Apparently Real Madrid have just paid 30m Euros for Cannavaro and Emerson from Juventus.
Nice to see one dodgy G14 team bailing out another. Emerson is so far over the hill he's back on level ground, and while Cannavaro had a great world cup, he is 32.
I'd say that's at least double what any sensible observer would have paid for them.
Soccer thread
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I thought Simmons piece was entertaining. I usually like his stuff though, and DaveT is spot on in saying that it's written by someone whose soccer knowledge is limited to internet searches. Either way, Simmons is a comedy writer who uses sports as material rather being a real sports writer, so it was all in good fun IMO.
Funny too, because last year there was a thread on here about picking EPL teams to support and Tottenham was my choice as well. Simmons criteria for picking a team based on things like bandwagon potential and club size was almost exactly my sentiments. Unfortunately, I never really got into my new found fandom of Spurs last year. I also like to pull for the Americans in the EPL as well, and not only does Spurs not have any Americans, Jol kicked my man Keller out to the curb almost as soon as he took over.
I'll see what happens this year with squads. If there's one thing I've learned from watching the EPL the last few years is that you can't arbitrarily pick a team and then all of a sudden care. It takes time, if it ever reallys happens.
Funny too, because last year there was a thread on here about picking EPL teams to support and Tottenham was my choice as well. Simmons criteria for picking a team based on things like bandwagon potential and club size was almost exactly my sentiments. Unfortunately, I never really got into my new found fandom of Spurs last year. I also like to pull for the Americans in the EPL as well, and not only does Spurs not have any Americans, Jol kicked my man Keller out to the curb almost as soon as he took over.
I'll see what happens this year with squads. If there's one thing I've learned from watching the EPL the last few years is that you can't arbitrarily pick a team and then all of a sudden care. It takes time, if it ever reallys happens.
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sfz_T-car
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DaveT: I suppose the G14 engage in corrupt business practices that can only be imagined by God-fearing Americans, but why would RMCF pay Juve above market rates for the two acquistions?
Naples: I'm with you re: Spurs. I was scoping them out after the Dons ended badly, even going so far as attending a friendly at White Hart Lane in 2002. But while they have a few redeeming qualities, I just can't bring myself to commit to THFC. There's nothing really lovable about them.
If there was someone holding a gun to my head demanding I choose a club, I suppose I'd have to go with Charlton, although the Iain Dowie appointment isn't making it easy for me.
Naples: I'm with you re: Spurs. I was scoping them out after the Dons ended badly, even going so far as attending a friendly at White Hart Lane in 2002. But while they have a few redeeming qualities, I just can't bring myself to commit to THFC. There's nothing really lovable about them.
If there was someone holding a gun to my head demanding I choose a club, I suppose I'd have to go with Charlton, although the Iain Dowie appointment isn't making it easy for me.
Chelsea sounds kind of like the Yankees of the EPL. Plus they have some expensive tacky tour of their stadium.
Tottenham is more or less central London isn't it?
Where is Arsenal?
That list of revenues show all 3 London clubs being among the top-grossing. So London is kind of the center of the club football universe isn't it?
Tottenham is more or less central London isn't it?
Where is Arsenal?
That list of revenues show all 3 London clubs being among the top-grossing. So London is kind of the center of the club football universe isn't it?
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davet010
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SfZ
Unfortunately, I'm writing this at work, so I can't access the book about Italian football that I have been reading (called 'Calcio') for the correct term, but I think it is to do with an accounting trick called 'addizione' - apologies to any Italian speakers for the incorrect spelling.
Basically, it works like this.
Sell a player - income hits your P&L straight away.
Buy a player - you write his purchase price off over the contract life, which may explain why 32yr olds are getting 3 yr contracts.
This was a distinct short-term accounting wheeze which was used in Serie A in the early 00's.
As to why, well Real have got themselves a class defender (Cannavaro), and I suspect Juventus made it conditional on them taking the makeweight (Emerson - great player in his day, but not now). Juventus now also owe Real a favour...
As for the G14, my distaste for them is that they are an unelected and unofficial clique of the self-styled 'top clubs', who are constantly seeking to amend UEFA and FIFA rules for their own commercial benefit. Some examples...
Champs League - they don't like being knocked out early and losing revenue, hence tedious group games and seedings. Then they realise that there are too many games and the fans hate them, so the format is constantly tinkered with to reintroduce a straight knock out after the first group phase, and they still moan because the 'wrong' teams get through (a la Porto v Monaco in 2003/4)
UEFA Cup - this once prestigious trophy was devalued by incorporating the Cup Winners Cup into it as well, and then further devalued by allowing the 'best losers' from the Chumps League to enter halfway through to compensate them for missing out on more CL money. Because some of the G14 threatened to boycott it (Bayern Munich threw a hissy fit one year when they were knocked out after one round), a bizarre group stage has been introduced.
And yet the G14 are always twining that their players play too many games ? I wonder whose fault that is ?
Their chief target is international soccer - they hate it. They are currently pulling the strings behind the scenes on a legal attempt by a Belgian club to sue the national FA of some African nation for the fact that a player was injured on international duty. What they really want is for national federations to pay them significant sums to release players for international tournaments.
So that'll be the end of the World Cup then, as only the richer nations will be able to afford that, or else use entirely non-G14 players.
I used to think that the G14 were holding a gun to the head of UEFA with the unspoken threat of a breakaway European Club league. More recently, however, I think they are realising that everyone else is actually hoping that they do so, which will return domestic leagues to a state of increased competition.
Wco
Arsenal are in North London. They used to play at Highbury, but are moving to a brand new stadium this season. Chelsea are like the Yankees, except run by a Russian money-launderer rather than George Steinbrenner. Keep an eye on them, because when he pulls out, the crash will be loud.
Unfortunately, I'm writing this at work, so I can't access the book about Italian football that I have been reading (called 'Calcio') for the correct term, but I think it is to do with an accounting trick called 'addizione' - apologies to any Italian speakers for the incorrect spelling.
Basically, it works like this.
Sell a player - income hits your P&L straight away.
Buy a player - you write his purchase price off over the contract life, which may explain why 32yr olds are getting 3 yr contracts.
This was a distinct short-term accounting wheeze which was used in Serie A in the early 00's.
As to why, well Real have got themselves a class defender (Cannavaro), and I suspect Juventus made it conditional on them taking the makeweight (Emerson - great player in his day, but not now). Juventus now also owe Real a favour...
As for the G14, my distaste for them is that they are an unelected and unofficial clique of the self-styled 'top clubs', who are constantly seeking to amend UEFA and FIFA rules for their own commercial benefit. Some examples...
Champs League - they don't like being knocked out early and losing revenue, hence tedious group games and seedings. Then they realise that there are too many games and the fans hate them, so the format is constantly tinkered with to reintroduce a straight knock out after the first group phase, and they still moan because the 'wrong' teams get through (a la Porto v Monaco in 2003/4)
UEFA Cup - this once prestigious trophy was devalued by incorporating the Cup Winners Cup into it as well, and then further devalued by allowing the 'best losers' from the Chumps League to enter halfway through to compensate them for missing out on more CL money. Because some of the G14 threatened to boycott it (Bayern Munich threw a hissy fit one year when they were knocked out after one round), a bizarre group stage has been introduced.
And yet the G14 are always twining that their players play too many games ? I wonder whose fault that is ?
Their chief target is international soccer - they hate it. They are currently pulling the strings behind the scenes on a legal attempt by a Belgian club to sue the national FA of some African nation for the fact that a player was injured on international duty. What they really want is for national federations to pay them significant sums to release players for international tournaments.
So that'll be the end of the World Cup then, as only the richer nations will be able to afford that, or else use entirely non-G14 players.
I used to think that the G14 were holding a gun to the head of UEFA with the unspoken threat of a breakaway European Club league. More recently, however, I think they are realising that everyone else is actually hoping that they do so, which will return domestic leagues to a state of increased competition.
Wco
Arsenal are in North London. They used to play at Highbury, but are moving to a brand new stadium this season. Chelsea are like the Yankees, except run by a Russian money-launderer rather than George Steinbrenner. Keep an eye on them, because when he pulls out, the crash will be loud.
"The players come from all over the world, the money from deep underneath the Persian Gulf, but, as another, older City poster campaign put it, this is their city. They may now exist in the global spotlight, but they intend to keep it that way."
Has the G14 actually launched? I didn't think they had but it sounds like they may have a lot of influence on how the leagues and international competition are run.
Are the G14 clubs saying they will pull out of their existing leagues and not play CL? Or will the G14 games be another layer of competition on top of the existing league games and CL games?
How many games typically does a club play each year, how many additional games can CL add and how many games would the G14 clubs play?
Sounds like the more games they play, the more revenues. But balance that with more potential for injury to expensive players.
Are the G14 clubs saying they will pull out of their existing leagues and not play CL? Or will the G14 games be another layer of competition on top of the existing league games and CL games?
How many games typically does a club play each year, how many additional games can CL add and how many games would the G14 clubs play?
Sounds like the more games they play, the more revenues. But balance that with more potential for injury to expensive players.
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davet010
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G14
How many of that lot are truely 'big clubs' is difficult to say.
Three French sides ? (err, OK - including Marseilles who have had one french title and one Champs League title stripped for matchfixing in the Bernard Tapie era of the early 90s)
Dortmund and Leverkusen ? Maybe around 2000.
Juventus and AC ? Now found guilty of matchfixing and expelled from the Champs League for 2006/07
Ajax and PSV ? Medium sized fish, very small pond.
The G14 aren't proposing setting up a rival competition of their own, which would be expensive and lead to their players being ineligible for any UEFA or FIFA sanctioned competition. What they do want is for all competitions and legal agreements to be slanted towards their benefit (viz the continually changing Champs League)
As for number of games, let us take, say, Steven Gerrard. I'll assume that Liverpool enter the CL at the group stage, and that Liverpool get to the final of every tournament. I'll assume about 6 internationals as well.
League - 38
FA Cup - 6
League Cup - 6
Champs League - 11 (I think)
Internationals - 6
Making a grand total of 67 games, as a guess.
More games does largely equal more revenue, particularly in the CL.
As I mentioned before, I think most fans supporting clubs other than G14 ones would be happy to see them disappear up their own orifice and go back to a situation where you can't predict the top 4 of the Premiership before the season starts.
How many of that lot are truely 'big clubs' is difficult to say.
Three French sides ? (err, OK - including Marseilles who have had one french title and one Champs League title stripped for matchfixing in the Bernard Tapie era of the early 90s)
Dortmund and Leverkusen ? Maybe around 2000.
Juventus and AC ? Now found guilty of matchfixing and expelled from the Champs League for 2006/07
Ajax and PSV ? Medium sized fish, very small pond.
The G14 aren't proposing setting up a rival competition of their own, which would be expensive and lead to their players being ineligible for any UEFA or FIFA sanctioned competition. What they do want is for all competitions and legal agreements to be slanted towards their benefit (viz the continually changing Champs League)
As for number of games, let us take, say, Steven Gerrard. I'll assume that Liverpool enter the CL at the group stage, and that Liverpool get to the final of every tournament. I'll assume about 6 internationals as well.
League - 38
FA Cup - 6
League Cup - 6
Champs League - 11 (I think)
Internationals - 6
Making a grand total of 67 games, as a guess.
More games does largely equal more revenue, particularly in the CL.
As I mentioned before, I think most fans supporting clubs other than G14 ones would be happy to see them disappear up their own orifice and go back to a situation where you can't predict the top 4 of the Premiership before the season starts.
"The players come from all over the world, the money from deep underneath the Persian Gulf, but, as another, older City poster campaign put it, this is their city. They may now exist in the global spotlight, but they intend to keep it that way."
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sfz_T-car
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I realize you're a professional accountant Dave and I'm still at Sophomore level but I'm still confused re: the accounting trick. Even if the buyer amortizes the tramsfer amount over the life of the contract, there's already been a cash transaction between the buyer and seller. Whatever advantages there would be, they'd be on the balance sheet rather than cash flow. I suppose this could be useful for tax purposes but an enterprise the size of Real Madrid must have larger loopholes than depreciation of player bonuses and transfer fees.
Packaging Emerson with Cannavaro wouldn't raise the eyebrows of many US sports fans. NBA transactions almost always have dead weight players to balance the trade for salary cap purposes.
I think there's a relatively limited number of buyers for Juve's top talents. The players & agents would expect a big club with Champions League eligibility, even if the G14 didn't exist. There are also only a few teams with the cash to play the transfer game at this level. Vieira isn't likely to land with Watford, no matter how soft the market. Watford can't afford him and Patrick wouldn't be interested in going there.
Packaging Emerson with Cannavaro wouldn't raise the eyebrows of many US sports fans. NBA transactions almost always have dead weight players to balance the trade for salary cap purposes.
I think there's a relatively limited number of buyers for Juve's top talents. The players & agents would expect a big club with Champions League eligibility, even if the G14 didn't exist. There are also only a few teams with the cash to play the transfer game at this level. Vieira isn't likely to land with Watford, no matter how soft the market. Watford can't afford him and Patrick wouldn't be interested in going there.
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davet010
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Professional ? I must pass this to my boss 
To be fair, I had to write out the example in the 'Calcio' book.
Here's how it works, I think.
Juventus sell 2 players to RM for 25m euros - that all hits their P&L this year (less writing off whatever was left on their original purchase price)
RM write off the 25m purchase over the contract life (like a fixed asset)
As you correctly point out, the benefit is P&L/BS not cash flow - but those are the figures that analysts look at, in the main. Two or three years from now, there will be a large transaction in the opposite direction.
In Italy, this spiralled out of control, as poor players were traded for vastly inflated sums of money. One player apparently was on the books of 5 different Serie A teams in one season. It then got to the point where it was noticeably stupid, and clubs couldn't keep up with the mounting effects of inflation. It's best viewed as a form of overstating income by exploiting a differential between the treatment of sales and purchases.
I'm sure there is a relatively interesting college dissertation in there somewhere
Blimey, I'm now working during my surfing time as well
I'll get back to the work of fiction known as period 11's management accounts to cheer myself up.
To be fair, I had to write out the example in the 'Calcio' book.
Here's how it works, I think.
Juventus sell 2 players to RM for 25m euros - that all hits their P&L this year (less writing off whatever was left on their original purchase price)
RM write off the 25m purchase over the contract life (like a fixed asset)
As you correctly point out, the benefit is P&L/BS not cash flow - but those are the figures that analysts look at, in the main. Two or three years from now, there will be a large transaction in the opposite direction.
In Italy, this spiralled out of control, as poor players were traded for vastly inflated sums of money. One player apparently was on the books of 5 different Serie A teams in one season. It then got to the point where it was noticeably stupid, and clubs couldn't keep up with the mounting effects of inflation. It's best viewed as a form of overstating income by exploiting a differential between the treatment of sales and purchases.
I'm sure there is a relatively interesting college dissertation in there somewhere
Blimey, I'm now working during my surfing time as well
I'll get back to the work of fiction known as period 11's management accounts to cheer myself up."The players come from all over the world, the money from deep underneath the Persian Gulf, but, as another, older City poster campaign put it, this is their city. They may now exist in the global spotlight, but they intend to keep it that way."
Okay, so I watched the WC and have had kind of the same reaction as Simmons. I'd like to get more into the EPL. So what's the best way? Where are the games shown? (I've got DirectTV.) And would I forever be a jackass if I was partial to Newcastle because I love the beer? (Reason 2: I dig the kind of Cubs vibe they have going on.)Naples39 wrote:I thought Simmons piece was entertaining. I usually like his stuff though, and DaveT is spot on in saying that it's written by someone whose soccer knowledge is limited to internet searches. Either way, Simmons is a comedy writer who uses sports as material rather being a real sports writer, so it was all in good fun IMO.
Funny too, because last year there was a thread on here about picking EPL teams to support and Tottenham was my choice as well. Simmons criteria for picking a team based on things like bandwagon potential and club size was almost exactly my sentiments. Unfortunately, I never really got into my new found fandom of Spurs last year. I also like to pull for the Americans in the EPL as well, and not only does Spurs not have any Americans, Jol kicked my man Keller out to the curb almost as soon as he took over.
I'll see what happens this year with squads. If there's one thing I've learned from watching the EPL the last few years is that you can't arbitrarily pick a team and then all of a sudden care. It takes time, if it ever reallys happens.
Is this really a topic for a different thread? I don't want to interupt serious football talk with soccer 101.
Fox Soccer Channel carries EPL games and shows a bunch live and on same-day delay. Their home-grown Canadian show, Fox Sports World Report, covers the EPL extensively as well as giving a good review of all the European action. FSC also shows games from other European leagues, but I'm pretty sure they show a lot more EPL than anything else. Somewhere or other there was a thread with a conversation about FSC's weekend schedule for the upcoming season.Brando70 wrote: Okay, so I watched the WC and have had kind of the same reaction as Simmons. I'd like to get more into the EPL. So what's the best way? Where are the games shown? (I've got DirectTV.) And would I forever be a jackass if I was partial to Newcastle because I love the beer? (Reason 2: I dig the kind of Cubs vibe they have going on.)
Is this really a topic for a different thread? I don't want to interupt serious football talk with soccer 101.
Other than that you have the Champions League shown on ESPN2 on Tuesdays and/or Wednesdays, but here in the States we only get one game a week or maybe one game a day (Tue/Wed), whereas ESPN International shows all the games (I'm pretty sure they do). ESPN Deportes may well show more CL games than ESPN2, I don't know. And then there's also Setanta Sports which is a complete mystery to me, but may show some European games (I seem to remember they were showing Spanish League games last season).
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sfz_T-car
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http://www.soccertv.com has a lot of good info.
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davet010
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Zeppo
Setanta may be showing more EPL games soon. The European COmmission prevented the Premier League selling rights to live games to only one broadcaster, so Setanta have one of the six packages. I can't remember, however, whether that new deal starts in 06/07 or 07/08.
That Simmons piece, nonsensical as it was, did say one true thing
"Oh, you don't want to pick them. You're born into rooting for Manchester City. You would never want to arbitrarily pick them".
Setanta may be showing more EPL games soon. The European COmmission prevented the Premier League selling rights to live games to only one broadcaster, so Setanta have one of the six packages. I can't remember, however, whether that new deal starts in 06/07 or 07/08.
That Simmons piece, nonsensical as it was, did say one true thing
"Oh, you don't want to pick them. You're born into rooting for Manchester City. You would never want to arbitrarily pick them".
"The players come from all over the world, the money from deep underneath the Persian Gulf, but, as another, older City poster campaign put it, this is their city. They may now exist in the global spotlight, but they intend to keep it that way."
I think it is a brilliant piece even if DaveT thinks it is rubbish.sfz_T-car wrote:Page 2 Simmons piece about choosing which Premiership team to support:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/060719
It's a decent read but he focuses on the usual suspects. I won't post a spoiler on his final decision, but I thought it was pretty predictable given his selection criteria going in.
But then what do I know? I went through a similar selection process in the early 90s and I picked Wimbledon.
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sfz_T-car
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If Wednesday were in the Premiership, they wouldn't have made Sportsguy's first cut.fsquid wrote:sfz_T-car wrote:Page 2 Simmons piece about choosing which Premiership team to support:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/060719
It's a decent read but he focuses on the usual suspects. I won't post a spoiler on his final decision, but I thought it was pretty predictable given his selection criteria going in.
But then what do I know? I went through a similar selection process in the early 90s and I picked Wimbledon.
I think it is a brilliant piece even if DaveT thinks it is rubbish.
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davet010
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Let's see - Squid thinks it's great, and Sheff Utd came bottom with a pithy insult...coincidence ?
"The players come from all over the world, the money from deep underneath the Persian Gulf, but, as another, older City poster campaign put it, this is their city. They may now exist in the global spotlight, but they intend to keep it that way."
I agree. If Wendesday somehow get promoted this year, they will be odd-on favorites to go back down. No doubt. I still love my Sturrock!sfz_T-car wrote:If Wednesday were in the Premiership, they wouldn't have made Sportsguy's first cut.fsquid wrote:sfz_T-car wrote:Page 2 Simmons piece about choosing which Premiership team to support:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/060719
It's a decent read but he focuses on the usual suspects. I won't post a spoiler on his final decision, but I thought it was pretty predictable given his selection criteria going in.
But then what do I know? I went through a similar selection process in the early 90s and I picked Wimbledon.
I think it is a brilliant piece even if DaveT thinks it is rubbish.
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sfz_T-car
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Sportsguy has a large and devoted following so an article discussing the lore of various Premiership teams is a lot of exposure for soccer in the US.
But one thing Simmons does better than 99.9% of sportwriters is convey what it means to be a fan. It is a collective experience that occurs over time. It's a lot more involved spending $70 on a replica jersey and checking the results in the Sunday papers.
It'll be interesting to see how this evolves. If Sportsguy starts dropping Dmitar Berbatov references and scams his editors into a trip to WHL, it'll be impressive. But it'll also be surprising. It's one of the deadest weeks on the sports calendar, and this was two pages of non-Sox copy. Soccer fans should enjoy the attention while it lasts.
But one thing Simmons does better than 99.9% of sportwriters is convey what it means to be a fan. It is a collective experience that occurs over time. It's a lot more involved spending $70 on a replica jersey and checking the results in the Sunday papers.
It'll be interesting to see how this evolves. If Sportsguy starts dropping Dmitar Berbatov references and scams his editors into a trip to WHL, it'll be impressive. But it'll also be surprising. It's one of the deadest weeks on the sports calendar, and this was two pages of non-Sox copy. Soccer fans should enjoy the attention while it lasts.
My mom works for FedEx and is working on a project over in Frankfurt right now. Anyways, the government official that is working with them heard that I supported the team and had family ties over there. The official was able to give her an authentic jersey from this year's cup. It is one of the "extras" that was available in case an extra was needed (blood, ripping, giving it away after the match, etc.). No name or number as they didn't end up "needing" it!!!
I'm psyched!!! My wife called me from work with the news!!
I'm psyched!!! My wife called me from work with the news!!
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AJColossal
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Materozzi banned 2 games for "provoking" Zidane's headbutt.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/s ... index.html
That is the gayest gayness I've heard of in a long time.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/s ... index.html
That is the gayest gayness I've heard of in a long time.