and 25 is even better IMO! It's great when fuel/tires/pitting come into the strategy for the race.

I'm not that great of a racer (I'm average to slightly-above I'd say) and ALL SKILLS ARE WELCOME as long as you are (or try to be) a clean racer.

If this type of racing sounds fun to you send me a friend request. If enough people are interested (and online at one time) I'll open a room and we'll give it a try!

XBLive Handle = "itshimagain"

TCrouch · Post by **TCrouch** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:12 pm

I said it at OS, but I'll say it again...interested.

Just don't crumble and turn on assists. Stick to no assists like the original plan was, as it makes people more cautious with their brakes and not so hell-bent on rushing into corners.

red95vette · Post by **red95vette** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:36 am

Yep, sent you a friend request yesterday. I've decided that I'll allow Auto Trans and ABS at a max.

I use ABS myself sometimes with cars I'm not used to driving. But, I know what you mean and I too would rather have EVERYTHING off, but its a matter of being able to get enough people willing to come in to the room and stay. I'll try to wean people off of the ABS over time.

Nozzleman_216 · Post by **Nozzleman_216** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:21 am

I am in if everything is off. There is no weaning. You either learn to drive with them off or you don't.

But I am interested and love the idea of the stock cars etc....... I hope you can make this work. I would say you will get some interest here, the last few nights I played we had more guys on than what we could have in a room.

TCrouch · Post by **TCrouch** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:13 am

red95vette wrote:Yep, sent you a friend request yesterday. I've decided that I'll allow Auto Trans and ABS at a max.

I use ABS myself sometimes with cars I'm not used to driving. But, I know what you mean and I too would rather have EVERYTHING off, but its a matter of being able to get enough people willing to come in to the room and stay. I'll try to wean people off of the ABS over time.

Oh, if ABS is on...I'm not so enthusiastic about it. I understood it to be an all-assists-off thing, sorry. I have plenty of racing with the guys around here that are clean (thankfully!).

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:38 pm

I am interested. I like the no-tune, stock car idea, as I know Terry does.

Red, if you want good clean racers, just add all the guys in the Forza threads here. You won't find a friendlier, cleaner racing bunch anywhere.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:25 pm

I'm in.

I think ABS and auto should be allow though (as you are planning), as it helps even the playing field and guys who can get around without using one or both, will ultimately have an advantage anyway since you can't be as fast auto shifting and using ABS.

I don't like not being able to run setups for different tracks, because tuning/adjusting a car's suspension, downforce, gearing, etc.... is just as big of a part of racing as is the driver knowing what line to take. Even "stock" cars have these sorts of individual differences, obviously, and are not truely 100% the same.

I like the idea of running the same non-upgraded car for everyone, but I wish there was a way to allow setups (which can't be done if you disable upgraded cars). I guess we could run a car with adjustable parts, as long as the P.I. rating stayed the same as the arcade version of the car?

Either way I'm cool though, as it's a give and take and I can give up the advantage I might have on how to properly setup a car for a track if someone using a wheel is giving up their advantage on easily being able to use manual shifting and non-ABS braking (both of which is entirely easier to use with the wheel vs a gamepad).

Nozzleman_216 · Post by **Nozzleman_216** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:35 pm

STOCK IS STOCK!!! No tuning of the setups and no upgrades, cars must have same PI.

I have to say it though, everyone, you do know that when you do the TT's and basically everything that is posted to the leaderboard/scoreboard that we can see what assists you used. So yes , we know who uses all the assists and who do not. I am so enthusiastic to have a SIM style of Forza a few nights a week.

Let me say this, I have no problem with guys using the assists that need them. I know that there is and whatever it takes to help make the experience fun is fine by me. Its the guys that use them and don't need them and feel they need to spank the field every race and always use that highest rated PI car that rubs me the wrong way!! I don't think I am alone either!

TCrouch · Post by **TCrouch** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:35 pm

Damn Corey, tell us how you really feel!

Nozzleman_216 · Post by **Nozzleman_216** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:13 pm

I thought maybe I would get a ditto

red95vette · Post by **red95vette** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:40 pm

Definitely "ditto" from me

JackB1 & Xboxjon -- I tried to add you guys and got a message that your friend's list is full?!? Same message for both of you.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:49 pm

red95vette wrote:Definitely "ditto" from me

JackB1 & Xboxjon -- I tried to add you guys and got a message that your friend's list is full?!? Same message for both of you.

I'll make room right now.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:10 pm

SEMINOLE wrote:STOCK IS STOCK!!! No tuning of the setups and no upgrades, cars must have same PI.

Taking away the ability to change nothing but the tire pressure is alot less of a "sim" race than allow the use of ABS and TC (which many race cars actually have). Allowing auto shifting should be a non issue, as it actually makes you slower, especially in turns when you're wanting to keep a certain RPM and prevent wheel slippage with an untimely shift. In fact, every single one of the assists actually prevents a driver from putting up their very best time (other than the braking line obviously).

Also, changing the setup (tire pressure, camber, gear ratio, downforce, etc...) does absolutely nothing to the P.I. rating. Stock is not stock. Stock car racing means using the same type of car, with the same engine, tires, etc... but not necessarily the same setup (talking real life here). What you're talking about (in the game) is stock arcade racing. As I mentioned in my previous post... part of being fast is not just knowing when to brake/accelerate and turn, it's also knowing what downforce to run, how to balance a car for a specific track, how to change gearing ratios for certain circuits, etc.... It call goes together.

SEMINOLE wrote: Let me say this, I have no problem with guys using the assists that need them. I know that there is and whatever it takes to help make the experience fun is fine by me.

How do we qualify someone as needing a certain assist vs not needing an assist? I know I set most of my TT times with alot of aids on, specifically because I wanted to get through it ASAP and unlock all of the cars (and get the achievement). Hell, I did some of the arcade time trials with all of the assists on to make sure that I only had to do one single flying lap to beat the target time and wouldn't have to go around the circuit a second time to qualify.

I don't know if I'm reading into it too much, but you're coming off a bit pretentious about assists. ABS is almost a must with the gamepad due to the short range of motion, and I use TC alot with high powered RWD cars in these online rooms to make sure that I'm getting a good start off the grid and clear of the cornholing. As for the times on the scoreboards, I know for me personally I haven't done one hot lap session where I'm trying to beat a time or a ghost. Everything I've set so far has been via an online race or through a career race where I'm not even concerned with my times yet.... just finishing in 1st. Game's been out only a week, don't look at scoreboard times now (and assists used) and think that's what that person normally has turned on. Every situation is different and the scoreboards don't tell you how that time was turned (online, career, hot lap/testing mode, etc). It's all about getting everything unlocked right now and finishing career mode. After that's done, it will be time for some hardcore tuning/setup tweaking, removing assists to make sure nothing is there to slow you down and turning some hot laps.

SEMINOLE wrote: Its the guys that use them and don't need them and feel they need to spank the field every race and always use that highest rated PI car that rubs me the wrong way!! I don't think I am alone either!

There's a PI limit in the host settings for a reason. If the host doesn't want the highest PI cars in a certain class, they can very easily drop it down to eliminate certain cars. Not sure how that would rub you, or anyone else, the wrong way? As for spanking the field, is the lead car supposed to slow down when they're lapping the field and wait on the shoulder for the rest of the pack to catch up? I play my games with my 4yr old that way, letting him catch up and win sometimes, but to me that would be insulting to have someone that's beating me try and dumb down their game to make me feel like I have a chance. Again. Assists ultimately SLOW YOU DOWN. You can go faster, much faster, without them enabled. If someone is using them (who, in your opinion shouldn't be), by them disabling those assists it's probably just going to end up making them even faster and harder to catch!

red95vette · Post by **red95vette** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:55 am

Jon,

I agree with you 100% that properly setting up a car is just as important in racing as properly driving it. In my PS3 Formula One Championship career, I run many test laps (usually at least 30, sometimes up to 75-80 -- longer than the race in some cases) tweaking the balance, gear ratios, suspension, et cetera for each venue.

But in this case, to make it more accesible to more people, I want to limit the setups to default. A lot of the people interested in this type of racing will not have had the time to run these cars enough (or at all) to have developed setups for them. Even with the same PI, a properly tuned car (track specific) is night-and-day better than a default car.

On the other hand, if the format was more scheduled, it would be a different matter. For instance, if I had a core group of guys that I KNEW were going to be online and racing consistently I could preannounce "next session we'll race the Eagle Talon, PT Cruiser, and Honda Civic 1.5 VTi in 10 lap races at maple valley, sukuza, leguna seca, and tskuba." In this scenario, if sessions were say once or twice a week, people would have time to create custom setups for these car/track combos if they wanted to.

But at the moment, so far I've only gotten 24 responses of people who want to do the stock racing thing anyway and some like TCrouch have put conditional qualifiers on their participation -- and naturally everyone's wants are divergent. So, I have to just pick a default set of rules (as I've already outlined them) and hope to build the interest to a large enough level that this group can get going. So far, over the last couple nights of monitoring the most online at any time out of the 24 has been 6. I tried a couple times to get a room started & send out invites but the best I got in it was 2 (3 including myself) and I'd ideally like to run with a min of 5 cars.

Anyway, the "rules" can certainly change in the future if a large enough core group is OK with them. But, I encourage anyone who is interested at all at least to give it a try even if 1 or 2 of these rules don't fit your "perfect" scenario. You may find that it's a blast anyway.

Hope to see you online at some point.

TCrouch · Post by **TCrouch** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:39 am

Jon,

Corey and I kind of share the same views, although Corey is much less diplomatic about it

Sure. Your point about being able to hot lap faster with assists off is true. There is no doubt that a car control dynamo can get the most out of a vehicle with no assists and never make a mistake. None of us here can do that, though.

I think what Corey was saying is that it's entirely possible to run without assists using the game pad (almost everybody has), so blaming the gamepad won't really hold up. The problem that some of us have is that you ARE capable of being one of the top guys, and yet you will still pick the highest PI car class and run with ABS and whatnot on. Sure you get a better start, and your car is dominant, but then don't you start to feel a bit guilty beating the field by half a lap in a car that's at the top of the PI index? I know I do, so I usually end up picking a car somewhere in the middle of the field, or at the rear. It's just a consistent thing where the PI is set to 400, you will grab a 399 car and just mop the floor with the field, and then if Seminole or myself are in the room, then we have two choices: grab a good car and check out and go into 1-on-1 competition with you, or stay in a slow car and not compete at all because we're hanging with the other drivers due to handicapping. It's like you won't even have any of it.

To compound it, you're destroying the field AND using the assists...I think Corey was just saying that you should give yourself a challenge and learn to drive with them off. Sure, you might not wax everybody by a country mile, but it IS entirely possible to drive with assists off using a gamepad. All of us here have done it at some point. There's just a fine line between making it as difficult as you can for yourself and beating somebody, and taking every possible advantage you can get and then beating somebody 10 times worse. Not to mention the guys running without assists...if they miss a brake point, goose the throttle too much, etc...the penalty is FAR more severe than when you run with assists. Sure you can be quicker overall, but it's not by much. And when you screw up, it's made exponentially worse with the assists off. So it's more of the self-handicapping thing.

You're fast. We all know it. But you don't really challenge yourself or handicap yourself at all. You'll probably surprise yourself and find that you can still beat most of the drivers in a car without assists...you'll just have a few more bobbles, or have to be a bit more cautious here and there. I don't know of a more diplomatic way of putting it, I guess.

Fshguy · Post by **Fshguy** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:24 pm

Red,

You can put me down as interested.

mixdj1 · Post by **mixdj1** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:28 pm

Add me to the list please.

Leadfoot5 · Post by **Leadfoot5** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:43 pm

I'm usually only around late nights, but put me down too!

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:01 pm

I'm willing to give it a shot. I've been playing with ABS, but this weekend I'm going to try and get used to manual shifting and no assists.

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:04 pm

jondiehl wrote:
red95vette wrote:Definitely "ditto" from me

JackB1 & Xboxjon -- I tried to add you guys and got a message that your friend's list is full?!? Same message for both of you.
I'll make room right now.

same here....try again Fri nite or Sat

Gurantsu · Post by **Gurantsu** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:33 am

You can add me to the list, although I'm off to the shore for a week so won't be around.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:41 am

TCrouch wrote:Jon,

The problem that some of us have is that you ARE capable of being one of the top guys, and yet you will still pick the highest PI car class and run with ABS and whatnot on. Sure you get a better start, and your car is dominant, but then don't you start to feel a bit guilty beating the field by half a lap in a car that's at the top of the PI index? I know I do, so I usually end up picking a car somewhere in the middle of the field, or at the rear. It's just a consistent thing where the PI is set to 400, you will grab a 399 car and just mop the floor with the field, and then if Seminole or myself are in the room, then we have two choices: grab a good car and check out and go into 1-on-1 competition with you, or stay in a slow car and not compete at all because we're hanging with the other drivers due to handicapping. It's like you won't even have any of it.

That's not exactly true. When there is only one or two other "fast" drivers in the room, I'll usually have a conversation with them and we can self-handicap ourselves and make our own PI limit compared to the room's PI limit. You and I have done this before in fact, using Mini Coopers that one night in a circuit race.

The problem is, alot of times there might only be 3 or 4 DSP guys in a room, and the rest is made up of unknowns (to me), and of course I'm going to take whatever car I want at that point. I race to win, so I'm going to take the best car available to me if that's the case.

In the end, there should really be no excuse on not having the same cars as everyone else. Seriously. It takes all of a couple hours to run through the time trials and arcade exhibitions to unlock all 70 cars, and it's easy enough that even the slowest of drivers can do it. If the room doesn't want 399 and 400 cars in the field when the PI limit is set at <400, then the room has two choices. 1) Set the PI lower to get rid of those cars or 2) take the couple of hours like I did to unlock all 70 cars so you have access to everything in the game. Sure, if it's an all DSP crowd and I know that I'm the only fast guy or one of a handful, we can have that discussion amongst ourselves, but that hasn't been the case alot of times I've jumped in a room.

TCrouch wrote: But you don't really challenge yourself or handicap yourself at all. You'll probably surprise yourself and find that you can still beat most of the drivers in a car without assists...you'll just have a few more bobbles, or have to be a bit more cautious here and there. I don't know of a more diplomatic way of putting it, I guess.

Again, I guess it depends on the room. Often times I have and will continue to, challenge/limit myself if I'm in a room of slower drivers and will drive without any assists on. My point in the previous rant was that just because a time on the scoreboard shows certain assists, don't assume that that person is driving like that all of the time or online. For the Time Trials and Exhibition arcade, I put on whatever assists I felt like because I was racing the AI, not caring about a top time, and simply wanted to make sure that I got through with unlocking all 70 cars ASAP so that I could get to online racing with real people. Same thing in career mode, I'm finding it very boring (as I did in Forza 1), so often times I'll turn on whatever assists I feel necessary to beat the AI for that race so that I can get through with the drudgery of single player ASAP. Many times, and new hot lap time is set for the scoreboards when I'm doing that, which will probably be tough to beat when racing online with non-upgraded cars, no setups, and many times not using the same assists that I did offline.

Anyway, it was more of a labeling thing than anything, and I wanted to be clear that I'm not using the driving line, stability control, etc.... when racing online. Typically I'll use ABS and Auto online, that's it... and occasionally TC (depending on the type of car and type of competition... ie. if I want to make sure I get a good start on the grid ahead of the turn 1 carnage).

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:23 am

Thanks for the races... eventually had to bail out of frustration at the end, once I started cornholing people uncontrollably. Nailing ndstewie twice in a row was more than I could take. Zeppo was a vicitim too... side by side at Laguna, I was looking around judging whether to back off as the turn approached, then just grazed the wall on the left which sent me bouncing into him. Not a good night for my self-confidence!

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:31 am

Good racing last night guys, until we started having some connection issues. Oh well, I needed an excuse to jump off and watch the Entourage premier.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:49 am

Slumberland wrote:Thanks for the races... eventually had to bail out of frustration at the end, once I started cornholing people uncontrollably. Nailing ndstewie twice in a row was more than I could take.

Now if that isn't a signature, I don't know what is.