NHL 07 and NHL 2k7 IMPRESSIONS

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:29 am

Well, I rented 2K7 last night to compare the full package against NHL07 but i never got the chance - The dreaded "red rings" showed up and my launch 360 is now dead

Thankfully I bought the MS warranty so I need to call them today to get a new one.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:45 am

That sucks, as I know from experience. Unfortunately, it is a far too common event - or so it seems. My experience with support has been OK - basically like most first line support you are going to be talking to people who know a whole lot less about the box than you do and they will make you do a series of simplistic things - plugging and unplugging, etc. But eventually, they will come around and setup a replacement.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:05 am

vader29 wrote:I may or may not get NHL2k7 sometime down the road but for now this is the most fun I've had with a hockey game in a long time.

I just tried Playmaker's sliders and I'm loving the game even more. Changing the fatigue really helps get more changes and increasing blocked shots makes it even better. I actually held the CPU to 19 shots on All-Star in my last game. I think I had poke check effectiveness too high (to help me) as lowering it seems to make the CPU more aggressive as before they were too good at poke checking and wouldn't hit as much.

Usually with EA hockey and soccer games I have the initial honeymoon period for a day or two (well, with FIFA maybe it is a game or two...LOL)and then quickly find the annoying flaws, but 20 or more games in and I'm enjoying this one more and more each game. I'll probably return my 2K7 rental today or tomorrow for something else.

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:30 am

sportdan30 wrote:Can you imagine if there was only one hockey game with exclusive NHL rights, whether it be NHL '07 or 2K7? A certain percentage of us would be quite disappointed. As it stands, I'm very happy the NHL rejected EA's attempt at exclusivity. Now, we all can be happy.

Regarding the pin point passing of the CPU in 2K7, I don't know necessarily what you really can do other than play on a lower level than All-Star. I'm playing on Pro, because it was becoming ridiculous how many shots the CPU was getting on goal. On Pro, it at least seems like the CPU isn't always as precise with their passes. I don't know though.....I wish they could patch this slider.

After many more games, AP seems perfect for me. I just needed to get used to real life hockey as the AI in 2k7 is much better at working the puck around then in NHL 07, imo. The franchise mode is light years better than NHL 07 and that's where I'll be spending all of my time, so I'm very happy there. From hiring coaches, to practices, to scouting.. it's all there... I like the interface as well as how easy it is to edit lines and your roster.

Seems DS players are split 50/50 on hockey this year, which is a good thing.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:34 am

Well, I managed to rent a copy of NHL 2K7....Color me impressed!

Keep in mind that i have only played 2K Hockey once or twice in the past as I have been predominately a PC Hockey user, so my experience with either company's console versions have been minimal.

I played a couple of games on default Simulation and got my @ss handed to me in a big way. However, the camera angles and overall presentation (players actually breathing out steam is very immersive) in 2K7 is better, IMHO. The skating engine and framerates on 2K7 are miles ahead of 07. I also have noticed how the control of the skaters in 2K7 is much sharper and responsive than the skaters in 07. HUGE difference when you are trying to line up your defender against an oncoming rush.

I do miss Thorne and Clement doing the PBP, but Neale and Co. do an admirable job. I sort of miss the Skill Stick, but I feel like I am missing nothing with 2K7 at this point in time. I do feel that the Skill Stick is going to be improved by both companies as these series mature. EA has done a pretty good job with 07 for the 360, but I was shocked at how much deeper 2K7 actually is.

I have since chosen a Custom difficulty on Pro and slowed the game down to almost 0 on the slider. I have won a few games now. Now that I have a few games under my belt, I think I am going to try Simulation again and see how my familiarity with the controls has improved. One question for those with the game...is there any way to choose Sim, but change the game speed to 0 or almost all the way to the left on the slider?

Lastly, I returned my 07 copy for 2K7 and I am a happy camper so far.

*EDIT*

Another big issue that 2K7 is better at is faceoffs. I feel like 07's faceoffs are too difficult to master and 2K7's are just the right difficulty because I can actually win a few of them whereas in 07 I won maybe 5-6 in 25 games....

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:00 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:Here's a video of a game of NHL 07 I made. The quality isn't the best but there are some pretty nice goals in there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnM6uDDgc1s

Very nice video, Scoop. And it's very revealing to me because if I owned a 360, there would be NO way I would get NHL 07 based on that video.

The CPU AI for the defensemen looks simply AWFUL. In the first period of your video alone, I counted about three or four times where the puck-handler just waltzed past the Wings' defenseman, who stood like a statue or the offspring of the cryogenically frozen Ted Williams. No movement, no attempt at a stick check, no attempt at playing the body, nothing.

And does the CPU defense seal forwards against rebounds at all? I saw a few instances, including your first goal, where two Hawks' forwards were left alone at the edge of the crease, with not a Wings' defensemen within 6 feet.

Basically, where the hell are the defensemen in their zone at any point of this video? They're like the late, great Ray Walston -- "Lost in Space." Or, in another great Walston role, to those who are calling 07 a sim -- at least based on this video -- I say, "What are you people, on DOPE?"

Plus, I saw too many goalies making outlet passes to the defensemen or backchecking forwards at the blue line, which hardly ever happens in the NHL.

Seems like the prevailing analysis here is correct: Those who want a sim should stick with 2K7; those who want a "fun" game that has a novel control system should stick with 07.

People know which side of the fence I'm on. If I ever get a 360, and there's a better chance now after the disappointing Wii launch details, I'd probably stick in the 2K family. It appears EA really needs to tighten the core gameplay AI quite a bit from your video, Scoop, as I trust you're not playing on any kind of arcade setting because I know you're an accurate, sim sports gamer.

Take care,
PK

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:39 pm

DivotMaker wrote:Well, I managed to rent a copy of NHL 2K7....Color me impressed!

Keep in mind that i have only played 2K Hockey once or twice in the past as I have been predominately a PC Hockey user, so my experience with either company's console versions have been minimal.

I played a couple of games on default Simulation and got my @ss handed to me in a big way. However, the camera angles and overall presentation (players actually breathing out steam is very immersive) in 2K7 is better, IMHO. The skating engine and framerates on 2K7 are miles ahead of 07. I also have noticed how the control of the skaters in 2K7 is much sharper and responsive than the skaters in 07. HUGE difference when you are trying to line up your defender against an oncoming rush.

I do miss Thorne and Clement doing the PBP, but Neale and Co. do an admirable job. I sort of miss the Skill Stick, but I feel like I am missing nothing with 2K7 at this point in time. I do feel that the Skill Stick is going to be improved by both companies as these series mature. EA has done a pretty good job with 07 for the 360, but I was shocked at how much deeper 2K7 actually is.

I have since chosen a Custom difficulty on Pro and slowed the game down to almost 0 on the slider. I have won a few games now. Now that I have a few games under my belt, I think I am going to try Simulation again and see how my familiarity with the controls has improved. One question for those with the game...is there any way to choose Sim, but change the game speed to 0 or almost all the way to the left on the slider?

Lastly, I returned my 07 copy for 2K7 and I am a happy camper so far.

*EDIT*

Another big issue that 2K7 is better at is faceoffs. I feel like 07's faceoffs are too difficult to master and 2K7's are just the right difficulty because I can actually win a few of them whereas in 07 I won maybe 5-6 in 25 games....

There is a roster update, don't forget to grab it!

Your thoughts echo mine. I can't say again how much better franchise mode is and with the game on "sim", the gameplay is excellent without many, if any, tweaks at all.

What period lenghts are you guys using?

RallyMonkey · Post by **RallyMonkey** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:41 pm

Seems like the prevailing analysis here is correct: Those who want a sim should stick with 2K7; those who want a "fun" game that has a novel control system should stick with 07.

With 30+ years of playing and coaching experience behind me i disagree with this statement. It should be phrased like this. "Those who want more cycling of the puck in the offensive zone and tighter D coverage ONCE THE PUCK IS ALREADY IN THE ZONE but have no problem with the AI giving up the blue line will enjoy 2K7 more. Those who want the experience of a game that has been innovative but also has FAR better neutral zone play according to the new NHL rules will enjoy NHL."

I'm shocked that no one has talked about the neutral zone play in 07. Players are CONSTANTLY moving to open ice, stretching the ice and looking for a seam to enter the zone. It really is for me the greatest part of this game (not counting the right stick which in and of itself is the greatest sports innovation possibly ever). The AI defenders challenge at the blue all the time which i like, and unlike 2K where speed bursting all the way up ice looking to cross the puck for a one timer is a regular occurence.

As i've said before, i think both games have pluses and minuses, but to simply say one is more "fun" and one is more "hockey" is just plain false.

In fact it could be said the 2K7 is more the old NHL where 07 is more the new NHL.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:51 pm

Rally I already talked about the neutral zone, and the disaster that 07 is in it. Your own AI guys bunch up and get in your way, they do not spread out at all...so yeah, you're right, it's more spread out in 2k7.

As for defensemen in 07...they are atrocious. You may get the guy to step forward at the blue line to face the oncoming rush, but I don't know how many times last night (on All-Star, happy Leebo?) I juked the guy at the blue line and the defensement step up when they get just to the bottom of the circles leaving my two offensive guys to pass the puck around the goalie. The defensive AI is seriously flawed. PK is right about the fact that the defensemen will never clear the front of the net when the shot is taken, leaving a lot of wide open rebounds.

That all said, I'm actually liking the game more than I did initially. I like to give games a chance, but the AI is making it increasingly hard to like 07 more than 2k7. I just don't understand why all of these "sim" guys claim that 07 is better. I guess I'm just stupid because I never played hockey professionaly. Apparently you have to play the game to know that defensemen getting beat on the blue line 95% of the time and then not sealing out the offensive guys from rebounds is how AI should react.

I just don't get it.

RallyMonkey · Post by **RallyMonkey** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:08 pm

Your own AI guys bunch up and get in your way, they do not spread out at all...so yeah, you're right, it's more spread out in 2k7.

They only get in your way if you play this game the way you play 2k7, grab the puck and try and rush up the boards to enter the zone. If you actually play the way the game is meant to which is weave and fill lanes while MOVING the puck, this doesn't happen. I think the defensive AI plays according to that philosophy and thus straight "puck hog" hockey may mean you'll see puck carriers beating defenders who are trying to challenge at the blue. (which is a flaw, admittedly, that they don't adapt at times)

Again, we're blessed to even have this debate with two good games, i'm just tired of people claiming 07 isn't hockey. And i say this having been a 2k guy for the last 5 years too.

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:12 pm

Ooops, dp.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:12 pm

RallyMonkey wrote:With 30+ years of playing and coaching experience behind me i disagree with this statement. It should be phrased like this. "Those who want more cycling of the puck in the offensive zone and tighter D coverage ONCE THE PUCK IS ALREADY IN THE ZONE but have no problem with the AI giving up the blue line will enjoy 2K7 more. Those who want the experience of a game that has been innovative but also has FAR better neutral zone play according to the new NHL rules will enjoy NHL."

Fair enough. But as someone with 34 years of playing experience behind me, I can't stand to see statue defense in front of the crease. I don't care what form of rules the NHL has or is using -- clearing guys from the crease and sealing forwards away from rebounds is a basic element of hockey. The new rules only change the way in which you attempt it, not prevent you from attempting it.

I can tolerate less-than-stellar neutral zone play -- and I'll have to watch Scoop's video again to concentrate on this aspect of play -- if the defensive zone AI is tight. And it appears NHL 07's defensive-zone AI is looser than a Bangkok whore.

Take care,
PK

webdanzer · Post by **webdanzer** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:12 pm

After playing both games, count me in on the side of ‘2k does everything better in gameplay except for the one-on-one battle between shooter and goalie, (not surprisingly what EA chose to show us in their demo.) and overall goalie positioning.’ The most important of the ‘everything else’ to me being the smoothness of the skating and the controls in 2k’s game. It was shocking to me how hard it was to return to EA after playing 2k. More than just frame rate, 2k’s game seems to simply have more frames of animation period.

However, what EA got right to me is exactly the area 2k gets wrong, and it’s IMO it’s an important area for both hockey and hockey videogames. The cpu’s moving the puck around in 2k’s game is a thing of beauty, for sure, but most of the time it’s ultimately worthless, because if the movement serves to isolate a shooter on goalie…so what? That puck is not going in. 2k’s game sucks in regards to the shooter/goalie dynamic. You can certainly score with more than one-timers…there are the garbage goals, rebounds, deflections, goalie screens, wraparounds, etc. But few and far between are the wristers, clean slapshots, and goalie dekes. Even when they are there in 2k, it’s more of the CPU deciding that one should go in, rather than you earning one like you can in EAs game. Shootouts in 2k are just laughable. May as well be a wall up in goal.

However, I don’t know if this one issue is going to offset everything else that IMO 2k does better. The fact that I’m even considering it shows how much 2k needs to address this dynamic in their games. It’s not so much that they need to steal the shot stick control…it’s more that they need to make the one on one goalie vs. shooter dynamic more of the game, make such goals more readily available to the user…but make the user EARN them. This is that WE dynamic that almost everyone wants.

I should mention that the goalie positioning is better in EA too. Nice to see the goalie come out to play angles once in a while.

I rented both; overall, I like both; and I’ll keep playing both; but if I keep missing from one what is in the other as I play each game, I can still see myself taking the seanmac route and not keeping either. I’m not blowing $120+ on hockey games.

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:52 pm

Diablo25 wrote:Well, I rented 2K7 last night to compare the full package against NHL07 but i never got the chance - The dreaded "red rings" showed up and my launch 360 is now dead Thankfully I bought the MS warranty so I need to call them today to get a new one.

Looks like I spoke too soon. I fired the 360 up this morning and its fine now. I guess it just froze up last night.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:58 pm

Diablo25 wrote:
Diablo25 wrote:Well, I rented 2K7 last night to compare the full package against NHL07 but i never got the chance - The dreaded "red rings" showed up and my launch 360 is now dead Thankfully I bought the MS warranty so I need to call them today to get a new one.
Looks like I spoke too soon. I fired the 360 up this morning and its fine now. I guess it just froze up last night.

You better get that thing fixed...it's only a matter of time now.

Diablo25 · Post by **Diablo25** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:00 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
Diablo25 wrote:
Diablo25 wrote:Well, I rented 2K7 last night to compare the full package against NHL07 but i never got the chance - The dreaded "red rings" showed up and my launch 360 is now dead Thankfully I bought the MS warranty so I need to call them today to get a new one.
Looks like I spoke too soon. I fired the 360 up this morning and its fine now. I guess it just froze up last night.
You better get that thing fixed...it's only a matter of time now.

I'm getting that feeling too. Just have to wait it out.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:33 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:on All-Star, happy Leebo?

I'm so proud of you!

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:54 pm

Well I'm seeing some cyclying of the puck in NHL 07. However the AI in 07, shoots without mercy. If they have an open shot they will take it.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:57 pm

MizzouRah wrote: There is a roster update, don't forget to grab it!

Got it yesterday. Do they become default rosters? If not, how can you use the updated rosters offline?

MizzouRah wrote:What period lenghts are you guys using?

Anywhere from 5-7 minutes here...

MizzouRah · Post by **MizzouRah** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:10 pm

DivotMaker wrote:
MizzouRah wrote: There is a roster update, don't forget to grab it!
Got it yesterday. Do they become default rosters? If not, how can you use the updated rosters offline?

MizzouRah wrote:What period lenghts are you guys using?
Anywhere from 5-7 minutes here...

Use the "custom" ones when you start a franchise in "solo" mode.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:16 pm

pk500 wrote:People know which side of the fence I'm on. If I ever get a 360, and there's a better chance now after the disappointing Wii launch details, I'd probably stick in the 2K family. It appears EA really needs to tighten the core gameplay AI quite a bit from your video, Scoop, as I trust you're not playing on any kind of arcade setting because I know you're an accurate, sim sports gamer.

To be fair though, that video was played on Pro difficulty. I've been getting my ass handed to me on All Star. I'll post another video sometime this week on All Star difficulty.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:39 pm

Eager to see it, Scoop.

Thanks,
PK

laurenskye · Post by **laurenskye** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:00 pm

I've been a 2K guy for years and I can't believe some of what I'm hearing. Clearing the front of the net is more important than neutral zone play? Then everyone wanted an NHL hitz type goalie, which EA has.

EA has been critisized every year for being lazy but it is pretty clear that 2K has taken that rout. It is WAY to easy to go end to end, with the defense backing up, which has been in the game for years. The goalies still do this ridiculous head first dive across the crease (totally unrealistic).

I just don't get how 2K gets a free pass on a roster update when EA actually overhauled the entire engine and came up with some pretty cool things. And I am by no means an EA backer.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:03 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:To be fair though, that video was played on Pro difficulty. I've been getting my ass handed to me on All Star. I'll post another video sometime this week on All Star difficulty.

Also, sliders make a pretty big difference in this game, which people really aren't discussing. There is a fairly big difference between default Pro and Playmaker's sliders on All-Star IMO.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:31 pm

The neutral zone in 2K7 is not as passive as I thought inittially. If you change your tactics accordingly as well as your opponents, it's a whole new puck game. The computer is scoring on me on rebounds too other than one time slappers but when they are on a PP, it's great to see the AI working for that open space. Like you Dan, I find PRO is the right setting for me this year, and with some sliders adjustments I have the CPU shoot and score enough on me.

The gameplay on All stars just seem too fast to me.

Scoop, nice video on 07, I am still waiting for a couple of more impressions on people and I may just take the plunge on 07 this week.

I am having a great time on the PSP, and the scoring variety is good enough for me. I had a huge slapshot on a PP where it accidentally HIT one of my own players, and I was wondering why no one was picking up the rebound. Next thing I see my guy slumping badly to the bench as J. Hughson calls the shot. It was great to see!