Soccer thread

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:34 pm

He hasn't been the best player on a lot of the teams he's played on recently.

So why is he so idolized?

Has he delivered any major titles? Can you imagine if Tiger never won any major tourneys?

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:40 pm

wco81 wrote:He hasn't been the best player on a lot of the teams he's played on recently.

So why is he so idolized?

Has he delivered any major titles? Can you imagine if Tiger never won any major tourneys?

1. He's pretty and charismatic.

2. When in-form, his game is fun to watch. He's not a complete footballer, but he's capable of moments of brilliance...which is enough for much of his fanbase.

3. I personally think much of the derision of Beckham stems from the fact that he's English rather than from the Continent or South America. People with his skill set from those places are revered, and penalized little for their aversion to physical play. In England, where getting stuck in is (for whatever dubious reasons) valued more highly than technical skill, he was always a bit of an outsider. Add in the fact that he was so internationally famous, the whole Posh phenomenon and his laid back personality, and he was a fat, fat target for media, pundits and fans in the UK.

He's obviously passed his sell-by date for top flight football, but that's no reflection on his quality as a player in his prime. And it will be fun to see him, and hopefully more like him soon, in MLS.

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:43 pm

Manchester United won a bunch of major titles with Beckham in the team. Do some research before spouting off rubbish in future.

No sane person ever talked about Beckham the way people talk about Tiger, anyway. Tiger is the best golfer ever to play the game. Beckham was never thought of as the best football player in the world for a single year, let alone all time.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:43 pm

I could not disagree with you more, Naples. First of all, Beckham is no Gretzky. Gretzky was transcendent, he changed the game by changing the record books, and is universally considered the greatest to ever play his sport, in the same leage as Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan. I don't even think there's a good analogy in the NFL for him. Beckham may be a really good player (or maybe he was a really good player), and I'm sure he instantly becomes one of the best if not the best to ever play in MLS (I think it's arguable, frankly, and remains to be seen), but he is not anything like Gretzky, not by any stretch. Pele maybe was in his time that kind of player, and maybe a Ronaldinho or even, dare I say, a C. Ronaldo or something as he comes into his prime if he were to come to MLS now, but Beckham?

Secondly, if you're excited about this season because of Becks, then what are you going to spend time doing for the first half or more of the season? He won't be here until August, and the way MLS schedule-makers work (and the BS they have to deal with in most cities where they don't control their own venues), there's a chance that he may not play in NE, DC, or NY this year at all. Now, i'm sure in this special case, the league will do everything it can to make sure the Galaxy play on the road in the East in the second half of their season, but you still may not get to see Becks in RFK if he's hurt the one time the Gals come, and I would be shocked if there weren't at least one team (maybe RBNY) that plays the Gals in the East in May.

Finally, it comes down to pride. Sure, a lot of players have the vision to see what Becks and his being successful and playing well here may mean to the whole of the league and the future of soccer in the US and so on. But to my mind there are a lot more players who just want to win games, and want to do well against whoever it is in the other shirt. If MLS puts pressure on players not to hurt Becks, that won't bode well for the league. And it won't be taken seriously by most players. If you think Guevara bitches now about crappy refs, wait until Becks gets the call every time someone sneezes on him, while Amado continues to get beat up six ways to Sunday. You know as well as I do that the MLS is full of hacks, from Dema to Curtain to CJ Brown, on and on. You also know, being a DC fan, that it's a viable strategy in this legue to cut down the other team's best player whenever he is near he ball. It is a tough, physical league; this is something that is the biggest surpirse to all the previous Euro players who came over here with the possible exceptions of Nowak and Stoichkov, both known for dishing it out better than they got it. There will be players who won't give a damn about Becks's money but will go in hard anyway, not to try to hurt him, but just because they want to win. I'm not saying there will be a vendetta against Becks, but it won't be a cakewalk for him by any stretch, and I don't see how his performance in the league could ever justify that massive payout. The sale of Galaxy jerseys in Asia may do so, though, whether he plays or not.

Nate Jacqua is probably very excited about the prospects of receiving crosses from Becks come August. But how do you think it will make him feel when he knows he is making about .1% of what Becks is making, while playing for the same team? What about those marginal players fighting for a spot on the first team? It will take a massive effort from Becks to ingratiate himself to his teammates, especially those used to being the star players for the team. Just as good QBs routinely take their O-line out to dinner, Becks better spread some of that stuff around his teammates or else that place could be melt-down city.

Oh, and let's not even talk about the ridiculousness of Lalas being Becks's boss!!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:49 pm

wco81 wrote:He hasn't been the best player on a lot of the teams he's played on recently.

So why is he so idolized?

Has he delivered any major titles? Can you imagine if Tiger never won any major tourneys?

Let's see:

1. He was a star on two of the most visible teams in the world, Manchester United and Real Madrid.

2. He was, and still might be, one of the best crossers of the ball in the world.

3. He's married to a member of the top female pop group in the world from the 90s.

4. He played a big role in ManU's treble in 1999 (Premiership, FA Cup, Champions League winners). ManU also won the Premiership a handful of other times during his tenure there.

5. He's very media savvy.

6. Not to go gay, but let's face it, the guy is good-looking.

7. Becks is the ultimate metrosexual. I read a story a few years back that explains his appeal to every demographic. In summary:
-- Women: He's a good-looking guy.
-- Fashion-plates: Very fashion-conscious.
-- Gay males: Becks is straight, but his fashion sense and stuff like admitting he's worn Posh's undies drive the gay population wild. Gay men love him.
-- Straight males: The dude is rich. The dude has played some quality football. The dude is married to a Spice Girl. That draws attraction from straight guys, either through jealousy or admiration.
-- Football fans: Dude played for his country, captained his country. Despite all the showbiz stuff, dude never is in trouble with the law, dude shows up fit for matches, season. Even when he sucks, he seems to play hard.
-- Everyone else. Whether it's because he's dumber than a box of rocks, good PR or because it's reality, dude seems to be a pretty nice guy. Very humble for a global superstar.

About the only people who HATE Becks are Man City supporters, right DaveT?

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:49 pm

Charismatic?

I saw some Youtube video of Ali G interviewing him and the wife.

Ali G. had Beckham in stitches, could not utter a single intelligible word. Wife tried to parry -- at least she tried.

Must be the Great White Hope thing, in a sea of dazzling Latin and African players.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:51 pm

wco81 wrote:He hasn't been the best player on a lot of the teams he's played on recently.

So why is he so idolized?

Has he delivered any major titles? Can you imagine if Tiger never won any major tourneys?

Are you giving the 99 title back to Bayern? We'll take it!

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:51 pm

wco81 wrote:Charismatic?

I saw some Youtube video of Ali G interviewing him and the wife.

Ali G. had Beckham in stitches, could not utter a single intelligible word. Wife tried to parry -- at least she tried.

Must be the Great White Hope thing, in a sea of dazzling Latin and African players.

He's not articulate, but he's charming in a typical dumb-athlete sort of way.

I saw that interview, btw. Funny as hell! But I don't think that we should judge any man by his demeanor as Sasha Baron Cohen talks about wanting to nail your wife, and asks whether she takes it where the sun don't shine

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:53 pm

wco81 wrote:Must be the Great White Hope thing, in a sea of dazzling Latin and African players.

Uh, not even close. There were not a "sea of dazzling Latin and African players" in the Premier League from 1998-2001, when Becks was at his playing and arguably commercial zenith with Manchester United.

You really should stop making such ridiculous theories without a shred of knowledge.

Take care,
PK

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:57 pm

pk500 wrote:
wco81 wrote:Must be the Great White Hope thing, in a sea of dazzling Latin and African players.
Uh, not even close. There were not a "sea of dazzling Latin and African players" in the Premier League from 1998-2001, when Becks was at his playing and arguably commercial zenith with Manchester United.

You really should stop making such ridiculous theories without a shred of knowledge.

Take care,
PK

I'm talking about TODAY. Why are his image rights or merchandising still big?

1999 was eons ago. England didn't win Euro 2000 or 2004. They didn't do much in WC2002 or 2006. And a lot of the criticism fell on the captain.

What has he done lately?

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:01 pm

What I still don't get, and continues to confound me to this day, is why wco has a Barça avatar!

Just pokin' fun, wco.

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:04 pm

wco81 wrote:I'm talking about TODAY. Why are his image rights or merchandising still big?

Because he's the only good white soccer player in the world, and the public, media and corporations hate non-white soccer players. Happy?

Image rights don't fade away just because a player's no longer at his peak. Michael Jordan's image was still worth tons even when he was playing for the Wizards and missing the playoffs.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:13 pm

How much baseball merchandising was Jordan selling when he was playing baseball?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:17 pm

wco81 wrote:I'm talking about TODAY. Why are his image rights or merchandising still big?

For the same seven reasons I listed above.

wco81 wrote:1999 was eons ago. England didn't win Euro 2000 or 2004. They didn't do much in WC2002 or 2006. And a lot of the criticism fell on the captain.

What has he done lately?

What has Jeff Gordon done lately? He hasn't won a NASCAR title since 2001. What has Dale Earnhardt Jr. ever done? Won one Daytona 500, no titles. Yet they're the two most marketable and popular drivers in NASCAR.

How many tournaments has Michelle Wie won?

How many Super Bowls have Donovan McNabb and Michael Vick won?

When did Brett Favre win his last Super Bowl title?

How many World Series rings does Alex Rodriguez have?

How many scoring titles and Stanley Cups have Sidney Crosby and Alex Ovechkin each won?

Do I need to spell it out any further?

Take care,
PK

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:20 pm

wco81 wrote:How much baseball merchandising was Jordan selling when he was playing baseball?

In Chicago? A TON!

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:21 pm

wco81 wrote:How much baseball merchandising was Jordan selling when he was playing baseball?

A bunch here in the South, no clue about the other areas. Everytime he played in Memphis with Birmingham, the game was a sell out.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:47 pm

Feanor wrote:
Because he's the only good white soccer player in the world, and the public, media and corporations hate non-white soccer players. Happy?

Probably best not to make comments regarding sports about which you appear to know very little. There aren't many who would put Beckham in the top 50 players in Europe at the moment, and the reason that he hasn't come back to the Premiership is that none of the top 4 would want him, and he isn't really interested in gutting it out among the also rans.

As for Zeppo's comments about Beckham being surprised at the MLS being a tough physical league....I take it you don't watch much Premiership or Primera Liga then ?

Judging by the general standard of the MLS players who come over to Europe, his main problem will be finding anyone who can control one of his passes or convert a cross.

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:54 pm

Zeppo:

I don't expect to change your mind, but to respond...

1. Beckham is not the transcendant hockey talent Gretzky was, no arguing there. I don't think that's the point though.

2. Perhaps I mis-spoke, as I will be excited for the season in April with or without Beckham being here. The Beckham signing is more like the cherry on top, new franchise, new TV contract, new signings, Freddy in RSL....really a number of storylines.

3. If pride equals hacking ankles and taking cheapshots, then maybe soccer in the United States is a lot worse off than I think it is. I'm not saying anyone will purposefully let him win or ease up on him, I just meant not take cheap shots because of paycheck envy.

Terry Cooke has noticeably come out and trashed the signing, calling it 'disgraceful,' which to me is very unfortunate. Whether David Beckham makes $250 million in MLS the next 5 years, or decided to make his millions back in the EPL, it has zero effect on Terry Cooke's current salary with the Rapids.

I just have to think there are some players on the other side of the fence. I know if I were on the Galaxy this year, particular a player like Jaqua, I'd be pumped. There will be a buzz in the stadium that most of these guys have never experienced, as well as unprecedented exposure domestically and abroad. Running with the Jaqua example, a guy who is trying to get to Europe, I fail to see how this signing can do anything but boost his career, long term and short term.

And wouldn't guys on teams like KC love having Beckham come to town? Their attendance will probably increase by 300% for the LA game. What are they gonna be thinking "boy this beckham guy has some nerve coming in and ruining our league. I'd much rather have it the old way playing in front of less than 4k fans every night and be totally ignored by the local and national media. These matchups were always much better for everyone when LA had Paulo Nagamura playing central midfield."

Maybe I have no clue what's going in professional athletes heads, but MLS is an attention starved league, and I think the Beckham signing is a great enema. Not everyone will agree, but this promises to be as interesting a season as we've ever seen in MLS, and that can't be a totally bad thing.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:57 pm

davet010 wrote: As for Zeppo's comments about Beckham being surprised at the MLS being a tough physical league....I take it you don't watch much Premiership or Primera Liga then ?

No, you misunderstand me. It's that they expect it to be more of a walk in the park than it turns out to be. It's a league with a lot of hacks, where physically eliminating the few skilled players on your opponent's team is a viable strategy for victory (because there are only a couple such players on each team), and where the referees vary from easily fooled to flat out incompetent and are at best inconsistent.

I'm not saying it's any tougher than the big leagues, just that many when they get here seem surprised how physical it really is. And then the whole summer-time heat thing gets added in.

As to the whole handling passes thing. . . pretty much.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:01 pm

They'll probably protect him right?

Automatic yellow card for taking out Becks too hard, that sort of thing?

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:21 pm

Naples:

I think I am most upset about the money aspect of it. If it were a real top player in his prime coming for that money, I wouldn't mind it as much, but the prevailing sentiment is that while Beckham may well become the best player MLS has ever had when he arrives, he is still being overpaid, at least according to the view that most will have of the deal ($250M for 5 years), whether that perception is valid or not. That's not going to do MLS any favors in terms of the perception overseas or on this continent, I don't think.

I'm not saying guys will be looking to cheap shot him or end his career, but you did bring up Ben Olsen. . . Seriously, though, I find it hard to believe there will be much team cohesion in LA-LA land given this situation. And it will only get worse next year, when Landy-cakes's grandfathering in the DP category is over and they have to pay the piper. They'll probably make a move to somewhere to get a second DP slot like RBNY, but with Lalas in charge, who knows what might happen?

Yes, I'm sure there will be better atmospher at Gals games once Becks gets here, but Becks in the league isn't going to do much for attendance when KC plays Columbus. One of the great advantages of bringing Beckham here was supposed to be that it could attract more good players to come as well, and the codification of the DP slot which has been used by many teams already in the last two or three years, was meant to promise that every team in the league could benefit from a higher quality player than was previously allowed according to the rules (that some but not all teams had to follow). However, since this deal seems to be so out of whack, I don't see many really good players following Beckham unless they get a similarly absurd, UAE-style payout, and that's not going to help the league as a whole, I don't think.

Look, I am looking forward to this season for a ton of reasons as well. Now, I have one more reason, or maybe two: we can beat Beckham's Gals twice! Oh, and Freddy not in DC is a bit of a bitter-sweet thing, as is Alecko being gone from there as well = fewer scum to hate. But let's if RBNY do anything at all with their DP slots. The last thing I want to see is Ronaldo coming here. Despite whatever boost in attendance that will surely create, I don't expect him to take the soccer seriously at all. If he can't be bothered to get in shape for Real Madrid, what will he do in the City that never sleeps? I do expect Beckham to take it seriously, and I hope RBNY gets players who will do so as well, but I don't know who they can get that will provide the buzz without having to shell out the kind of money being attatched to this Beckham deal. And this is RBNY we're talking about, Didi Warbucks and all that, where money is no issue. What does this mean for KC or Columbus or SLC, or for Houston or Dallas for that matter? That's why I'm discouraged.

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:22 pm

wco81 wrote:They'll probably protect him right?

Automatic yellow card for taking out Becks too hard, that sort of thing?

Dwayne Wade treatment!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:28 pm

davet010 wrote:Judging by the general standard of the MLS players who come over to Europe, his main problem will be finding anyone who can control one of his passes or convert a cross.

In an interview with the Beeb today, U.S. soccer journalist Sean Wheelock said the best MLS team is on about the same level as a team in the lower quarter of the Championship or the upper tier of League One.

Seems about right.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:30 pm

wco81 wrote:They'll probably protect him right?

Automatic yellow card for taking out Becks too hard, that sort of thing?

No, it will be a two-minute roughing penalty or a one-and-one from the line. Maybe 15 yards for unBecksmanlike conduct.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:32 pm

Zep:

I think fairly elite players could follow Becks to MLS without getting a Daddy Warbucks deal like Golden Balls, but not at age 31. No way. They'll wait until the absolute twilight of their career, when they'll be stars and elite players in name only.

That won't help the league that much, either.

Take care,
PK