Official World Cup Spoiler Thread

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:51 pm

dougb wrote: Great Pics Zep!

From your vantage point did you find that being able to see the plays develop over the entire field improved your appreciation of the tactics?

Best wishes,

Doug

Doug, my friend, I have been to more soccer matches than I could possibly count, having been to many Nat's friendlies and qualifiers up and down the east coast, and having been a Metros season ticket holder since the beginning, in 1996. These were my first US games on foreign soil, though I now realize I must try to go to the Azteca everytime we play there from now on.

I have sat in many places at matches, in large stadiums and small venues, but my favorite remains where I sit at Metros/RBNY matches, in what I call 'the perch;' up in the mezzanine at Giants Stadium, near the center of the pitch. From there I can see the entire field well, but I admit I do miss out on the intensity of the closer action one can feel when sitting down low. Much like basketball, since soccer players wear no pads, you can really get a feel for the emotion and personality of the players up close; you can really see their faces and hear their chatter. But up in the perch, I can see the whole of the field much better than down low, and I like that better.

In NFL games, I much prefer to be in the endzone up in the mezzanine or higher rather than what is traditionally considered the 'best seats' on the 50 yard line. From the endzone, I find the running game to be much more engaging, as the holes are revealed very well. Maybe it's just that I've been used to that angle since going to Redskins games from when I was a child; I still head down to DC and go to games with my Pops when I can. For soccer, I prefer the midfield to the endzone.

I would say that, as in any major sport except possibly hoops, you can't really see the game well on TV. You just can't! It is truly amazing how much more quickly people I've known have come to understand and appreciate the game of soccer once they've had a chance to see it live, not only for the atmosphere and emotion of the crowd (OK, not so true at Metros/RBNY games, lol), but also in terms of seeing the game. On TV, even in HD, which is of course several orders of magnitude better than standard 1940's technology TV, you just don't see the spaces and the off-the-ball runs nearly well enough to get a feel for the rhythm of the game. Live, everything makes so much more sense, it's not even funny.

I wasn't too happy to be so low in Nuremberg, especially since the field has a track around it, but hey, it was cool to be so close to the players as they came on and off, some of whom looked me in the eyes and returned my displays of appreciation for their efforts with some applause and some thumbs ups. Even the ref looked me in the eye as he came off after the match, as I gave him an emphatic, double thumbs down.

pigpen81 wrote:Great pics Zep...thanks for sharing...but where the heck are you in there?

And that is the best pic of Jared and his wife you could come up with?

Congrats on the trip Zep.....way to represent DSP!

Pigpen: yeah, that is the only time I took pics of Jared and his wife. I did take one with a flash, but they look really freakishly scary with some crazy mad red-eye. I need to get Photoshop or LS on this computer so I can make that pic better, but that's the least blurry of the bunch I took of those two, who tried to visit us at halftime but that was as close as they could get. I was just using a little tiny Cannon point-and-shoot that doesn't have as many manual controls as I'd like. A lot of those pics are long-exposure pics, without a tripod or monopod. I just propped it up on something, trying to get a good angle with a folded dollar bill or something. Wasn't ideal, but hey, who cares? I hate flash most of the time, especially when I don't have any diffusion over it and can't offset it to the side. Jared's wife brought a real SLR camera, with a nice long zoom lens, so I bet she has some awesome shots!

JackB1 · Post by **JackB1** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:10 pm

great pics Zep! really enjoyed them. you are a lucky bastard to have gone there!

Zeppo wrote:OK for anyone interested in looking at some pictures, here you go:

http://homepage.mac.com/weck/PhotoAlbum4.html

Zlax45 · Post by **Zlax45** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:59 pm

What a physical game between the Portugal and Holland with 4 men sent off with 2 on each side.

The annoucers were saying the ref lost control of the game but I just think it was just a physical game and most of the cards were warranted.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:02 pm

Well,

That was a shambolic mess! Kind of made mockery of the FIFA fair play didn't it.

Let's see:

Diving to draw fouls - check
Not playing the ball back to the team whose player was injured - check
Cynical fouling - check
Handbags after the whistle - check

I'm not sad to see the Dutch go out on that display as they do as much diving as the Portugese. But that was really awfully cynical of Figo to dive clutching his head to draw the red!

All of a sudden, England's chances are much brighter, what with half the Portugese team out with suspension. One wonders, if the beat England, whether they'll have enough players not under suspension to field a squad

best wishes,

Doug

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:09 pm

Not worst reffed game...worst announced game.
Most of those cards were earned.
Great game...physical game...fun game... marred by terrible announcers.

Can we get announcers that know the game?

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:11 pm

Both teams pretty much took the fair play flag and wiped their arses with it.

Best wishes,

Doug

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:14 pm

dougb wrote:Both teams pretty much took the fair play flag and wiped their arses with it.

Exactly!

The ref only played the cards

he was dealt

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:15 pm

No, definitely one of the worst refereed games - 16y and 4r ffs !

At least Graham Poll only screwed up the last 5 minutes.

And the most obvious red card, Figo's head-butt, was missed. With any luck, he'll get a retrospective ban from the FIFA review panel, and Ronaldo the Show Pony will be injured.

Oh, and before the devotees of the Glasgow Kiss take me to task about Figo's skulling of Van Bommel, any movement contact like that is deemed to be dangerous play and hence a straight red.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:17 pm

davet010 wrote:No, definitely one of the worst refereed games - 16y and 4r ffs !

.

He could have cancelled the game?...

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:19 pm

XXXIV wrote:Not worst reffed game...worst announced game.
Most of those cards were earned.
Great game...physical game...fun game... marred by terrible announcers.

Can we get announcers that know the game?

I disagree. I thought the game was disgraceful. Was entertaining for the first 60 minutes, but then the players lost their cool. The ref couldn't control what was going on, and the players embarrassed themselves IMO with the diving, cheap shots, etc. I was kinda hoping both teams would lose

I also think JP Dellacamera (the pbp guy) is the best soccer pbp in the country having listened to him to dozens of games on ESPN and MLS coverage. Granted you could say that is a bit of a backhanded complement

. The color guy was John Harkes, former captain of DC United and the US national team, so it's not like he doesn't have a deep knowledge of the game either.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:20 pm

Naples39 wrote:
XXXIV wrote:Not worst reffed game...worst announced game.
Most of those cards were earned.
Great game...physical game...fun game... marred by terrible announcers.

Can we get announcers that know the game?
I disagree. I thought the game was disgraceful. Was entertaining for the first 60 minutes, but then the players lost their cool. The ref couldn't control what was going on, and the players embarrassed themselves IMO with the diving, cheap shots, etc. I was kinda hoping both teams would lose

.

What would you have done differently?

Harkes played US soccer?...nuff said about his knowledge.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:21 pm

I agree with Dave. Any time a game gets that out of control, the fault lies squarely with the ref and only with the ref. Face it, it's his job to control the game, and once the players see how much they can get away with, they will keep pushing the evnelope further and further until all hell breaks loose, like it just about did tonight.

I wouldn't be surprised if Figo gets a few games' suspension after the fact for that little head butt, even though the ref did end up booking him for it. But hey, you never know.

And XXIV, are you really saying that JP and Harkesie don't know the game? JP has been doing this s*** for nearly 20 years now, and Harkesie is one of the first American players to play in Europe. Don't know the game?

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:22 pm

Zeppo wrote: And XXIV, are you really saying that JP and Harkesie don't know the game? JP has been doing this s*** for nearly 20 years now, and Harkesie is one of the first American players to play in Europe. Don't know the game?

I thought they were blaming the ref for the players play...What I am judging it on.

I really dont see how any of us would have reffed it better...It was intense and crazy.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:24 pm

They were blaming the ref for the game getting out of control. It's like dealing with children in a classroom; sure, you can pout and blame the kids all you want, but when a competent teacher comes into the fray, you can see that kids can behave.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:24 pm

XXXIV wrote:
davet010 wrote:No, definitely one of the worst refereed games - 16y and 4r ffs !

.
He could have cancelled the game?...

Only if one team goes down to below 7 - in accordance with Law 3 of the Laws of the Game.

I'm only aware of 2 games in the recent past which have been called off through this rule - a Portugal v Angola friendly (!) in 2001 where Angola had 4 sent off and 1 carried off, and an English Championship game of 2003 I think, unsurprisingly starring Sheff Utd and WBA.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:25 pm

davet010 wrote:No, definitely one of the worst refereed games - 16y and 4r ffs !

At least Graham Poll only screwed up the last 5 minutes.

And the most obvious red card, Figo's head-butt, was missed. With any luck, he'll get a retrospective ban from the FIFA review panel, and Ronaldo the Show Pony will be injured.

Oh, and before the devotees of the Glasgow Kiss take me to task about Figo's skulling of Van Bommel, any movement contact like that is deemed to be dangerous play and hence a straight red.

As the Guardian text commentator pointed out Poll won't have to worry about is match being remembered after this fiasco.

But Dave, how do you think the ref should have handled it? More stern lectures like they did in the past? I just wonder how the heck to handle two teams absolutely bent on cheating like these two were, diving at the drop of a hat.

I think the major problem the officials have is that they're putting themselves in a box issuing yellow cards for some pretty minor stuff, then having nowhere to reach but for the second yellows and red for anything serious.

BTW, I still have a U.S.A 94 shirt with three blind refs on it!

Best wishes,

Doug

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:26 pm

Zeppo wrote:They were blaming the ref for the game getting out of control. It's like dealing with children in a classroom; sure, you can pout and blame the kids all you want, but when a competent teacher comes into the fray, you can see that kids can behave.

He gave yellows when he saw a yellow ...should he have spanked them?...or called their mothers?

Again I dont see how anyone could have done that much better.

The yellows were mostly earned.

Naples39 · Post by **Naples39** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:28 pm

34,

To clarify, I didn't mean to disagree about your evaluation of the ref. I tend to agree with you about that. It's not the refs fault for giving out of a bunch of deserved cards when the players lose it. Seems people are complaining that the ref lost control, yet that he gave too many cards at the same time. Exactly what is he supposed to do? Cards are his only way of attempting to gain control. This one is on the players IMO.

What I did disagree with was your evaluation of the announcers and describing it as a 'great game.'

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:30 pm

Figo definitely should've been booked for the headbutt. But Von Bronkhorst's Scarlett O'Hara dive (15 seconds after contact) surpassed the Maxi goal as my favorite WC moment so far

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:30 pm

Naples39 wrote:34,

To clarify, I didn't mean to disagree about your evaluation of the ref. I tend to agree with you about that. It's not the refs fault for giving out of a bunch of deserved cards when the players lose it. Seems people are complaining that the ref lost control, yet that he gave too many cards at the same time. Exactly what is he supposed to do? Cards are his only way of attempting to gain control. This one is on the players IMO.

What I did disagree with was your evaluation of the announcers and describing it as a 'great game.'

Gotcha...

I call it a great game because I enjoyed it...If Im on edge of seat and excited , to me, thats a great game.

As for the announcers...they ignored the players and the play and focused on the ref....How many times did they have to call him the "Russian" ref?..

Post by **Jared** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:32 pm

Hi from Manchester,

I'm almost back from the World Cup trip...fate (or, more accurately, changes in plane schedules) has me spending the night in the Manchester airport. Fortunately, I've found free wireless and TVs showing the games, so I've been happy. (England-Ecuador - uninspiring; Portugal-Holland, players were a disaster, but still too many unnecessary cards).

As for the trip, it's been excellent, despite our performance. The atmosphere at all of the games was excellent, especially at Kaiserslautern. What a great stadium to see a game in! It keeps in the sound real well and you feel like you're close to the pitch even in the upper deck. Only stadium that was disappointing was in Nuremberg...the seats under the upper deck only get the noise from their own area, so you don't really feel like you can hear the rest of the crowd/atmosphere.

We've met fans from all over the world...people really open up when they're travelling for the cup and everyone has the common language of soccer/football to share in. I even met some nice England fans in Cologne before the England/Sweden game

Also got to meet Chris/Zeppo and got to drown out our sorrows together after the Ghana game.

My wife took a ton of pics with her new digital SLR, so I'll be posting them at some point once we're back in the states. And maybe after I recover from my all beer and sausage diet from the last few weeks. (Beer is almost cheaper than water in Germany, and it's soooo gooooood.)

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:37 pm

To be honest, I'm not sure what more the ref could have done with 2 teams whose discipline had collapsed like that.

If he sends players off early, he's 'ruining the spectacle'

If he doesn't, he creates an atmosphere of indiscipline where every little nudge is either a foul, a dive or an excuse for an elbow.

The ref should have stopped the game, got the captains to one side and told them to get a grip - WC knock out game or not.

Part of the problem facing soccer is that indiscipline like that occurs at all levels, to an extent which does not seem to be the case in other sports. And it isn't a racial thing either - watch a rugby game in any country, which is basically 80 minutes of legislated thuggery, and the first thing you notice is that once the ref steps in, there's no backchat or crowding round.

Time for FIFA to stop arsing around with their latest moronic initiatives, and start banning players and penalising teams points...except all that will happen is that leagues will take years to finish as cases go through the courts.

I do sometimes wonder whether it isn't slightly too late to get back to an appropriate level of respect for officials...and whether the reduction in respect and the age of slo-mo, 50 camera angles and instant 'expert' analysis contribute to each other.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:42 pm

Jared wrote:Hi from Manchester,

I'm almost back from the World Cup trip...fate (or, more accurately, changes in plane schedules) has me spending the night in the Manchester airport. Fortunately, I've found free wireless and TVs showing the games, so I've been happy. (England-Ecuador - uninspiring; Portugal-Holland, players were a disaster, but still too many unnecessary cards).

See, now we've got fire, the wheel and even wireless hotspots !

Did you get to spend any time in the fair city on your way out to Germany ?

Post by **Jared** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:49 pm

Dave,

Nope. On the way in, we both decided to stay in the airport and work on our dissertations (yes, we're working as we travel). In fact, our plan for tonight is to work until we're unconscious to make up for all the writing time missed while travelling. I was planning on going into the city to watch England-Ecuador, but our flight arrived only a few minutes before kickoff so I found a spot in the lobby and watched from there. Hopefully next time I'm in Manchester I can actually see the city.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:51 pm

davet010 wrote:To be honest, I'm not sure what more the ref could have done with 2 teams whose discipline had collapsed like that.

If he sends players off early, he's 'ruining the spectacle'

If he doesn't, he creates an atmosphere of indiscipline where every little nudge is either a foul, a dive or an excuse for an elbow.

The ref should have stopped the game, got the captains to one side and told them to get a grip - WC knock out game or not.

Part of the problem facing soccer is that indiscipline like that occurs at all levels, to an extent which does not seem to be the case in other sports. And it isn't a racial thing either - watch a rugby game in any country, which is basically 80 minutes of legislated thuggery, and the first thing you notice is that once the ref steps in, there's no backchat or crowding round.

Time for FIFA to stop arsing around with their latest moronic initiatives, and start banning players and penalising teams points...except all that will happen is that leagues will take years to finish as cases go through the courts.

I do sometimes wonder whether it isn't slightly too late to get back to an appropriate level of respect for officials...and whether the reduction in respect and the age of slo-mo, 50 camera angles and instant 'expert' analysis contribute to each other.

Hmm...

I think you have an excellent point about instant replay's impact on the respect (or lack thereof) towards the decisions of officials. In hockey and football instant replay is used to various situations - and it's amazing how many times it's difficult to tell what the correct decision is even when the replay is slowed to a crawl.

I've seen the indiscipline towards referees occur even in an industrial league I played in a few years ago, though thankfully things are much better in the current league I've joined. I thought the Swiss referee was much better yesterday in charge of the Argentina - Mexico game. He didn't hand out a hatful of niggling yellows and he seemed to have a good handle on the players. Granted the display today was outrageous - I do think quite a fair proportion of the Dutch team display a real lack of sportsmanship while Portugal's reputation for diving has been fairly well established for some time.

Well, it'll be England versus the Portugal reserves in the quaterfinal. Maybe it was all part of the Evil Sven's master plan?