OT: Michael Vick & Dogfighting

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:40 pm

pk500 wrote:
ScoopBrady wrote:I read those two points but what do they have to do with what I wrote?

They have everything to do with your claim that I'm endorsing dog fighting. I don't endorse it.

There's the misunderstanding. I'm not saying that you endorse dog fighting. I'm saying that you said it's ironic that ESPN is covering MMA now despite being behind the leader of the Vick prosecution. To me that's the same as saying if they're willing to cover MMA they should endorse dog fighting. I'm not trying to imply you endorse dog fighting.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed May 30, 2007 12:56 pm

10-4. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

Take care,
PK

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Wed May 30, 2007 1:36 pm

pk500 wrote:10-4. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

Take care,
PK

No problem dude. I'm kind of embarrassed it took me 3 tries to convey my message.

And since I never really chimed in about the topic, I think the NFL has every right to get involved right now. There's been too many questionable things going on with Vick and he acts like it's no big deal. The new commish has been coming down hard on players who aren't superstars so he better not go easy on Vick.

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:16 pm

JackB1 wrote: I also detest hunting. There should be more of a public outcry against it as well. Problem is that "hunting" is so ingrained in our society as something that is "acceptable"....especially in the south. Waiting in a tree perch for a deer to come walking into your view and then shooting one with a rifle in the head, just for your own "sporting pleasure" is a terrible, inhumane act, just like watching 2 dogs fight to the death is. We still have a long way to go to becoming a "civilized" society.

Do you eat meat or are you a vegetarian?

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:44 pm

pk500 wrote:
JackB1 wrote:Waiting in a tree perch for a deer to come walking into your view and then shooting one with a rifle in the head, just for your own "sporting pleasure" is a terrible, inhumane act, just like watching 2 dogs fight to the death is. We still have a long way to go to becoming a "civilized" society.
Jack:

That's horsesh*t, plain and simple.

Hunting is a sport and an effective form of animal population control. I live in an area that is teeming with deer.

Take care,
PK

Hunting is a sport? Does that make hunters athletes? If so, my brother is very, um, a 'bit' out of shape... ho ho.

Back to the topic, PK asked if there would be the same outcry if it was cockfighting. The answer is Yes, if it was a felony. A felony is a felony. Ask any 3rd striker.... Seems like everyone is forgetting this is crime, not a preference.

peabody · Post by **peabody** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:02 pm

Spooky wrote:
JackB1 wrote: I also detest hunting. There should be more of a public outcry against it as well. Problem is that "hunting" is so ingrained in our society as something that is "acceptable"....especially in the south. Waiting in a tree perch for a deer to come walking into your view and then shooting one with a rifle in the head, just for your own "sporting pleasure" is a terrible, inhumane act, just like watching 2 dogs fight to the death is. We still have a long way to go to becoming a "civilized" society.
Do you eat meat or are you a vegetarian?

I would classify myself as a hypocrite in these regards and actually struggle with this every now and then. Not a big fan of hunting and could not bring myself to kill an animal unless it was for self defense. I think if I was forced to kill an animal myself for food I might actually become vegetarian. Maybe my attitude would change if Publix wasn't around the corner.

greggsand wrote: Back to the topic, PK asked if there would be the same outcry if it was cockfighting. The answer is Yes, if it was a felony. A felony is a felony. Ask any 3rd striker.... Seems like everyone is forgetting this is crime, not a preference.

Was that the topic?

I thought we were talking about Elijah Dukes. Er, no, I mean Michael Vick. Both Suck.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:17 pm

greggsand wrote:Back to the topic, PK asked if there would be the same outcry if it was cockfighting. The answer is Yes, if it was a felony. A felony is a felony. Ask any 3rd striker.... Seems like everyone is forgetting this is crime, not a preference.

I beg to differ. Are people up in arms because this is a felony or because it's a felony involving an animal that millions own as a pet and often treat like a human member of the family?

Clearly the latter. You're trying to tell me there would be this much outcry if the crime was a felony for forgery instead of dog fighting?

Please.

Take care,
PK

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:27 pm

Actually, hunting is very neccessary. In most cases large animals are controlled so their population doesn't increase beyoun appropriate size. Of course this is do to humans eradicating their environments and killing predators but still hunting serves a purpose. I'm not a hunter nor do I ever plan on taking it up.

Dog fighting does not.

Vick should get a 1 year probation. That would end the dog fighting culture in the NFL.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:33 pm

JRod wrote:Vick should get a 1 year probation. That would end the dog fighting culture in the NFL.

Just like probation has ended recreational drug use among NFL players ...

Take care,
PK

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Wed May 30, 2007 3:36 pm

kevinpars wrote:Well, Pacman Jones has 10 arrests but only 1 conviction, so I am not sure what criteria the NFL is using.

I think there are 2 states where it is not illegal to be at a dogfight as a spectator. But it is still an illegal activity to be involved in setting up or using your dog - but perhaps not a felony.

Those players are employed by the NFL, and most corporations have
"at will" employment policies. You can be let go for just about any reason, as long as there is no discrimination behind the termination. If I get hammered at the Christmas party, have sex another coworker on the work premises, and then throw up in the company bathroom, I haven't broken any laws, but you're damn right I could get fired.

The NFL has a brand to protect. That's what the commish is doing with these cases. I am actually pretty tolerant of player behavior. If a player is a boor or a showoff, while I don't endorse that, I don't care that much as long the player plays hard. But when you cross the line from egotistical to criminal or even unethical, that's a big step. It makes it hard for the fans to root for players, which seriously undermines the NFL's economic power. So I think it's good they are pushing for bigger punishments for things like this. If they don't like it, they can find employment elsewhere.

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:07 pm

pk500 wrote:
greggsand wrote:Back to the topic, PK asked if there would be the same outcry if it was cockfighting. The answer is Yes, if it was a felony. A felony is a felony. Ask any 3rd striker.... Seems like everyone is forgetting this is crime, not a preference.
I beg to differ. Are people up in arms because this is a felony or because it's a felony involving an animal that millions own as a pet and often treat like a human member of the family?

Clearly the latter. You're trying to tell me there would be this much outcry if the crime was a felony for forgery instead of dog fighting?

Please.

Take care,
PK

Well, we'll just have to dis-agree. Yeah, people find dogfighting more distgusting than writing a fake check(duh, brilliant!), but everyone loves when STAR athletes break the law. For nfl fans, it's a national pastime. Also, if this was a backup DB or O-lineman for the Seattle, it'd barely be story. It's more the "Vick Factor" than the dog lovers you seem to enjoy baiting...

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:27 pm

I see your point Brando, but I just think that the way things are now it leaves way too much up to interpretation. Just look at the opinions on this thread. If PK was the commissioner, the penalty for Vick might be different than if Jack was the commissioner.

Should the NFL act against players who, as PK noted, spread their seed around at will? Then what about Tom Brady? Child out of wedlock - bad for the image of the NFL. And what about T.O.? As he is quick to point out, he isn't out there breaking the law, but he sure has hurt the image of the league just by opening his mouth.

If a starting QB gets a DUI it is big news. If the backup safety gets one in the off season it might not even make the local paper. But does that mean the QB should face more punishment from the NFL than the backup??

It is no bug off my behind, but just imagine if someone on the Arizona Cardinals gets suspended and some in a similar situation on the Dallas Cowboys doesn't - or gets a smaller suspension. The talk will start.

I see it with the Vick mess - there is a vocal minority saying that "they are out to get Vick" and "If he was white then none of this would be an issue."

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:28 pm

greggsand wrote:It's more the "Vick Factor" than the dog lovers you seem to enjoy baiting...

Are you dog owner? If so, ask yourself: If this story didn't involve dog fighting and instead involved Mike Vick laundering money through a Caymanian bank, would you even be posting in this thread?

To divorce Americans' undying devotion to their pets, especially dogs, from this current Ron Mexico controversy is just silly.

Take care,
PK

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:42 pm

pk500 wrote:
greggsand wrote:It's more the "Vick Factor" than the dog lovers you seem to enjoy baiting...
Are you dog owner? If so, ask yourself: If this story didn't involve dog fighting and instead involved Mike Vick laundering money through a Caymanian bank, would you even be posting in this thread?

To divorce Americans' undying devotion to their pets, especially dogs, from this current Ron Mexico controversy is just silly.

Take care,
PK

Damn dude, how many times do I have to type it: YES. i think Vick is d***** bag for getting himself in this situation. I thought he was a dumbass for the 'weed at the airport' (non)incident, too!! What part of "this is a story BECAUSE of Vick don't" you get? You never answered my question (again), so I 'll use your example:

If it was Tom Malone (backup punter) laundering money, would it be a story worth posting?? Vick?

Malone: NO Vick: Hell yes.

ps-I am a dog owner. He's 13-0 with 7 kills.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed May 30, 2007 5:11 pm

greggsand wrote:Well, we'll just have to dis-agree. Yeah, people find dogfighting more distgusting than writing a fake check(duh, brilliant!), but everyone loves when STAR athletes break the law. For nfl fans, it's a national pastime. Also, if this was a backup DB or O-lineman for the Seattle, it'd barely be story. It's more the "Vick Factor" than the dog lovers you seem to enjoy baiting...

And where was the question in your above post? It's out there somewhere, along with Amelia Earhart and Jimmy Hoffa.

While there's no question that the Ron Mexico factor plays a major role, Ron Mexico raising Fido to rip the sh*t out of Rover adds a higher level of outrage to the equation.

Take care,
PK

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:01 pm

pk500 wrote:
greggsand wrote:Well, we'll just have to dis-agree. Yeah, people find dogfighting more distgusting than writing a fake check(duh, brilliant!), but everyone loves when STAR athletes break the law. For nfl fans, it's a national pastime. Also, if this was a backup DB or O-lineman for the Seattle, it'd barely be story. It's more the "Vick Factor" than the dog lovers you seem to enjoy baiting...
And where was the question in your above post? It's out there somewhere, along with Amelia Earhart and Jimmy Hoffa.

While there's no question that the Ron Mexico factor plays a major role, Ron Mexico raising Fido to rip the sh*t out of Rover adds a higher level of outrage to the equation.

Take care,
PK

Thank you. Whew...

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:25 pm

greggsand wrote: ps-I am a dog owner. He's 13-0 with 7 kills.

LOL! (unless you weren't kidding...

).

My dog can beat up your dog!

greggsand · Post by **greggsand** » Wed May 30, 2007 6:37 pm

Spooky wrote:
greggsand wrote: ps-I am a dog owner. He's 13-0 with 7 kills.
LOL! (unless you weren't kidding... ).

My dog can beat up your dog!

I doubt my Airedale could roll with Vick's pitbulls. He plays a mean tug-o-war though...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:27 pm

My 14-pound cat ripped an adult squirrel in half yesterday, leaving just the ass, legs, tail and head in our front bushes. He ate the rest. He kills an animal per night during the summer.

I didn't raise him to be that way.

Take care,
PK

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:48 pm

I'm just trying to figure out why dog fighting gets compared to laundering money now...wasn't the forgery enough of a stretch PK? Of course people wouldn't be as outraged as dogs killing each other, than some rich guy cleaning his money or bouncing checks. Is that really a question in your mind?

And that is one hard-core cat you've got.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:54 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:I'm just trying to figure out why dog fighting gets compared to laundering money now...wasn't the forgery enough of a stretch PK? Of course people wouldn't be as outraged as dogs killing each other, than some rich guy cleaning his money or bouncing checks. Is that really a question in your mind?

No. But to some, the fact that it's a felony by Mike Vick apparently is enough. The type of felony is irrelevant, which I find to be a ridiculous proposition.

Of course people are more outraged because Ron Mexico is training Rover is being bred to rip Spot to bits. If it was Ron Mexico passing bad checks, there wouldn't be as much outrage. Anger because he's an NFL star and an apparent world-class thug, yes. But outrage like we're seeing because he's breeding animals to kill? No way.

dbdynsty25 wrote:And that is one hard-core cat you've got.

His kill list has included rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks, birds, mice and moles. Last year, a mother rabbit and her three babies were living in a brush pile that I was ready to burn, unknown to me. As soon as I tossed the gas on there, the mother and three babies scurried out. John was in the yard at the same time -- within 30 minutes, all three bambinos were history.

Can't stop nature, my man. And no, I'm not calling what Ron Mexico does with dogs a part of nature!

John is the friendliest, most mellow cat on Earth when he's not on the hunt. But when he is, he's a ruthless, indiscriminate killer. It's really fascinating to watch him set up some animals, using trees and other stuff as screens, and then just pounce. He's been like that since we got him as a 5-month-old kitten, and he's showing no signs of slowing approaching age 12.

Take care,
PK

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:58 pm

pk500 wrote: His kill list has included rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks, birds, mice and moles. Last year, a mother rabbit and her three babies were living in a brush pile that I was ready to burn, unknown to me. As soon as I tossed the gas on there, the mother and three babies scurried out. John was in the yard at the same time -- within 30 minutes, all three bambinos were history.

How about ponying up a nice bowl of Friskies?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu May 31, 2007 1:19 am

JackB1 wrote:
pk500 wrote: His kill list has included rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks, birds, mice and moles. Last year, a mother rabbit and her three babies were living in a brush pile that I was ready to burn, unknown to me. As soon as I tossed the gas on there, the mother and three babies scurried out. John was in the yard at the same time -- within 30 minutes, all three bambinos were history.
How about ponying up a nice bowl of Friskies?

Ah, that sh*t is molded sawdust. I get the cats either Science Diet or a halfway-decent food.

Take care,
PK

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Thu May 31, 2007 9:53 am

greggsand wrote:
Spooky wrote:
greggsand wrote: ps-I am a dog owner. He's 13-0 with 7 kills.
LOL! (unless you weren't kidding... ).

My dog can beat up your dog!
I doubt my Airedale could roll with Vick's pitbulls. He plays a mean tug-o-war though...

LOL!!!

Your guys' dogs could probably beat up my dog, but the problem is, they'd have to catch him first! (He's a retired racing greyhound)

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:47 am

kevinpars wrote:I see your point Brando, but I just think that the way things are now it leaves way too much up to interpretation. Just look at the opinions on this thread. If PK was the commissioner, the penalty for Vick might be different than if Jack was the commissioner.

Should the NFL act against players who, as PK noted, spread their seed around at will? Then what about Tom Brady? Child out of wedlock - bad for the image of the NFL. And what about T.O.? As he is quick to point out, he isn't out there breaking the law, but he sure has hurt the image of the league just by opening his mouth.

There's always an amount of interpretation at any business. Go to any corporation in America and you will see some people get away with stuff because of their personality or position or earnings.

I do not think the NFL, or any business, should legislate morality. People's opinions on the immorality of having children outside of marriage may differ, but most would probably agree it is not criminal behavior. Same with the kind of antics TO pulled. You may be able to punish showboating or taunting on the field, but you can't punish egotism.

However, what the commish is doing is drawing a line at associating with criminal behavior. He is saying if you are consistently involved in criminal events, even if you're not guilty, you're getting fined and/or suspended. That's a pretty easy line to see. Dog fighting is illegal. Possession of drugs is illegal. Owning unregistered firearms is illegal. Knocking up a supermodel: not illegal. Knocking around a supermodel: illegal.

I think it's pretty clear what the league is doing, and these guys better get with the program, because there's a huge labor pool dying to take their place if they get the boot.