OT - Middle East, on the brink?

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:17 pm

Israel's destruction in Lebanon is too over the top. How will destroying a whole country when a faction of it is the enemy going to help in the long run. This will lead to another Israel/Lebanon stalemate which you had for so many years at the border.

As for our troops, we're stuck. If they do have a regional all out war, do we have enough troops in the region to to fight a long war?

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:57 pm

Boy, the media machine works-that's for sure. Israel is NOT destroying Lebanon. They are destroying Hezbollah's infrastructure over there. Anyone hear Israel's UN ambassador make a plea, in person, in front of everyone at the UN, to Lebanon's ambassador to work with them to knock out Hezbollah?

We never asked Hezbollah to exercise 'restraint'. There's never been a UN resolution condemning Syria's involvement in terrorism. Heck, they won't even call them terrorists in there!

In the world of terrorism, the only those people understand is a show of strength. Talking will do absolutely nothing. Iran isn't interested in talking, for instance...they're simply throwing up a smokescreen while they continue to make atomic Iran a reality. So is N. Korea.

Why do so many people automatically distrust Israel? I just don't get it. It's like WWII, when, even though we were at war with the Nazis, the jews got no respect at all.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:20 pm

Inuyasha wrote:Israel's destruction in Lebanon is too over the top.

I think its just right...

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:23 pm

I agree it would have occurred, but our invasion of Iraq and the subsequent rise of terrorism in the Middle East wasn't doing anything
to promote a peaceful soultion for conflicts. The way Bush went into
Iraq without support of the other Superpowers of the world makes other
countries follow suit. Why can't the US demand a ceasefire right now and get all the parties to talk about whats going on and try and negotiate a peaceful solution? You know we can't? Because it would be so hypocritical after the way we invaded Iraq. We did what we felt was right on our own terms, so other countries are doing the same. Why should we expect them to give a crap when we dont?

pk500 wrote: Jack:
Normally I agree with you on matters of the Middle East, but conflicts between Jews and Arabs have taken place since Biblical times. The area has been a powder keg forever.

This conflict would have occurred whether Uncle Sam was the new neighbor in Iraq, or not. Now, the level of support that Hezbollah's fellow f*cks in Arab terrorism provide Hezbollah could be influenced by the U.S. presence, as they might see this conflict as another way to antagonize the U.S. because the U.S. is such a staunch ally of Israel.

But this conflict was bound to happen, U.S. presence in the region or not.

Take care,
PK

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:25 pm

JackB1 wrote:I agree it would have occurred, but our invasion of Iraq and the subsequent rise of terrorism in the Middle East wasn't doing anything

Un true...The only place its risen is in Iraq...Everywhere else its been status quo.

Where the hell have you been the last 30-40 years???????

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:28 pm

XXXIV wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:Israel's destruction in Lebanon is too over the top.
I think its just right...

I don't know man, just bombing areas with innocent civilians is way too much. That goes both ways too with the Israeli innocents getting bombed too.

I think they could have done it a little better by doing it how we did vs al quida in iraq.

But thats what happens when its a cycle of violence. One act of force leads to a greater act of force etc... etc....

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:38 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
XXXIV wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:Israel's destruction in Lebanon is too over the top.
I think its just right...
I don't know man, just bombing areas with innocent civilians is way too much. That goes both ways too with the Israeli innocents getting bombed too.

.

I dont like seeing that either.
The problem is thats where thses pricks hide. They use their own people as human shields. They are simply the scum of the earth.

The US isnt exactly innocent in that dept either. I do recall a hospital and the Chineese embassy being blown up in Serbia...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:38 pm

tealboy03 wrote:Israel is NOT destroying Lebanon. They are destroying Hezbollah's infrastructure over there ... Why do so many people automatically distrust Israel?

Mischaracterization. I think the proper interpretation should be that many here, including me, wonder why the U.S. offers blind support to Israel.

No question Israel is trying to destroy Hezbollah infrastructure. But did it ever occur to you that Lebanese civilians also use those bridges, roads, airports and urban areas that are being damaged and destroyed?

Yes, Israel is within its rights to retaliate. But to say little, old Israel is only taking out Hezbollah targets with no damage to civilian Lebanon is very naive.

This is the outcome of terrorism because terrorists live within the civilian population rather than on a conventional warzone front. But to infer that this Israeli show of force against Hezbollah doesn't hurt the general Lebanese population is misguided.

These airstrikes are occuring in Lebanon, not Hezbollahville. There is no easy solution, but it's not a cut-and-dried as you seem to infer.

Take care,
PK

LAking · Post by **LAking** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:48 pm

My mother is in Haifa right now. She'll be there for another month or so and then my sister will be going there as soon as my mom is back. My sister will be staying for 4 or 5 months i believe. I'm scared to say the least. If things get out of hand my sister will probably not go, although she really wants to. My mom of course is already there and just has to wait and see. She said she could hear the rocket that hit the beach in Haifa but said they really don't create much damage other than the exact spot they hit. But who knows what will happen if hezbollah deliver on their promise/threat and send a lot more rockets into Haifa and other northern Israeli cities.

It's frustrating watching the Arab nations and Israel always fighting like this. The people of the middle east value pride just a little too much. It's always about getting your revenge, consequences be damned. I do think Israel takes its "Defense" too far sometimes. They kill so many innocent civilians and that only helps to create more terrorists. It will never stop, people will just keep dying.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:48 pm

Bush is really stuck here.

It would be hypocritical for the U.S. to try to broker peace since Bush's mantra -- and I think it's solid strategy -- has been, "We will not negotiate with terrorists."

That said, attempts at diplomacy like this are feeble and will be laughed at by the terrorists and Arab world:

>>>President Bush, on a trip to Russia, said it was up to Hezbollah “to lay down its arms and to stop attacking.”<<<

Yeah, right. Sure, just like the insurgents in Iraq were supposed to lay down their arms for the U.S. There are clean battle lines in this region: Israel-U.S. vs. all terror groups. So if the U.S. is fighting one of the allied terror groups in Iraq, how the hell does Bush expect one of those groups to stop attacking the U.S.' most staunch ally in the region?

It's all show by Bush, soundbite diplomacy. Bush can't be that stupid to believe Hezbollah is going to listen.

As I said, Bush is really stuck. A very tough situation. You can't negotiate with terrorists, but you can't expect them to drop their arms when Uncle Sam -- who is fighting fellow terrorists in Iraq -- says so.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:49 pm

Just curious, King: Why is your mom in Haifa? Relatives there?

I pray for her safety and hope this conflict stops now, man.

Take care,
PK

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:07 pm

King, I hope you Mom stays safe.

I can't blame Israel for saying enough is enough. However, Lebanon is one of the more moderate governments in the Middle East. The problem is they don't have the power to take on the formidable Hezbollah terrorists. So while the retaliation is understandable, I think it's a short-sighted strategy that could backfire and bring more unrest to the region.

Both the Jews and Muslims have contributed to the conflict here. The refusal of Arab nations to recognize Israel, suicide bombing, the tendency of Israel to fall back on "eye for an eye" policies and react with overwhelming force, and the idiotic settlement policy are just some of the things that have the pot boiling over.

However, we've been down this road before, and most of the overt Middle Eastern conflicts tend to be short. Syria and Iran are going to probably talk tough and offer aid, but I don't think they're going to take on Israel directly. Especially since there's little question the White House will back Israel.

LAking · Post by **LAking** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:50 pm

pk500 wrote:Just curious, King: Why is your mom in Haifa? Relatives there?

I pray for her safety and hope this conflict stops now, man.

Take care,
PK

Thanks for the support guys. The story goes like this. My sister has been planning on studying abroad in Israel for over a year now. she's finally going next month. For the first 6 weeks you take a crash course in Hebrew so you can function within society. My sister can read Hebrew but can't understand it. My Mom got excited about my sister's trip so she decided to just take vacation and take the hebrew class as well. She's just there to enjoy the country and learn some Hebrew. My mom and to a slightly lesser extent my sister are very into the cultural judaism stuff. Nobody in our family really believes in the religious stuff but they enjoy the cultural aspects and identify as Jewish if asked about their relgion. I'm really not into it at all, and the violence between Arabs and Jews makes me less "proud" of the culture as well. I was always nervous about my sister going there but when i learned more about Hafai i figured i'm just over reacting. So much for that.

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:17 pm

Hope your Mom is safe and sound King....I know I would be a mess if my Mom was over there right now, so I know how you feel. It seems like the "eye for an eye" retaliation is never going to end over there unless it escalates out of control and we all hope that never happens. Religion is always at the root of these problems and that's what causes me to believe that religion causes more harm in the world than good.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:03 pm

pk500 wrote:
No question Israel is trying to destroy Hezbollah infrastructure. But did it ever occur to you that Lebanese civilians also use those bridges, roads, airports and urban areas that are being damaged and destroyed?

Yes, Israel is within its rights to retaliate. But to say little, old Israel is only taking out Hezbollah targets with no damage to civilian Lebanon is very naive.

This is the outcome of terrorism because terrorists live within the civilian population rather than on a conventional warzone front. But to infer that this Israeli show of force against Hezbollah doesn't hurt the general Lebanese population is misguided.

These airstrikes are occuring in Lebanon, not Hezbollahville. There is no easy solution, but it's not a cut-and-dried as you seem to infer.

Take care,
PK

I'm not a complete dunce, PK...you might give me a little more credit than that. Of course I know that. What I'm saying is that Israel isn't sitting in a war cabinet, saying 'Screw it. Let's just make Lebanon into a parking lot.'

Collateral damage is a part of the hell of war. I hate it, I wish there were never another one, but I won't tell someone who gets the snot kicked out of them day after day for years on end to stop or hold back. Decisive action is the only course with these murdering terrorist types.

The only thing a school yard bully understands is a swift kick in the nuts...

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:04 pm

JackB1 wrote:Religion is always at the root of these problems and that's what causes me to believe that religion causes more harm in the world than good.

Couldn't agree with you more...

fsquid · Post by **fsquid** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:09 pm

fsquid wrote:After watching the pictures from over there, does anyone have Genesis's "Land of Confusion" in their head?

I guess not

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:36 pm

fsquid wrote:
fsquid wrote:After watching the pictures from over there, does anyone have Genesis's "Land of Confusion" in their head?
I guess not

...I do now

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:07 pm

One point not being mentioned in all this, is that the US should have been more involved in what has been going on the past 6 years in the rest of the Middle East, besides Iraq. We have stood by and watched and now it may be too late to do anything about it. Previous administrations (especially Carter) have done much to schedule talks, summits, treaty's, etc. in the Middle East and do what they can to try and keep the situation there somewhat under control. Bush hasn't really done anything to try and keep peace there. He seems to have other priorities.