NCAA 07 XBox 360 Thread

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:39 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
Brando70 wrote:
Leebo33 wrote:It's all in our heads then.
I didn't want to suggest that it was.
I needed a smiley or a

I do think it is in my head sometimes as I get furious as the movement of momentum makes no sense sometimes. Getting a FG on the opening drive, especially when you should/could have scored a TD should not max out your momentum.

That I agree with. Getting stopped in the redzone and having to kick a FG, should boost your momentum,but not max it out.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:50 pm

Plus, momentum should be tied into all kinds of things: the time of the game, the type of game (a bowl game, a rivalry game). I think it should increase more slowly in the first half and then more rapidly in the last two quarters.

Plus, it should not stay maxxed out if nothing happens for a while after a big play. Let's say you pick off a pass. You should get a 2-3 bar boost, but then lose a bar if you fail to score after it.

In a lot of ways, I almost think it should be like your wanted status in Grand Theft Auto. It should take a lot to max out the meter.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:17 pm

I agree 100% with you guys on momentum...Its wcompletely wacked and has far too much an impact on a game especially on Heisman level. If you get it maxed on you on H lvl it becomes like an avalanche as your entire team becomes useless.

It needs to be reeled in more than a little.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:36 pm

I just saw my first non-blocked CPU missed FG kick? Must be a bug.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:49 pm

Brando70 wrote:Plus, momentum should be tied into all kinds of things: the time of the game, the type of game (a bowl game, a rivalry game). I think it should increase more slowly in the first half and then more rapidly in the last two quarters.

Plus, it should not stay maxxed out if nothing happens for a while after a big play. Let's say you pick off a pass. You should get a 2-3 bar boost, but then lose a bar if you fail to score after it.

In a lot of ways, I almost think it should be like your wanted status in Grand Theft Auto. It should take a lot to max out the meter.

Agreed on all counts.

vader29 · Post by **vader29** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:28 pm

JRod wrote:I just saw my first non-blocked CPU missed FG kick? Must be a bug.

I had the cpu miss one by hitting the right goal post against me once. Of course I haven't seen a lot of field goal attempts against me by the cpu as they usually just score touchdowns.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:43 pm

OK let me ask you guys this, then. If you put a piece of black paper tape across the momentum meter, do you believe you could accurately predict where it is, in whose favor and how many bars, based upon the results of the plays on the field?

Like I said, I don't play much against the CPU (and if I do it is on AA, not Heisman), and I haven't noticed that the meter itself has had a great effect, if any, on what happens in the game. I may be in denial, yes, or just not very observant, true. But to me, it doesn't have the kind of clear effect that the HFA or the composure thing did in the old-gen versions. I mean, with HFA, the whole screen is shaking, the controller is vibrating, and with the composure thing it was very clear guys would lose attribute numbers. In fact, I am surprised that the buffing/nerfing of attributes based on performance is not in the 360 game, even to a small degree (i liked that feature, though I thought it went too far).

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:57 pm

Zeppo wrote:OK let me ask you guys this, then. If you put a piece of black paper tape across the momentum meter, do you believe you could accurately predict where it is, in whose favor and how many bars, based upon the results of the plays on the field?

Like I said, I don't play much against the CPU (and if I do it is on AA, not Heisman), and I haven't noticed that the meter itself has had a great effect, if any, on what happens in the game. I may be in denial, yes, or just not very observant, true. ).

You mentioned this to me last week, and after days of online games and dynasty games, I don't get it. There is an enormous effect from the meter.

The biggest areas I see it are in drops, broken tackles and special teams.

It's difficult to test, but the team without the momentum, especially if the opponent has it pegged, will absolutely break more tackles than they were without. I'm not talking open-field moves, but between the tackles gang tackling where guys just bounce off. I also see many wide open receivers drop passes where there is no pressure on WR or QB when the momentum is favoring the defense. Finally on special teams, the team with the momentum will see many more pancaked defenders. And I think most of us agree that trying jukes or right stick moves without the momentum is living very dangerously.

Ever since we talked, Zep, I've been trying to convince myself that what I was seeing wasn't the meter. That it was just coincidence or difference in the players approach etc. But the harder I've looked, the more it seems to me that momentum is influencing these areas.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:01 pm

Best example of the mo thing is the tourney game I had to replay Colorado st vs Florida St because the game froze at the half.

In the first attempt I was up 30-2 at the half. The momentum meter went all the way up after my first TD,The avalanche started
and FSU could not get out of their own way. INT after INT followed by fumbles. It was just so freaking phony...

In the game that counted. The mo meter never went above two bars and Colrado st only won 17-10...

I am sure it was the meter that changed the games. Neither one of us did anything different.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:03 pm

Brando70 wrote:Plus, momentum should be tied into all kinds of things: the time of the game, the type of game (a bowl game, a rivalry game). I think it should increase more slowly in the first half and then more rapidly in the last two quarters.

Plus, it should not stay maxxed out if nothing happens for a while after a big play. Let's say you pick off a pass. You should get a 2-3 bar boost, but then lose a bar if you fail to score after it.

In a lot of ways, I almost think it should be like your wanted status in Grand Theft Auto. It should take a lot to max out the meter.

I've said this before about College Hoops etc, but momentum shouldn't be modeled at all! I don't care if Texas scores on its two opening possessions. Adrian Peterson is not slower by 5% on the third possession!

Moreover, momentum is inherent in any contest. If I'm playing WE against someone and they are taking it to me, I start to play differently, press harder etc. They play more casually, freer and easier. It's just natural, and there's no need for a meter to directly change the attributes of the players we're controlling.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:17 pm

RobVarak wrote:
Brando70 wrote:Plus, momentum should be tied into all kinds of things: the time of the game, the type of game (a bowl game, a rivalry game). I think it should increase more slowly in the first half and then more rapidly in the last two quarters.

Plus, it should not stay maxxed out if nothing happens for a while after a big play. Let's say you pick off a pass. You should get a 2-3 bar boost, but then lose a bar if you fail to score after it.

In a lot of ways, I almost think it should be like your wanted status in Grand Theft Auto. It should take a lot to max out the meter.
I've said this before about College Hoops etc, but momentum shouldn't be modeled at all! I don't care if Texas scores on its two opening possessions. Adrian Peterson is not slower by 5% on the third possession!

Moreover, momentum is inherent in any contest. If I'm playing WE against someone and they are taking it to me, I start to play differently, press harder etc. They play more casually, freer and easier. It's just natural, and there's no need for a meter to directly change the attributes of the players we're controlling.

Good points, Rob, but that only applies to the human player in a one-player game. I would like to have some psychological effect modeled in. It's as much a part of sports as fatigue.

The problem is probably the meter itself. I would prefer not to see it. Likewise, the effect should not be ridiculous. A slight plus or minus to some attributes like pass accuracy, tackling, catching, etc. I would also offset it with awareness ratings -- players with a higher awareness could shake it off and stay focused.

The implementation of things like momentum and clutch ratings hasn't been very good, but I still think there's a lot of potential there. In a close game, I like the idea of having to consider a player's composure.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:07 pm

Brando70 wrote:
Good points, Rob, but that only applies to the human player in a one-player game. I would like to have some psychological effect modeled in. It's as much a part of sports as fatigue.

It's an enormous part of sports, but athletes' reactions to pressure are as varied as athletes themselves. It's blunt to the point of being too oversimplified to simply say that because things are going their way, Team A is now granted a % bonus, or Team B a % penalty.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:26 pm

Well, Rob, I guess that's the response I was looking for. You guys have got me convinced. And I have to agree that the way it shifts around makes no sense at all and seems very clumsy and counter intuitive. Why does it stay full even if no one scores for an entire quarter and half? Shouldn't it whittle away constantly until boosted by another big play or a score? Boo momentum. Hooray Beer!

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:45 pm

Zeppo wrote: Boo momentum. Hooray Beer!

Thats my boy!

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:39 pm

Well I guess I'm used to momentum from playing WE. WE has quite possibly some of the worst comeback logic to make you sick. The reason is that their comeback logic is hidden in the small things. This isn't Madden where a 75 pass will be completed.

Call it comeback logic or call it momentum. In WE, I like it to a degree it can be a love/hate relationship. I love how you have to clamp down and play smart football. I hate the fact that sometimes there will be a cheap score.

In NCAA this has the same feel for me. I play on AA with my sliders, Heisman cheats IMHO. I have to clamp down on the defense or I will get beat. I have to call smart plays or I'm toast. As for the drops and strange turnovers...those come but it doesn't feel like cheating in EA games.

Even if the CPU has all the momentum, I can usually rally back but that doesn't I win. Hell in my last game I came from a 37 point deficit to lose by 3 in a wild wild shootout.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:12 pm

Maybe my run of oddities and lack of enjoyment was caused by playing with a bad team against some bad or mediocre teams.

I just played a random game on the schedule (me as Minnesota (#23) vs. Michigan #15) and had a *great* game! Each team fumbled once, but the only interception for either team was on the last play of the game. I won 27-24 including a long drive for a TD against total momentum to re-gain a 10 point lead and a long time-consuming drive near the end to all but preserve the win against 4 momentum bars. Stats were totally believable and the game was a lot of fun.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:21 pm

Leebo33 wrote:Maybe my run of oddities and lack of enjoyment was caused by playing with a bad team against some bad or mediocre teams.

I just played a random game on the schedule (me as Minnesota (#23) vs. Michigan #15) and had a *great* game! Each team fumbled once, but the only interception for either team was on the last play of the game. I won 27-24 including a long drive for a TD against total momentum to re-gain a 10 point lead and a long time-consuming drive near the end to all but preserve the win against 4 momentum bars. Stats were totally believable and the game was a lot of fun.

When I get down in momentum, I do what I would do if I were still coaching. Play it close to the vest, call conservative plays try to string some plays together, weather the storm, and get back on track.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:46 pm

bkrich83 wrote:
Leebo33 wrote:Maybe my run of oddities and lack of enjoyment was caused by playing with a bad team against some bad or mediocre teams.

I just played a random game on the schedule (me as Minnesota (#23) vs. Michigan #15) and had a *great* game! Each team fumbled once, but the only interception for either team was on the last play of the game. I won 27-24 including a long drive for a TD against total momentum to re-gain a 10 point lead and a long time-consuming drive near the end to all but preserve the win against 4 momentum bars. Stats were totally believable and the game was a lot of fun.
When I get down in momentum, I do what I would do if I were still coaching. Play it close to the vest, call conservative plays try to string some plays together, weather the storm, and get back on track.

That's exactly what I do too. I noticed when I tried to get back into the game right away I'd consistently get further and further behind.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:56 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:
bkrich83 wrote:
When I get down in momentum, I do what I would do if I were still coaching. Play it close to the vest, call conservative plays try to string some plays together, weather the storm, and get back on track.
That's exactly what I do too. I noticed when I tried to get back into the game right away I'd consistently get further and further behind.

Which in my experience is the way it works in real life. You get behind a little bit, get flustered ,get out of your gameplan and the whole thing snow balls on you.

The game does replicate that. I am not sure if the Momentum logic is realisitc or not, but I do see the effect they were going for. If things aren't going your way, you can't try to get it all back at once. More times than naught things will go from bad to worse.

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:47 pm

I just wish it was an option, and not a forced gameplay mechanic.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:49 pm

Bill_Abner wrote:I just wish it was an option, and not a forced gameplay mechanic.

I wish that, and I wish, I understood the actual gameplay mechanic. That said if I play it smart or the way I would IRL, it seems to play out within the realm of reality At least my reality.

I haven't read your blog, or your breakdown of the game, but for my money, it plays a pretty good game of football.

Bill_Abner · Post by **Bill_Abner** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:01 pm

I don't have a problem when my team loses momentum, it's when the CPU loses momentum and goes into panic mode and throws 3 INTs in a half...that's my beef w/ it. The thing goes up and down like a yo-yo, too, for the most bizarro reasons. I just don't like the idea of trying to quantify something like momentum in a game. I've never liked it regardless of the sport because it's just too hard to do.

As for NCAA 360 vs Xbox, I'm not getting into that spat here. I had my say on the blog and I see no reason to get into it here as well. When I stopped posting at OS it was because of this sorta thing and I'm old enough to learn lessons from that. heh

Simply put, offline I prefer the Xbox version mainly for AI reasons and because I think the gameplay is much more refined on that system. Online I prefer the 360. I get enjoyment out of both for varying reasons.

As for the save game thing in the other thread..God yes. Also when will EA have a"sim to end" feature? When it's 37-7 at the half of an OSU / Kent State game..isn't that enough?

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:11 pm

Bill_Abner wrote:I don't have a problem when my team loses momentum, it's when the CPU loses momentum and goes into panic mode and throws 3 INTs in a half...that's my beef w/ it. The thing goes up and down like a yo-yo, too, for the most bizarro reasons. I just don't like the idea of trying to quantify something like momentum in a game. I've never liked it regardless of the sport because it's just too hard to do.

As for NCAA 360 vs Xbox, I'm not getting into that spat here. I had my say on the blog and I see no reason to get into it here as well. When I stopped posting at OS it was because of this sorta thing and I'm old enough to learn lessons from that. heh

Simply put, offline I prefer the Xbox version mainly for AI reasons and because I think the gameplay is much more refined on that system. Online I prefer the 360. I get enjoyment out of both for varying reasons.

As for the save game thing in the other thread..God yes. Also when will EA have a"sim to end" feature? When it's 37-7 at the half of an OSU / Kent State game..isn't that enough?

I haven't had the problem with the CPU throwing picks when the momentum goes down. That being said, I am Stanford in my dynasty, so it's rare I have momentum, and I have relatively few playmakers on defense. So I am not doubting the issue, I am just not seeing it, probably due to the team I am controlling and my opponents.

As far as AI for XBOX vs. 360, I am not going to get in to that either. I actually feel the opposite for many reasons. Different strokes I would imagine.

Good call on Sim to End. It'd be a nice way to kill the pain of playing out a blowout. 2k had it, but the logic for it was screwy. I'd want it to be a little more refined than it was for 2k.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:38 am

Figures. I complain about a game and then start having my best games ever. In my last game the CPU blocked one of my punts and missed a 37 yard FG wide left! I'm now convinced the stuff I was seeing was due to bad teams. When I play with teams from the Big 10, Big 12, etc. the games are fantastic!

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:02 pm

Leebo33 wrote:Figures. I complain about a game and then start having my best games ever. In my last game the CPU blocked one of my punts and missed a 37 yard FG wide left! I'm now convinced the stuff I was seeing was due to bad teams. When I play with teams from the Big 10, Big 12, etc. the games are fantastic!

Sounds like your momemtum meter just shifted

I wish I still had my PS2 and XBox, just so I could take the Pepsi challenge.