Madden 07 (Xbox 360) Thread

[wco81]

I'm calling BS on the game engine. Is it all new well it depends on your idea of what is new. If borrowing most AI ideas from the previous version than yes it's new.

What do you expect...it's the SAME developer. So what if they used some of the things from last generation...these guys use what they think is right...why would they change their thinking just because the hardware changed? Now, had it been a completely different developer, I can see your arguement, but since it's the same development studio, I'd expect there to be similarities. It's not BS...it's the nature of the business.

At this point, things like suction-blocking and just the passing/receiving/interception/pass defense interactions probably can't be fixed easily.

It seems like these problems have been around at least 10 of the 15 years or so that Madden has been in existence. We're talking about a span of maybe 2 or 3 generations and all consoles and the PC during that time.

They would not only have to take several years to do a new engine using new technology, they would have to take time to tune things. For instance, take out suction blocking and they may find it's impossible to run (of course, maybe they could fix the OL AI too) without a lot of trial and error of coding/testing cycles.

They would have to throw away all this investment they have not only in the current code but also all the mo-cap infrastructure and content (animations they've accumulated over the years).

So this new engine may have other problems and alienate the current customers, like New Coke did.

Best chance for a new engine is for the exclusive license to lapse and other entrants to come back into the market. But can even VC return and hit the ground running again?

[Gurantsu]

I had fun playing my HB in SS mode last night, although in my 3rd preseason game I got only 1 rushing yard! It must be my agents fault! My hamstring is hurt! I fell off my stationalry bike!

Actually as soon as the ball was snapped the DL was in may face before I got the ball tucked away, I mean they were there FAST. This was against the Dolphins. Didn't play any of the second half at all except for one extra point attempt when they threw me on the line.

Then it was time for a little franchise action, so I popped in NFL 2K5. Man, that game still holds up, even when played right after the new Madden. For me, Madden is fun for the SS mode, but thats all I'll be playing on it. Both games have their strengths, I'm just glad I held onto my Xbox so I have the choice of playing both.

[Brando70]

I played a couple more games last night, just messing around with All-Pro default and 5 minute quarters, and the game grew quite a bit on me. I think there is an intial shock after playing NCAA because I expected more polish from Madden, and in some ways NCAA is more polished.

I fired a Bears (me) at Chargers game and lost 16-7. This game showed one very good CPU improvement -- playcalling. Phillip Rivers was an efficient 9-14 (with NO interceptions), while LT ran 21 times for 90 yards, and only broke one run over 10 yards. There was a very nice play where Rivers dumped the ball to Lorenzon Neal, and after I missed a tackle, Antonio Gates made a great block downfield to break a short pass open for a TD. There was also just one turnover, and interception by me.

This game also highlighted one thing EA needs -- better on-field personnel management. Gates should be in most 4-wide formations instead of their 4th string WR. 2k alleviated this somewhat with playbooks, but I wish the management AI would "learn" to put its best players on the field in these situations.

Second game I tried the Cardinals at home against the Saints and won 9-0. Again, only one turnover, a Brees pass I picked off. I couldn't run worth a damn with the crap Arizona line, but was able to get the ball to Boldin and Fitzgerald. NO could run with Deuce but their passing never got into gear.

I think, like NCAA, the on-field gameplay works pretty well. I like the CPU playcalling. They will run and keep running even when behind. The faster speed and better controls make it play a little better than NCAA 360. I was relieved after my first turnover-fest to play two games with only one turnover.

I disagree with JRod about running plays being blown up in the backfield. If you run to the outside too much or the defense has a mismatch, yes, you'll see some runs for losses. But most runs between tackles for me have been around the -1 to 3 yard range, which is pretty normal. I find running a good challenge, where getting 4-5 yards is not easy and pulling off a 10-yard run requires good blocking and smart running. It's easily the best running I've seen in an EA game.

A couple things concern me. First, I'm having a really hard time getting QB pressure with my front four. Anyone else getting many sacks?

The other thing is that I'm seeing almost no penalties on the default settings, aside from false starts and encroachment. I haven't tweaked any sliders yet so I'll wait and see what happens.

[AJColossal]

Brando-

Sacks concern me too, but in the two games I played, I got 3 against the Jets, and 1 against Manning. I figured that was pretty good considering he's protected very well.

Kind of concerned about All-Pro QB AI. Peyton Manning forced a lot of balls and made a lot of dumb reads and went something like 11-23 against a Broncos secondary. I did play a game against Bulger and he looked pretty sharp though.

I like the feel of All-Pro but I think some slider tweakage is in order (my favorite ) for the CPU passing game. Don't know for sure yet.

Then again, maybe it's time to consider that AI quarterbacking in video games might not be where I want it, and I should just play real people.

[JRod]

I disagree with JRod about running plays being blown up in the backfield. If you run to the outside too much or the defense has a mismatch, yes, you'll see some runs for losses. But most runs between tackles for me have been around the -1 to 3 yard range, which is pretty normal. I find running a good challenge, where getting 4-5 yards is not easy and pulling off a 10-yard run requires good blocking and smart running. It's easily the best running I've seen in an EA game.

Look at some play-by-play from the NFL and you won't see it as much as it occurs in Madden. Most of it happens because your o-line sometimes refuses to block.

[reeche]

Well I tried the game yesterday.....Since I'm not exactly impartial take my impressions with a grain a salt but all I could really think about as I was playing this was that somebody is getting scammed. I don't mean the consumer specifically. More on the studio side. Somewhere the money allocated to Madden is being secretly pocketed by someone because it doesn't feel like it's going into the dev cycle.


The presentation is absolutely terrible imo. I was actually stunned at how bad it was. Very repitious for even the little bit that is there.

The actual gameplay still feels roughly the same to me. The general complaints I've had since they switched to their PS2 engine in 2001 still exist to me. If you like it then that's great I suppose but it still boggles my mind that they haven't addressed at least some of this issues. Getting skinny and interacting with blockers and defensive player still doesn't feel right. There are many many things like this in the game I just don't understand.

Grpahically the game is alright but it's not exactly blowing me away either. The helmets look very nice.....Other than that everything is sort of odd to me. The Depth of Field effect they use is both crappy looking and actually doesn't work that way in real life. The player models all look a bit to beefy and chunky to my eye, etc.

Essentially I sort of felt like I went to see some blockbuster movie where your told the movie has a huge budget of X dollars but that doesn't really reflect itself on screen.

I'm sure the franchise mode and such is as good as ever which is really their strength but the actual game seems stuck in perpetual slow time. I'll pass. Exclusivity deals suck for the consumer and that goes for every sport including baseball.

[Kazuya]

Well I tried the game yesterday.....Since I'm not exactly impartial take my impressions with a grain a salt but all I could really think about as I was playing this was that somebody is getting scammed. I don't mean the consumer specifically. More on the studio side. Somewhere the money allocated to Madden is being secretly pocketed by someone because it doesn't feel like it's going into the dev cycle.

That's just the thing, these yearly sports games don't *have* dev cycles. I think it was the Gamespot review that pointed out this game actually had significantly *less* than a year as it was a 360 launch game. So not surprisingly, I agree with AJColossal in that this game plays like a slightly tweaked version of Madden 06. It's not a terrible game, but it sure is disappointing. I think everybody remembers the difference between Maddens 2001 and 2002 (the one with Culpepper on the cover) and thought we'd get a similar deal.

Far worse than the exclusive license is the curse of the yearly sports game. It simply isn't possible to develop and test an entirely new game in a year... it can't be done. Yet for some reason, we accept it when it comes to sports games. If M$ came out with Halo '07 and it was the exact same game as Halo 2 except the enemies animated better and were smarter, and there was a few bonus modes of play, there would be an outrage if it were a $60 game. But no, we accept it for sports games. How many times have you read in a review, "this game builds an impressive base for the future"? It's basically become standard thinking that these games are going to evolve over time, with us paying for them all the while.

The game looks fairly nice, but does anybody really think the present engine (boy I hate that word, it's such a misnomer for this type of game) is going to hold up for 6-7 years?? At some point, SOMEBODY is going to have to sit down and take the 2-3 years necessary to actually create a true next-gen football experience. Since 2Ksports doesn't have anything else to do and that is about how much time the license has left, maybe they should be the ones.

[Kazuya]

Here's what I can't stand about Madden and NCAA this year. Way too many plays in the backfield broken up. It's a rare thing to see a a play broken up in the backfield. Sacks are one thing but having feast or famine run plays is just silly.

Major slider tweaks are needed to get the run game anywhere near realistic. The running game is borderline broken because of how fast the defense gets in the backfield.

We've noticed it a bit too... I call it "Tecmo Bowl" football for obvious reasons...

[Brando70]

I disagree with JRod about running plays being blown up in the backfield. If you run to the outside too much or the defense has a mismatch, yes, you'll see some runs for losses. But most runs between tackles for me have been around the -1 to 3 yard range, which is pretty normal. I find running a good challenge, where getting 4-5 yards is not easy and pulling off a 10-yard run requires good blocking and smart running. It's easily the best running I've seen in an EA game.

Look at some play-by-play from the NFL and you won't see it as much as it occurs in Madden. Most of it happens because your o-line sometimes refuses to block.

Well, I've only played a few games, but I'm not seeing a lot of backfield blowups on running plays. If I see a problem to the side I'm running, I move guys over or flip the play. I'm finding that as long as I have a body on a defender, they try to block. They may fail, but I don't see the turnstile lineman that I've seen in old Maddens. The blocking is much better than I have ever seen it in Madden, and I played 2005 and 2006 quite a bit (about 7-8 franchise seasons in each).

The gameplay in general feels different to me than old XBox (granted, I haven't played the current gen 07). Do I see some of the same stuff? Sure. But the game feels quite a bit different.

I agree with reeche about the presentation. Easily the most disappointing part for me. I turned off the announcer but it's still pretty bland. The graphics, too, are not that great -- much better than current gen, but compared to a game like GRAW, they are very underwhelming.

The two things I miss right now more than anything are the accelerated clock and fatigue. The clock would really help because otherwise I have to either play really short quarters and skip the huddle animations (which messes up the playclock factor), or watch the animations over and over. I am hoping that fatigue gets patched soon so I can start a franchise.

[reeche]

That's just the thing, these yearly sports games don't *have* dev cycles. I think it was the Gamespot review that pointed out this game actually had significantly *less* than a year as it was a 360 launch game. So not surprisingly, I agree with AJColossal in that this game plays like a slightly tweaked version of Madden 06. It's not a terrible game, but it sure is disappointing. I think everybody remembers the difference between Maddens 2001 and 2002 (the one with Culpepper on the cover) and thought we'd get a similar deal.

I hear ya and believe me I understand the pitfalls of a yearly dev cycle....

The problem for me is more a mental puzzle in that other sports game do sometimes improve both in a year and over a number of years. Madden which has the most dev dollars thrown at it of any sports game on the market by a large margin should be the leader just on that fact alone. I get why college versions of games don't really explode from year to year or titles that don't sell a ton. They get less resources. But this isn't a problem with Madden or it shouldn't be at least. They get a s*** load of resources. They split their teams between next gen and old gen sku for goodness sakes.....The only thing I can possibly account for this is that they are spread too thinly by the need to create all these football products now but I'm guessing that isn't the case either...

[Slumberland]

Playing Superstar mode on All-Madden, I'm definitely seeing a crazy amount of running plays broken up in the backfield, combined with some HORRID playcalling on the CPU coach's part. Maybe that's part of the game... the coach has got a grudge against me and is setting me up to fail, calling running plays to the outside on third and long when there are clearly two defenders waiting for me with no blockers even lined up against them. Fun!

The cutscenes are so lame, and tough to skip. I have to let it run, or try to run in its choppy fashion, for a second or two before I can skip it. And where did the idea come from that silent, lingering shots of stadium details somehow passes for presentation? That's a problem in both NCAA & Madden. I do agree that NCAA looks sharper and a bit better on the whole, due in no small part to the overused blur in Madden.

Man, I wish the snapshot feature was available in Madden. You'd think it would be a priority, being able to take pictures of your Superstar counterpart in moments of glory. I broke an 87-yard touchdown run last night with my created halfback, and even though I knew there was no snapshot function, I still paused the game in this weird fit of wishful thinking, perhaps hoping that I would slip into an alternate universe where it would suddenly show up as an option in the pause menu.

I know I sound negative, but I just need to get some online games in. Every year I have to come to terms with the fact that single player football always frustrates me, with 2K5 being the sole, occasional exception.

[Slumberland]

I did read a post over OS that attempted to track the general reception of each Madden in succession on the current gen systems and then line that up with the responses to the two next-gen releases thus far... the basic gist being that it wasn't until Madden 2003, or three years in, that a 'complete' game (your definition may vary) was released. That three year cycle seems pretty common. EA peaked with MVP 2005 in their third year, even Sony's MLB, IMO, didn't really nail it until this year, after a promising release two years ago. So I'm willing to just chill and enjoy this Madden for what it is, with an eye on the larger picture of sports game dev cycles.

[GTHobbes]

The truth of the matter is, EA/Tiburon should have begun making the necessary changes 5 or 6 years ago, when they first saw what 2k was doing on the Dreamcast. Instead, they often pretended that 2k simply did not exist ("you get what you pay for" was their initial response to 2k's $19.99 price point).

I think most people thought that they would've sucked it up and did what was necessary when they claimed to have built the new engine from the ground up. Clearly, that didn't happen and the only excuse that still makes sense to me is a lack of talent. That, or the vision at the top is so far off from what the rest of us are looking for that I'm not sure every new engine in the world could ever make a bit of difference.

[TRI]

When EA said new engine two years ago, they really meant new graphics engine not a new game play engine. The graphics are improved, but the same problems from last generation are still there like suction blocking, absence of gang tackling, poor DB AI, unrealistic tackling animations, poor physics etc. It is really last generation game play with better graphics.

[Gurantsu]

Well, in my opinion what they should do, now that we have the marketplace, is to release next years roster upgrade for the game, maybe add a few small things like a couple new stadiums or uniforms, fix any bugs (that are actually able to be fixed in this fashon), and sell it for $20 as a download (or on disk for those without Live, plus shipping of course!). They'll spend less time and money trying to develop and market a full game EVERY year, and can spend that extra manpower and cash on making a completely new version for the year after that, thus giving them more development time for it.

I mean, we joke about each year being a glorified roster update, but many times that is close to the truth, and the past 2 games on the 360 seem like we are all paying to be beta testers. (Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the SS mode!)

But maybe they can just can all the media crap, put out an update, and then for Madden 09 really wow the gaming world with a true next-gen football game.

[JRod]

But MVP was an all new game. Okay maybe it borrowed some part from Triple Play but that was an all-new game.

Madden is not all new. Its for a new system but its not like they had made Blitz the last 7 years and are now developing Madden.


Mr. Obvious statement coming in 3...2...1.

Madden is showing clear signs of having no competition. There's little new in this game compared to NFL 2k. In the year's since NFL 2k was killed what innovations has EA introduced.

After reading Bill's blog on this, 2k Sports and therefore most american game companies are run by suits that will not take chances. We all know EA will not stick it's neck out but there's no excuse for other companies not to introduce a generic football game.

The business model is Winning Eleven. Anyone remember that game when it was International Superstar Soccer. Let's take NFL 2k8, first they would have to cater to the hardcore sports gaming fan. Madden gamers may or may not pick up the game. Casual sports fans wouldn't buy it like they do madden. Following WE, if you get the gameplay right, allow the community to mod the game and listen to the fans, NFL 2kX would make money. WE did not outsell FIFA in the beginning it was a soccer title geared solely at the Japanese market but it was so good that Euro and US markets were importing it. In this country it was a word of mouth game that picked up a lot of steam.

But because game companies are scared to take on EA and the NFL, no one is willing to risk making a sim oriented generic football game. The market is there but the companies are not.

[wco81]

There's too much inertia to do something so radical and risky.

As long as the current product sells well, why risk something new which may or may not be better?

The suits will never let them scrap everything they have -- which is a huge moneymaker -- and do something completely new, with no guarantees of better sales.

It's going to take a big decline in sales for them to go in a completely new direction.

I believe many of the producers and developers when they say they care about realism and how they're football fans. But at the end of the day, they have to deliver a product for people to pay another $50-60 each year.

They do that by adding features, not fixing long-term bugs or starting over. So that is why this year, we get the highlight stick which makes the game play more like NFL Blitz or Tecmo Bowl at times.

Warrick Dunn takes a simple flat pass and then 3 defenders converge and there's contact. All of a sudden, in the lower right-hand corner, there's a "Break Tackle" graphic and just like that, the three defenders are flat on their back and Dunn is running away for a long run after catch TD.

There were no blockers, no pancake blocks. Just 180-pound Warrick flattending 3 bigger guys. Now the Madden team guys know this is not realistic but they had to deliver some new feature which could be put as a marketing blurb on the back of the box.

[JRod]

WCO:

You are 100% correct, the suits aren't going to make a new coke. However my whole post is that other companies will not even try to gain a market share here.

WE is the example of a game gaining popularity without uber advertising, without adding new "truck sticks" or SS star mode, without really any frills. The gameplay is just so addictive the game sold.

[hellbent]

There's too much inertia to do something so radical and risky.

As long as the current product sells well, why risk something new which may or may not be better?

The suits will never let them scrap everything they have -- which is a huge moneymaker -- and do something completely new, with no guarantees of better sales.

It's going to take a big decline in sales for them to go in a completely new direction.

I believe many of the producers and developers when they say they care about realism and how they're football fans. But at the end of the day, they have to deliver a product for people to pay another $50-60 each year.

They do that by adding features, not fixing long-term bugs or starting over. So that is why this year, we get the highlight stick which makes the game play more like NFL Blitz or Tecmo Bowl at times.

wco took the words right out of my....post. My thoughts exactly. There is no financial motivation for EA to fundamentally change the system, so why start now? They trashed Triple Play once the sales figures and (poor) name recognition forced them to do so. If Johnny CasualGamer actually stopped buying Madden every year due to the lack of innovation and slant towards arcade gameplay, you bet they'd make massive changes. Sh*t, I'm a hardcore football gamer and I still buy Madden every year, in spite of its annual list of gripes. EA does a good enough job every year of straddling the line between good and mediocre with Madden to guarantee their sales for the next season. I don't disagree that competition might help, but until Madden's sales actually slump I highly doubt we'll ever see radical gameplay changes, even if they are an improvement.

Ah well, at least they optimized the game on PC this year. Haven't gotten a full game in yet, unfortunately, but it runs buttery smooth and looks great. Gameplay unfortunately seems a little slanted towards the offensive side of the football (surprise!) but I've got to spend some more time with it to know for sure. If it continues to play well under extended playtime, I'm not seeing a need to mess with the 360 version, given the mixed bag it seems to be thus far.

[Kazuya]

Well, in my opinion what they should do, now that we have the marketplace, is to release next years roster upgrade for the game, maybe add a few small things like a couple new stadiums or uniforms, fix any bugs (that are actually able to be fixed in this fashon), and sell it for $20 as a download (or on disk for those without Live, plus shipping of course!). They'll spend less time and money trying to develop and market a full game EVERY year, and can spend that extra manpower and cash on making a completely new version for the year after that, thus giving them more development time for it.

I mean, we joke about each year being a glorified roster update, but many times that is close to the truth, and the past 2 games on the 360 seem like we are all paying to be beta testers. (Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the SS mode!)

But maybe they can just can all the media crap, put out an update, and then for Madden 09 really wow the gaming world with a true next-gen football game.

Co-signed...

However, that will never happen. It's too much of a money-grab and by now they are probably dependent on the that annual $50 per loyal Maddenite.

Again, like I said if any other genre of games tried this it would be ugly. Even the remix games of certain genres are discounted brand new, and quickly fall to $20. Metal Gear Solid: Subsistence for example. Someone please tell me how the yearly Madden is any different from a Solid Snake Remix. They fix the camera, tweak the gameplay, throw in some new modes and/or difficulties, maybe put in some commentary video and voila! It's *exactly* what they do to Madden.. except it costs $20-30 less...

Another funny thing is that the one genre where this goes on the most is the one where it's probably the most unnecessary. I mean it's football... the game is ALWAYS the same. 11 on 11, an oblong football, 100 yard field... do they have to re-release the *whole* game every year? I mean if you play a 2 year old RTS game it will feel OLD... because there are so many innovations in these games. The fact that people are still playing old ass NFL 2K5 rather than buying the new game should tell you all you need to know about how much football evolves. Hell, I know some people (admittedly they are cheap bastards) who still play Madden 2001/02 for similar reasons ("the rules of the game and way it's played are still the same").

[wco81]

I don't follow WE that closely but don't they have some licensed clubs and players?

Especially for the Japanese league? I think WE was able to survive for a long time on domestic sales. Of course the editable capabilities allowed others to enjoy the game as well.

A generic NFL game may gain some traction but it might be a lot tougher road than WE took.

[ScoopBrady]

Wow, this thread got way off course. Don't we have this exact conversation every year after Madden releases?

I started my Superstar career as a QB and I'm having a blast with it. It seems much better than last years SS mode. I really like how you just play as that position. I have a couple of questions about the mode though.

1. How long am I supposed to be practicing for? Does the practice ever end on its or do I just have to quit after a certain number of plays? I've only had 2 practices so far but each time I practiced until my Influence meter was maxed out (usually +10), quit out of practice, had to go back into practice, practiced until my Influence meter was maxed out again (another +10), and then quit. Is this how it's supposed to work?

2. Do you guys let the cpu control the rest of the team? That's what I did in my first preseason game (11 of 23 for 187 yards 1TD and 1 INT) and I thought it was really cool. I didn't understand why I still had to pick a role for every offensive drive when Frye came in and played the second half though. Any idea why?

I'm really loving SS mode so far. I also like the regular gameplay as well. I was one of the few who liked Madden 06 (360) for the gameplay and I think they've built upon that this year. It seems more refined. I really like the passing game and running game. The mini-games are cool too. I really need to brush up on playing as a db.

[Danimal]

1. How long am I supposed to be practicing for? Does the practice ever end on its or do I just have to quit after a certain number of plays? I've only had 2 practices so far but each time I practiced until my Influence meter was maxed out (usually +10), quit out of practice, had to go back into practice, practiced until my Influence meter was maxed out again (another +10), and then quit. Is this how it's supposed to work?

Scoop on the PC practice ends after 25 reps i believe. But I get a pop up that it ended and that I can continue practicing if i want. I haven't spent much time with the 360 SS mode.

2. Do you guys let the cpu control the rest of the team? That's what I did in my first preseason game (11 of 23 for 187 yards 1TD and 1 INT) and I thought it was really cool. I didn't understand why I still had to pick a role for every offensive drive when Frye came in and played the second half though. Any idea why?

Because it is a bad design decession. There are several in SS mode, but on the whole it is an nteresting concept. But i can't deal with the camera angles so i have given up on it.

[sportdan30]

I'm with you Scoop. I'm enjoying the game a lot and haven't even experienced SS mode. I'm looking forward to toying around with it some this weekend.

Personally, I like this year's Madden better than NCAA '07. I think the presentation in both games is rather blah and incomplete. If I have one major complaint, it's that the presentation still seems to be years behind 2K5. That's definitely disappointing. I do however enjoy the on field chatter, so I just turn off the commentary.

Other than that, I'm taking the game for what it is. A freakin' videogame. Sorry guys, but the Madden franchise caters to the following; casual fans such as myself, the college friends who come home from the bars and just want to kick back and have some fun talking smack, the high schoolers who get bored of driving up and down one strip of road and head back home to play their 360, and elementary school age kids who like to mess around with the "play now" feature with their buddies or their dad. 2K5 teased us with a more sim experience, one in which the majority of us preferred. Like it or not, we're in the minority and why should EA mess with success? I think they tried to appease the sim gamers with NFL Head Coach, but failed pretty miserably.

I sincerely hope one day there will once again be a competitor to the Madden franchise, so EA will feel as though they simple can't rest on their laurels. Until then, we'll continue to over analyze every little thing about the game, instead of just taking and enjoying it for what it is. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not as bad as some of you make it out to be.

[btmmayor]

I think the PC version is better than the 360 version. In game saves, mini camp, no stuttering, deeper, and of course, modding capabilities. I have both versions, and if I could only play one, it would be the PC version.

In game saves? Sold!!

I have the 360 version, but if the PC version is comparable to it, the ability to save a game in progress will switch me over. This is a huge feature for me and I can't believe its not available on the 360 version (for the second year in a row now).