OT: Michael Vick & Dogfighting

[JackB1]

That's one of the things that fascinate me about retired racing greyhounds. They buck that trend. After being treated like sh*t by humans for the first 2-6 years of their lives, they somehow find it in themselves to forgive us and become these wonderful, loving pets.

I'm always amazed seeing a dog who came straight from the track, seeing the fear and hatred in his eyes... then a month or so later seeing the happiness, trust and love in those same eyes... it's just an incredible process to witness.

Nice post Lex. Don't get me started on the evils of greyhound racing!
Another barbaric practice (not the racing per se, but how they are treated afterwards) that needs to come to an end. We like to think we have evolved as a society, but there are still lots of barbaric activities going on out there that we choose to look the other way on.

[kevinpars]

Are those Belted Galloways? There is a farm outside of Camden Maine with a field of Belted Galloways and paintings and prints of them have become something of a cottage industry up there.

I guess what I am saying PK, is get out there with a paint set and start raking in the profits.

[pk500]

But it's no secret that I feel nothing for canines other than police, rescue and seeing-eye dogs.

Take care,
PK

And Ted

True. Ted was on the short list of dogs I've liked. I could use one hand and have digits left over.

Ted was a f*cking LEGEND.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Jack:
As I said, my son was bit in the face by a dog at age 3 for absolutely no reason of his own.

I also have a scar on my right hand from a dog bite from when I was in third grade.

Sorry - I didn't know about that. I can certainly understand your feelings towards dogs. Fact is that people will cheat, lie, kill, deceive and harm you in your lifetime much more than dogs will, but you don't hate all people, do you? Anyway, at least now I can see where you are coming from. If that happened to my son, I would probably have a different view.

Jack:

To be honest, I despised them before Bryce was attacked. That only fueled my intense dislike for canines.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

Are those Belted Galloways? There is a farm outside of Camden Maine with a field of Belted Galloways and paintings and prints of them have become something of a cottage industry up there.

I guess what I am saying PK, is get out there with a paint set and start raking in the profits.

I'll have to ask my friend Jim, who owns the farm. Maybe I should paint them before they become my next hamburger. The ground beef from Jim's farm is DELICIOUS.

Take care,
PK

[Inuyasha]

Jack:
As I said, my son was bit in the face by a dog at age 3 for absolutely no reason of his own.

I also have a scar on my right hand from a dog bite from when I was in third grade.

Sorry - I didn't know about that. I can certainly understand your feelings towards dogs. Fact is that people will cheat, lie, kill, deceive and harm you in your lifetime much more than dogs will, but you don't hate all people, do you? Anyway, at least now I can see where you are coming from. If that happened to my son, I would probably have a different view.

Jack:

To be honest, I despised them before Bryce was attacked. That only fueled my intense dislike for canines.

Take care,
PK

was it a vicious attack or just a bite? My brother when he was a kid got bitten in the leg by a dog, but i can't imagine how fearful I would be if I knew someone getting bitten in the face.

Another negative Dog story:

My father in law owns properties and had to go into one house to collect rent. The renters were very bad and had a pit bull. Long story short, the bit bull attacked my father in law and bit him right in the stomach. He was treated for his injuries but because of some f***ed up law where he lived, they court refused to kill the pit bull.

[sportdan30]

How about this article that provides undeniable proof that dog fighting was going on?!?!?!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/f ... ml?cnn=yes

[JRod]

I'm not going to defend dogs but at the same time there's a difference between being biten by a dog, the dog getting scared and biting someone and a dog maliciously biting someone.

I have a border collie. When I get him from the humane shelter he was 4 mo. old, under fed and had a overly agressive attitide. While he was docile for the most part, when food or his toys were involved he would show his teeth. It took weeks and even years to get that behavoir out of him. Being a border collie he would also nip people's ankles. To the average John Q Public that is biting and here in colorado he could be put down. Luckily he was only around people that had dogs so they understood this was pup behavior.

Now what Paul and others have describe is poorly trained dogs that probably weren't adequately socialized when they were pups. A dog going after runners or bikers should not be allowed. It either needs to be tied up or put in a fenced area. No exceptions.

I live in an suburban part of Colorado and there's one dog a few blocks away that sits untied in the front porch area of a home. It doesn't leave the front porch or the house. It doesn't bark or chase after anyone. I would say this is an exceptionally trained dog but it really should be in the back yard just in case.

Dogs at the end of the day are nothing more than domesticated wolves bred for certain traits. Ya they are man's best friend but only if you respect them by training and loving it.

[pk500]

was it a vicious attack or just a bite? My brother when he was a kid got bitten in the leg by a dog, but i can't imagine how fearful I would be if I knew someone getting bitten in the face.

Is there a difference with a 3-year-old? The kid was bitten in the face, three significant puncture wounds. Still has the scars slightly visible at age 6 despite good work by a plastic surgeon.

We now just joke that he got the scars when he was playing hockey in major Canadian juniors.

Take care,
PK

[JRod]

Vick is claiming that he's the victim of family and friend taking advantage of him. Come on.

[Inuyasha]

was it a vicious attack or just a bite? My brother when he was a kid got bitten in the leg by a dog, but i can't imagine how fearful I would be if I knew someone getting bitten in the face.

Is there a difference with a 3-year-old? The kid was bitten in the face, three significant puncture wounds. Still has the scars slightly visible at age 6 despite good work by a plastic surgeon.

We now just joke that he got the scars when he was playing hockey in major Canadian juniors.

Take care,
PK

wow, plastic surgery, that's serious. I don't know about you, but if that happened to my kid, I probably would have bought a gun and killed the dog And I'm a very mild mannered type of individual.

[rayray00]

...

What's even more ironic is that ESPN.com, the leader of the Vick persecution or prosecution (take your pick), has just devoted a new section of its Web site to mixed martial arts. It's OK for humans to beat the living sh*t out of each other in a sport in which hurting the other guy to the point of submission and injury is the object, but throw canines in "the octagon" doing the same thing, and it's a felony right up there with child porn?

...

It really irritates me when people try to compare MMA to animal fighting of any type...Humans CHOOSE to be in the ring/octagon/field - there's no one forcing them to do what they do. Maybe UFC/MMA isn't your thing, but that certainly doesn't make it comparable to fighting animals. It is no different than watcing boxing or football or even racing hoping to see a big knock out/hit/wreck.

Please at least know something about the sport before you make blanket statements about it - in fact, there's a pretty good article on this very site about it.

-Ray!!!

[pk500]

wow, plastic surgery, that's serious. I don't know about you, but if that happened to my kid, I probably would have bought a gun and killed the dog And I'm a very mild mannered type of individual.

Trust me, I wanted to. But it was my sister-in-law's dog.

The plastic surgery thing is deceptive. He didn't have plastic surgery, but a plastic surgeon did the stitches to minimize scarring. The guy did a very nice job, as the scars aren't very noticeable at all.

As I said, he just looks like a rugged defenseman from Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, under his lip and on one cheek. I doubt they'll be conspicuous at all as a teen or adult. They're pretty much the same color as the rest of his skin.

Again, the plastic surgeon did a terrific job. Plus Bryce was remarkably brave for a 3-year-old and sat still when getting stitched with anesthetic even though he knew a needle and thread were going through his skin.

The two stitches without anesthetic, well, that was another story. Still, a brave lad.

Take care,
PK

[pk500]

It really irritates me when people try to compare MMA to animal fighting of any type...Humans CHOOSE to be in the ring/octagon/field - there's no one forcing them to do what they do. Maybe UFC/MMA isn't your thing, but that certainly doesn't make it comparable to fighting animals. It is no different than watcing boxing or football or even racing hoping to see a big knock out/hit/wreck.

Uh, yes it is, at least for racing and football.

First, anyone who watches racing hoping to see a wreck is a moron. Second, hitting is part of football, not a means to an end. The object of MMA is to kick someone's ass, causing him to submit through punishment. And the variety of punishment permitted is more barbaristic than boxing.

And has DSP become a de facto chapter of the SPCA? I have nothing against animals; I have two cats. But I'm reading a lot of posts here in which animals' rights are being placed on a same level as humans.

Please at least know something about the sport before you make blanket statements about it - in fact, there's a pretty good article on this very site about it.

I've watched it, read about it. What else do I need to know? It's street brawling with structure and rules.

It's also boring as hell compared to boxing, at least to me, especially when one of the fighters is a grappling specialist. Too many extended periods of time with one guy's head in another guy's nuts.

Some of the MMA guys have hard punches, and that's impressive, especially considering the skimpiness of the gloves in UFC. There's absolutely no question that MMA are athletes, very ballsy, skilled athletes.

But I guarantee that if you put most UFC fighters in the ring with a boxer of the same weight class in a straight-up boxing match, the UFC guy would get floored. I sat three rows away from the ring during "Friday Night Fights" in 1999 at Texas Motor Speedway, and the punching power of even lighter-weight boxers is startling. Simply frightening. There's a reason why so many boxers have jello brains in their older years.

A few times I've watched fights on ESPN2 at the same time Spike is showing UFC and gone split-screen. The punching power and technique of the boxers, even up-and-comers on "Friday Night Fights," is superior to that of the UFC guys. The MMA guys' ability to kick and wrestle is interesting, but I'm old school -- I want to see fists settle it.

I just don't get the appeal of MMA at all. I'd much rather watch a boxing match. I know I'm in the minority.

Take care,
PK

[ScoopBrady]

I've watched it, read about it. What else do I need to know? It's street brawling with structure and rules.

C'mon pk, that's a crock of s***. I've watched racing and read about it but if I said racing was just guys driving cars real fast you'd be all over that statement. You're extremely naive if you think MMA is nothing but street brawling with structure and rules.

It's also boring as hell compared to boxing, at least to me, especially when one of the fighters is a grappling specialist. Too many extended periods of time with one guy's head in another guy's nuts.

I used to feel the same way until I really started watching it. The UFC over the weekend featured very little ground work. Only 1 of the 6 matches shown on the PPV featured a submission (which was exciting as hell by the way, if a little premature) and the other 5 were the result of knockouts and 1 decision.

But I guarantee that if you put most UFC fighters in the ring with a boxer of the same weight class in a straight-up boxing match, the UFC guy would get floored.

No s*** Sherlock. And if you opened it up to all types of fighting the boxers would get floored. Why wouldn't boxers, who train exclusively to box, wipe the floor with guys who split their training with a variety of techniques in a boxing match? That's a ridiculous statement. Wouldn't you say that F1 racers would wipe the track with Nascar racers in a F1 event or vice versa?

I also believe that comparing MMA and dog fighting is absurd. The only thing they have in common is your disdain towards them. I'm still trying to find the connection between covering MMA and endorsing dog fighting you're trying to make.

[XXXIV]

WoW!!!.....This is a threadjack of biblical proportions

UFC fighting?....LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pk500]

I also believe that comparing MMA and dog fighting is absurd. The only thing they have in common is your disdain towards them. I'm still trying to find the connection between covering MMA and endorsing dog fighting you're trying to make.

Guess you missed two points I made in earlier posts in this thread:

The MMA guys' ability to kick and wrestle is interesting, but I'm old school -- I want to see fists settle it.

I don't endorse dog fighting, but my tear ducts are Mojave dry when thinking about it, too.

Take care,
PK

[greggsand]

Dog fighting is for pure idiots. To compare it to any sports involving willing humans is pretty dumb, too. I don't see any states making MMA a felony.

Gather the ole family around the computer tonight and show them some dog fighting footage - good luck cleaning-up the kids puke out of the keyboard....

If Vick was involved, I'd love to see the falcons can his ass.

[JackB1]

What's up with the 2 states that still have it legal to have dogfights? I don't understand that at all?

So what if they have no evidence to convict Vick? All they have is that he owned a property where this went on and he has family members that lived there. What does the NFL do at that point? What do you think they should do? Do you think a 1 or 2 game suspension is enough?

[Sudz]

Why should the NFL suspend him? Should be handled in the courts. Not the NFL.

[kevinpars]

Well, Pacman Jones has 10 arrests but only 1 conviction, so I am not sure what criteria the NFL is using.

I think there are 2 states where it is not illegal to be at a dogfight as a spectator. But it is still an illegal activity to be involved in setting up or using your dog - but perhaps not a felony.

[ScoopBrady]

I also believe that comparing MMA and dog fighting is absurd. The only thing they have in common is your disdain towards them. I'm still trying to find the connection between covering MMA and endorsing dog fighting you're trying to make.

Guess you missed two points I made in earlier posts in this thread:

The MMA guys' ability to kick and wrestle is interesting, but I'm old school -- I want to see fists settle it.

I don't endorse dog fighting, but my tear ducts are Mojave dry when thinking about it, too.

Take care,
PK

???

I read those two points but what do they have to do with what I wrote?

You wrote this earlier:

What's even more ironic is that ESPN.com, the leader of the Vick persecution or prosecution (take your pick), has just devoted a new section of its Web site to mixed martial arts. It's OK for humans to beat the living sh*t out of each other in a sport in which hurting the other guy to the point of submission and injury is the object, but throw canines in "the octagon" doing the same thing, and it's a felony right up there with child porn?

I'm saying that I don't get your correlation that ESPN covering MMA means they should be endorsing dog fighting too since they're the same thing. You are equating the two and it's not right. Now if you want to compare dog fighting to gladiators fighting to the death in ancient Rome, by all means do so.

[pk500]

I read those two points but what do they have to do with what I wrote?

They have everything to do with your claim that I'm endorsing dog fighting. I don't endorse it.

I'm saying that I don't get your correlation that ESPN covering MMA means they should be endorsing dog fighting too since they're the same thing. You are equating the two and it's not right. Now if you want to compare dog fighting to gladiators fighting to the death in ancient Rome, by all means do so.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no doubt. As I said, I don't endorse dog fighting. But if given the choice, I'd sure as hell rather see aggressive animals take out their ferocity on each other than on humans.

Unlike most others here, I put animal rights a step lower than human rights. Then again, I shouldn't be surprised at the reaction over this story. We live in a nation that features doggy day care, professional dog-sitters and dog walkers yet has millions of humans without health insurance.

Would we feel the same outrage if Vick was involved in cockfighting instead of dog fighting, or is the anger intensified because "man's best friend" is involved?

Is there this much outrage here over hunting? Poor Bambi has no chance against a shotgun, and often deer stagger for great distances, bleeding, after being shot before falling. At least a pit bull has a chance to defend itself in the ring against another dog.

Bottom line: Is dog fighting a barbaristic practice? Yep. Does it bother me that much? Nope.

There are things in this world that bother me a hell of a lot more, such as the well-being of my neighbor who is serving in Baghdad. The fact that Mike Vick is raising dogs to rip the sh*t out of each other doesn't really tick my personal outrage meter that much, and there's no question that my intense dislike of dogs factors into that. No way I'm going to deny that.

Take care,
PK

[JackB1]

But if given the choice, I'd sure as hell rather see aggressive animals take out their ferocity on each other than on humans.

I think the point you are missing is that they are only aggresive like that because some humans trained and bred them to be that way. Pit bulls ould be no more of a threat to humans than other typical domesticated dogs, if humans didn't interfere.

I also detest hunting. There should be more of a public outcry against it as well. Problem is that "hunting" is so ingrained in our society as something that is "acceptable"....especially in the south. Waiting in a tree perch for a deer to come walking into your view and then shooting one with a rifle in the head, just for your own "sporting pleasure" is a terrible, inhumane act, just like watching 2 dogs fight to the death is. We still have a long way to go to becoming a "civilized" society.

[pk500]

Waiting in a tree perch for a deer to come walking into your view and then shooting one with a rifle in the head, just for your own "sporting pleasure" is a terrible, inhumane act, just like watching 2 dogs fight to the death is. We still have a long way to go to becoming a "civilized" society.

Jack:

That's horsesh*t, plain and simple.

Hunting is a sport and an effective form of animal population control. I live in an area that is teeming with deer. If it wasn't for hunting, many more deer would starve to death, slowly and painfully, through the long, cold winters up here. The available food in the ecosystem doesn't grow when the deer population grows, so the end result is a lot more suffering, starving deer.

Hunting is managed through a state environmental regulatory board, which monitors the deer population and issues a corresponding amount of deer permits. There also are only a certain number of doe that can be shot during the season, ensuring that the female population doesn't decrease too much.

Another positive factor to herd management through hunting is fewer vehicle-animal accidents. Ever hit a deer with your car? I have, and it's not pretty. Hunting helps control the herd and keeps more deer off the highways.

The biggest concern when driving up here from October through early December isn't other cars -- it's a deer jumping out in front of you. I sh*t you not.

By the way, I'm not some Ted Nugent, NRA gun freak. I've never been hunting, and I've never fired a firearm in my life. I enjoy fishing, instead.

But I certainly understand the positive role that hunting plays in the ecosystem, because I've hit a deer, seen countless deer carcasses on the side of the road after vehicle-deer accidents and have seen starving, struggling deer in the woods in my area during the winter.

There's a lot more to hunting than a bunch of yahoos shooting indiscriminately at anything that moves.

This thread has become the great-grandmother of all thread jacks, eh? Sorry for my role in that.

Take care,
PK