Official World Cup Discussion Thread (No Spoilers)

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:49 pm

fsquid wrote:Maybe we should get Di Canio out there to shove a ref or two?

Ha! Paul Alcock looked like David Byrne in the Talking Heads' "Once in a Lifetime" video as he stumbled backward on his ass after Di Canio's shove!

Take care,
PK

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:59 pm

One of the great players of all time, Kaiser F. Beckenbauer seems to agree that there are way too many yellow cards being shown:

"As a referee in that situation, I have to go over to the player and let him know that next time he will receive a yellow card," Beckenbauer said. "If the players are booked again, they will miss a match, and that is out of proportion."

Referees handed out 102 yellow cards and five red cards in the first 21 matches of the competition, an average of 4.9 yellow cards per match. An average of 4.25 yellows per game were handed out at the 2002 World Cup in Asia.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:10 pm

Those numbers must be wrong or dated. There were 16 yellows and four reds -- none straight reds, either, I don't think -- in the Portugal-Netherlands game alone yesterday.

Take care,
PK

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:28 pm

pk500 wrote:Those numbers must be wrong or dated. There were 16 yellows and four reds -- none straight reds, either, I don't think -- in the Portugal-Netherlands game alone yesterday.

Take care,
PK

The numbers were quoted for the 1st 21 games of the competition. Portugal-Netherland did not count.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:51 pm

In terms of red cards I believe the numbers would rise in the mid 20's including the Italy-Aussie game today.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:53 pm

Well, at least a few writers think the officiating sucks at this World Cup:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/st ... d=tab1pos2

http://wc2006.telegraph.co.uk/Document. ... 0BBE8E1AB5

Take care,
PK

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:24 pm

You know the apocolypse is upon us when I went to an MLS game this weekend, and said to myself "god, the officiating here is actually competent."

Was also nice to see an entire game go by without a single player go down and stop play. At least the USA team refrained from diving in their brief appearance too in the WC.

Jimmydeicide · Post by **Jimmydeicide** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:28 pm

pk500 wrote:Exactly, JimD and Leebo. And it's why the further this World Cup progresses, the more I can't wait for the second weekend of August when the Premiership starts.

There's not nearly as much diving in the EPL as there is in the World Cup. And I hope foreign players that come into the EPL learn the "English way" instead of spreading diving like barnacles all over the EPL.

Dave, Jimmy, Simo, do you see more diving in the EPL in the last decade due to the explosion of foreign players? If so, has it reached a level where we should be concerned that the EPL will resemble this World Cup?

Interested on your take, as you guys have forgotten more about the beautiful game than I'll probably ever know.

Thanks,
PK

Ok as you may know my real thoughts never quite make it to these posts
1 i hate typing.
2. My grammar is terrible ive forgotten it all just like how ive forgotten how footy was in the 70's and 80's when i was still back home playing and watching and it was my only concern.
3. Im just dumb when it comes to putting it down on paper i end up all over the place lol (you know).

Any way ill try and answer your question.
While Dave and Adam probly have never stopped watching footy i did when i moved here in late 80's (once i found hockey that was it)

When i left Home It was still the first Division and maybe 10 European players . It was totaly different evry team had a Souness a Keane, s*** liverpool Had tommy smith souness and Jimmy case all 3 wouldnt think twice about breaking a leg . There was no diving it was unacceptable from players too fans non of them would have it , the only time you saw it was In European cups . Or at international level . the very first time i realy remember an account which affected a game was by my beloved Kenny Dalglish who did it against England i think.
There was a massive swing of a leg for a challenge inside the box which totaly missed and he sold it like he got caught on the shin, he did a real good job of it mind, wasnt a flop, it realy looked like he was kicked but after replay we all saw different .Penalty.

So i casualy followed it of and on but from over here it was too hard to follow casualy as you would miss what was happening all the timme, and coming from the old school way couldnt come to grips with all these foreign players flooding our English teams i couldnt follow Liverpool no more it had noone english on it.
So as i started to get back into it 3 yrs ago a came to grips with theForiegn players , still hating them when they dived or made a bad pass, but after all was said and done i realized despite all that the game has been made so much better by all these forigners, skill wise and tecnique, wow the first division was never this good. So i had finally accepted it by the end of my fist Epl season.
The next season i awaited with anticipation ive never had for a league before and i would be up at 430 am every saturday it was awsome, still hated the diving but the refs call it different in EPL.
This last year i noticed the diving a bit more and especially from the english players Joe cole, Gerreard my teams captain, but i felt the refs all in all handle it all very well especially Poll.

Onto the world cup. Was something said to these refs ? must have been. I dont get wrapped up in all the palarvor in the papers and on different media outlets i just watch the games and have my own opinions, discuusing them over a beer after a sunday match with my teamates. So if a ruling went down i missed it, but the icing on the cake was when Poll reffed like he did , Englands best ref and a ref i actually dont hate was horrific and didnt even know who he was booking in the end. Well that was it for me totaly lost interest other than England match ups but their another story.
Portugal Holland well, "your tmobile man of the match is"... "the referee" and what a favour he did us by the way i pissed myself laughing when he sent Decco off as i did today when the Italian player got a straight red for what should be what every tackle is like, normal. (to me) yeh he missed the ball so what he made an attempt the punishment is the free kick on the edge of the box thats good enough.

So im watching whatever games i feel are atractive and will laugh my way thru them, only hoping this is not going to be the norm from now on.

I dont think fifa can make Epl refs ref that way ,the English wont stand for it ,it would kill the game ,noone will pay to see that back home im sure of it.

Do i think there is too much diving in the EPL ? sure i do but as long as the refs ref like they have been it still will be my ultimate sporting event to watch, if it gets any worse mind im off the wagon.

On a side note, the reason i stopped watching hockey this year was due to the same thing that has crept into soccer.
You couldnt touch anyone and the players started to take dives, i was like "oh no not this now" it was horrible and as you can seethe NHL will put an end to this diving next year youll see.

Its not the refs fault realy its the players if we didnt have instant replay we would agree with most calls a ref makes, well a few more lol.

So i propose this, bring in instant replay for every game, not to have play halted but to review after the match is over and have the stupid dubious goals panel point their efforts towards the diving cheating bastards.
Have like a 3 strike rule. this would put a stop to it once and for all hit em in the pocket book or a suspension.

Sounds good to me.

Sorry for the lifes story but thats were i stand right now on it.
Im ok as it is in the EPL World cup is a joke and unwatchable right now.

If it gets worse in the EPL god help me, i wont know what to do , maybe indycar ? NAAAAAAA !!!!!

Sorry for all spelling mistakes and grammar

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:23 am

I think the diving has become more prevalent in the Prem, although nothing like it is abroad. I'm not about to link it with foreign players though, more on the fact that EPL players now play more often against teams from countries where it is more tolerated.

Another key factor is FIFA's continual watering down of the physical side of the game. Tackling is being continually eroded to 'let the skill players play', but fancy-dan poncing about is only half of the game, not all of it. This leads to more players diving and simulating, because in the past you would have got merely a free kick for being (or looking like you have been) fouled, whereas now you've got a good chance of getting your opponent booked, especially if you roll around like you've been hit with a pickaxe.

This will only get worse if people like Michel Platini have their way - he basically wants to see tackling completely outlawed. His continual sycophancy to Blatter sees him with a good chance of becoming head of UEFA after Lennart Johannson goes, so lord help us then.

Getting rid of the goons - fair enough. Get rid of tackling and strong defensive play, and you've got rid of football.

vanburen · Post by **vanburen** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:13 am

Naples39 wrote:You know the apocolypse is upon us when I went to an MLS game this weekend, and said to myself "god, the officiating here is actually competent."

Was also nice to see an entire game go by without a single player go down and stop play. At least the USA team refrained from diving in their brief appearance too in the WC.

last saturday, I went to the chicago/KC game after the usa/italy game, and while it was a pretty exciting 2-2 first half, I was utterly bored. I really like MLS too, but there was no intensity, no consequences, almost like watching a friendly, considering it was mid-season, 4 of 6 in our conference make the playoffs, and our best 3 players were in germany.

anyone else experience this?

I agree, though, I like how americans have honor and don't dive, whether in the world cup or in MLS.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:39 am

Based on what I have seen so far these are my top eleven players based on a 4-3-3 formation so far:

Buffon (Ita)

Puyol (Spa) Cannavaro (Ita) Lahm (Ger) Vieira (Fra)

Ballack (Ger) Figo (Por) Riquelme (Arg)

Rodriguez (Arg) Klose (Ger) Ronaldo Bra)

Dissapointing player so far: Ronaldinho
Best Goals: Both from Argentina, Cambiasso and M. Rodriguez and the last one by Ronaldo vs Ghana.

pigpen81 · Post by **pigpen81** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:44 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaFm47ls ... =1&t=t&f=b

Check out this compilation!

Absolutely hilarious

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:30 am

10spro wrote:Best Goals: Both from Argentina, Cambiasso and M. Rodriguez and the last one by Ronaldo vs Ghana.

No love for Joe Cole's volley from 30 yards in the group stages? That was almost as impressive as Maxi Rodriguez's blast.

Take care,
PK

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:38 pm

Information Builders is a British company that has kept the following stats:

"Diving": Italy is best at it.

"Fake Injuries": Paraguay.

"Bullying The Ref": Croatia.

"Most Tantrums": The Dutch Team.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:28 pm

pigpen81 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaFm47ls ... =1&t=t&f=b

Check out this compilation!

Absolutely hilarious

Life of Brian

....sweet...

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:43 am

You've got to give Poll credit for manning up and admitting his mistake with the three yellow cards:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story ... et&cc=5901

I'm glad the guy will continue to ref games in the EPL. I still think he's a solid ref.

Take care,
PK

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:49 am

More film of last night's 'disgraceful scenes' (TM - S Blatter)

Come in Mr Heinze - your great big ban is waiting....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBDN9jh1 ... =argentina

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:08 pm

It's too bad that both SA nations that tried to play "Joga Bonito" are now eliminated in the WC. Obviously I was rooting for Argentina but despite losing to a PSO, the team always tried to display a gameplay that was pleasant to the eye, case in hand the win over Serbia in their second game of the tournament. Cambiasso's GOLAZO will be one of the all time greats!

The game with Germany started like a chess match, and the second half had more that its share of excitement.

Kudos to Klinsmann's team for tying the game and for the way they played. This German team is very different than yesteryears and more importantly is rich in youth. Argentina lost its confidence once keeper Abbondanzieri was injured. It was like "what do we do now?"

J. Pekerman made the right choice to bring Cambiasso for a mediocre Riquelme in trying to hold the lead, but the change I question is Cruz for Crespo. Why? Although Crespo didn't do much at that point, this man is most dangerous when you least expected, and he's a finisher.

I would have brought in Messi instead to control the midfield and bring a bit of calm before the German storm. It didn't happen, such is life, and the PK's went to the Germans.

Brazil was a big interrogation mark. Although it seemed to try to play the game that they are used to the last two games, this was the 1st tough team they faced and they just didn't have the answers. I mentioned during my predictions that if Ronaldinho was playing his best for Brazil and Riquelme the same for Argentina, these two teams would probably meet in the finals.

Ronaldinho was a huge dissappointment in this WC. Kaka lost his touch and Ronaldo was invisible vs France. Cafu and R. Carlos showed their age and Ribery was the star of the show. Who was supposed to cover Henry? How did he get there alone?

It doesn't matter now, this WC was mediocre in quality at best, shadowed by the poor job of the Zebras and it's now an all European affair.

I think Germany will face France in the finals and don't be surprised if coach J. Klinsmann ends up being the next USA coach after the WC.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:13 pm

I think Argentina cynically abandoned any attempt at positive football in the Germany game, and it rightfully came back to bite them.

Brazil only sniffed the beautiful game against a clearly overmatched Japan. Their other games were tactical struggles for the most part.

Neither team spent nearly enough time in this WC exhibiting the beautiful soccer upon which their reputations rest...or rested.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:25 pm

I disagree. Argentina always tried to play "il jogo bonito" when they were allowed. And that's why I praised the Germans because they came in hard looking for the tyring goal. J. Riquelme is the man that controls the strings for this team and with him gone along with Abbondanzieri, the team just lost its identity to which coach Pekerman could have reinstated with L. Messi instead of J. Cruz.

Feanor · Post by **Feanor** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:19 pm

Argentina played beautifully once, against Serbia, who gave up and let them run wild after the second goal. The rest of the time they did nothing more beautiful or attacking than the Germans did, aside from Maxi's superb individual volley.

Joga bonito got shown up as the Nike marketing slogan that it is the minute Argentina faced a tough team like Germany.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:02 am

Joga Bonito is not just playing beautiful soccer whenever possible but also a constant attack mentality with the proper players to do so. Very few teams played attacking football this WC, Germany, Argentina, Spain and while not always succesful; Brazil and Netherlands.. Joga Bonito is great when you can score 6-0 but it can be done equally well with a 1-0 score. But the important factor is that not too many teams had that "attacking" mentality.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:04 am

I think this is the virus of mediterranian football. Italy and sometimes Spain focus more on defense. You can see that in how Italy plays, no goals conceded.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:28 am

10spro wrote:Joga Bonito is not just playing beautiful soccer whenever possible but also a constant attack mentality with the proper players to do so. Very few teams played attacking football this WC, Germany, Argentina, Spain and while not always succesful; Brazil and Netherlands.. Joga Bonito is great when you can score 6-0 but it can be done equally well with a 1-0 score. But the important factor is that not too many teams had that "attacking" mentality.

I didn't see much of that "attacking" mentatlity at all in the German game. That's coach-speak anyway. The held the ball successfully (58-42% advantage) but had exactly the same amount of shots on target as the Germans (5). Seemed like a lot of indicisive and aimless passing to me, and the stats back that up.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:32 am

Rob, the Germany-Argentina game could have been a final in any event. Two superpowers with a rich football tradition. Like you said Argentina held the ball longer thouroghout the game, did that translate into an attacking game? That's not what I meant. A lot of teams with the score 1-0 vs a strong Host team would have clog their own zone with all eleven members in hope to achieve the win.

Argentina didn't play that way, It's not their style, in fact the Germans had some lapses in defense that could have cost them the game if Riquelme and Crespo were a bit more alert, before their tying goal.

But I gave them full credit. Germany looked for the tying goal and they kept coming strong although not always clearly to the point that Pekerman had to take Riquelme out of the game in hope that E. Cambiasso would contain M. Ballack a bit more.

When I mentioned the "attacking style" teams in this WC, all those Nations played a forward style "whenever possible", they didn't hibernate in their narrow leads.