Official World Cup Spoiler Thread

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:32 pm

When did Dick Bavetta start reffing soccer matches?

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:53 pm

Not exactly the kind of game that's going to entice the average U.S. sports fan into following the sport. I kept wishing I could pick up the controller.

Atxj · Post by **Atxj** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:00 pm

RobVarak wrote:An unqualified ref and the greasy-haired, diving cheat-monkeys from Italy are a bad combination.

Edit:

Turns out that the ref was suspended in 2002 for "professional irregularities."

That about sums it up.

Zlax45 · Post by **Zlax45** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:01 pm

All Three Red Cards were deserved...Sadly but true.

Atxj · Post by **Atxj** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:02 pm

Zlax45 wrote:All Three Red Cards were deserved...Sadly but true.

Not so much.

The 1st for sure, a case can be made for the 2nd but the 3rd absolutely not.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:02 pm

Slumberland wrote:Not exactly the kind of game that's going to entice the average U.S. sports fan into following the sport. I kept wishing I could pick up the controller.

Au contraire - I think that the drama and excitement in that game should get anyone following it - that game had everything.

De Rossi - disgraceful, looking at a 2 or 3 game ban there.

US no 4 - bit unlucky, that isn't a two footed tackle or a stamp, either of which is defined as having definite downward motion and intent to injure.

Pope - had been skating on the edge, wasn't surprised.

Ref was described by UK commentators as having 'lost it'.

Effectively 9 a side, because Perrota was walking wounded after 70 mins, but Italy had used all their subs.

US deserved at least a point, final group games will be fascinating as anyone can still make it. Czechs are going to have to go for a win against Italy, as they will be thinking Ghana might take all 3 from the US, after beating them.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:02 pm

jondiehl wrote:
dougb wrote:
RobVarak wrote:I don't think I've ever been more stunned at a decision. That's a joke. An absolute, out and out joke. This guy has stunk from the opening whistle, calling everything tougher than a stiff breeze. This is a damn shame.
That's a studs up two-footed tackle - can easily break an ankle with that kind of play. Fully deserved a red card just as the vicious elbow earlier deserved a red card.

Best wishes,

Doug
Help me understand... that late sliding tackle from the side got us a red card, and then 5min later another US player does the exact same thing and it only results in a yellow card?

That would be like giving one offensive lineman 10yds for holding on a play, and then another lineman gets 30yds, 7pts for the other team, and gets ejected out of the game. Those two last cards for the US seemed like the exact same foul, yet the first player goes straight to the red card but the 2nd one was only a yellow? He was coming out anyway since he already had the yellow from the previous match, why not just give him a red as well and skip the yellow? At least it won't like the game is completely fixed as it does now.

Oh well, "real" football starts in a couple of months anyway. Go Rams.

Because the first tackle was reckless. Your premise that the two tackles are the same is incorrect.

Here's a link to the guardian article describing the standards for red and yellow cards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 999648.stm

Best wishes,

Doug

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:04 pm

Don't agree - US first sending off wasn't reckless or an attempt to injure, or a studs up tackle. Was a mis-timed sliding tackle....5 years ago, that wouldn't have been a yellow card, back when it was a man's game.

sfz_T-car · Post by **sfz_T-car** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:07 pm

I thought the straight red for Mastroieni's tackle was pretty harsh. The others were legitimate. But overall, it was a tremendous effort and entertaining game. I am a bit surprised Arena didn't use all his subs, but he did have the team ready to play.

As for the players he criticized on Monday, Keller came up big when called upon and Donovan used his speed effectively. Beasley didn't have much time to make an impact, but the fact remains he didn't

Zlax45 · Post by **Zlax45** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:08 pm

The third Red Card was dangerous... deserving of the second yellow in my opinion.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:08 pm

davet010 wrote:Don't agree - US first sending off wasn't reckless or an attempt to injure, or a studs up tackle. Was a mis-timed sliding tackle....5 years ago, that wouldn't have been a yellow card, back when it was a man's game.

I agree that it wasn't an attempt to injure, but I do think it was a reckless tackle. You're probably right that it wouldn't have drawn a straight red 5 years ago, but then the elbow to the head likely wouldn't have drawn one either. It was a needless challenge in that part of the pitch and one of the rare occasions where I don't think the Italian's exaggerated the pain caused!

Best wishes,

Doug

Zlax45 · Post by **Zlax45** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:09 pm

Dempsey was much more dangerous today then Beasley!!!

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:09 pm

US was clearly more aggressive, not that that counts for anything by itself.

Until the second red card, they were taking more runs at Italy. They just couldn't finish though.

Italy didn't seem to be pressing at all in the first half.

davet010 · Post by **davet010** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:15 pm

dougb wrote:
davet010 wrote:Don't agree - US first sending off wasn't reckless or an attempt to injure, or a studs up tackle. Was a mis-timed sliding tackle....5 years ago, that wouldn't have been a yellow card, back when it was a man's game.
I agree that it wasn't an attempt to injure, but I do think it was a reckless tackle. You're probably right that it wouldn't have drawn a straight red 5 years ago, but then the elbow to the head likely wouldn't have drawn one either. It was a needless challenge in that part of the pitch and one of the rare occasions where I don't think the Italian's exaggerated the pain caused!

Best wishes,

Doug

Nah Doug, the deliberate elbow to the side of the head is always a straight red, even in England

I think it was De Rossi's 'cocking' of the elbow that give him away, the stupid sod. Commentators over here were drawing comparisons between him and Gattuso, who is exceptionally combatitive, but very much in the 'tough but fair' mode.

Italy look poor to me - they were lucky to beat Ghana, and I thought that Michael Essien was by far the best player on the pitch that night. if the forwards had finished like they did against the Czechs, they might well have won.

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:31 pm

davet010 wrote:
dougb wrote:
davet010 wrote:Don't agree - US first sending off wasn't reckless or an attempt to injure, or a studs up tackle. Was a mis-timed sliding tackle....5 years ago, that wouldn't have been a yellow card, back when it was a man's game.
I agree that it wasn't an attempt to injure, but I do think it was a reckless tackle. You're probably right that it wouldn't have drawn a straight red 5 years ago, but then the elbow to the head likely wouldn't have drawn one either. It was a needless challenge in that part of the pitch and one of the rare occasions where I don't think the Italian's exaggerated the pain caused!

Best wishes,

Doug
Nah Doug, the deliberate elbow to the side of the head is always a straight red, even in England

I think it was De Rossi's 'cocking' of the elbow that give him away, the stupid sod. Commentators over here were drawing comparisons between him and Gattuso, who is exceptionally combatitive, but very much in the 'tough but fair' mode.

Italy look poor to me - they were lucky to beat Ghana, and I thought that Michael Essien was by far the best player on the pitch that night. if the forwards had finished like they did against the Czechs, they might well have won.

De Rossi was an idiot. That was an outrageous foul even by Italian standards - though it wouldn't have been out of place in the Uruguayan League ironically enough.

Agree completely with your assessment of Italy - even when the U.S. were down to 9 men they still caused the Italians trouble on a number of occasions. I think what were seeing is how much trouble fast teams can create for some of the big soccer powers when they aren't overawed, challenge for the ball, and close down space and passing lanes quickly. Ivory Coast is another example, besides Ghana, of a team that can cause fits for their tactically more sophisticated opponents.

Ghana are impressive - no doubt. if not for Cech they could have easily ended up completely routing the Czech's. I can't imagine the Czech's beating Italy as they don't have any decent uninjured forwards and Nedved looked absolutely rubbish in the game against Ghana. Should be an excellent game between Ghana and the United States - wonder what impact all the suspensions due to yellow/reds are going to have on the game though?

Also, can we figure out a way to make the offside rule work properly. There is just no way that the linesman can properly judge the position of an attacking player at the moment a kick is made 40 yards back down the field!

Best wishes,

Doug

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:36 pm

Zlax45 wrote:All Three Red Cards were deserved...Sadly but true.

What? Mastroeni's straight red was F*CKING ATROCIOUS. It was a yellow card and a lecture at most. Instead, the corrupt ref used it as a payback or makeup call. You see that in hockey a lot, but the guy isn't ejected; he just goes to the box for two minutes

Pope's second card came on a slightly late tackle from the side, and it appeared he might have gotten a bit of ball, too. That tackle warranted a "One more and you're gone, Eddie" lecture that early in the half, and that's it.

I don't have the depth of soccer wisdom as some of you cats who grew up with the game, but that was the worst ref I've seen since I started watching the game avidly in 1998.

Still a very ballsy point by the U.S. I hate to root for those slimeballs, but go Italia on Thursday!

Take care,
PK

Jimmydeicide · Post by **Jimmydeicide** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:53 pm

pk500 wrote:
Zlax45 wrote:All Three Red Cards were deserved...Sadly but true.
What? Mastroeni's straight red was F*CKING ATROCIOUS. It was a yellow card and a lecture at most. Instead, the corrupt ref used it as a payback or makeup call. You see that in hockey a lot, but the guy isn't ejected; he just goes to the box for two minutes

Pope's second card came on a slightly late tackle from the side, and it appeared he might have gotten a bit of ball, too. That tackle warranted a "One more and you're gone, Eddie" lecture that early in the half, and that's it.

I don't have the depth of soccer wisdom as some of you cats who grew up with the game, but that was the worst ref I've seen since I started watching the game avidly in 1998.

Still a very ballsy point by the U.S. I hate to root for those slimeballs, but go Italia on Thursday!

Take care,
PK

I agree PK that straight red was an absolute joke, i had American Buddys calling me up asking what was going on.
Its no wonder the Yanks cant get into it, all the flopping the straight yellows , soccer players look like idiots anymore even the England players, J. Cole ,Gerrard in particular ,all a bunch of pussys its disgracing the game and with the exception of a few great moments ive not enjoyed this world cup much , im to busy cringing thinking anyone new to the game must think its all about acting and conning the refs , is it any wonder the refs dont know what to call.

Beckenbaur is right ,were are the warnings anymore ? Gone mate with the Era you were from.

JRod · Post by **JRod** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:06 pm

I've been saying this for years the European soccer is all about theatics. And that attitude is eroding English soccer. Spain and Italian soccer is about appealing every little push and pull to the ref.

Back to the game, the US can out alive and they did well not to sit back after the first goal. The own goal was a result for pushing forward by the US team. Something they didn't do against the Czechs.

The US Ghana game is going to be interesting. Ghana have speed. I think all Africans teams are fast.

One other thing, Beasley in this tournament is scared to run. If you watched him today, he would pass and then move a little. It was not like the Ghanas who would pass and make runs or cross up the Czechs to get space.

Lastly, you can blame Arena's tactics for Donovans absense in the first game. He was clearly move involved this game. In the first game is was too defensive. I blame that on Arena.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:33 pm

Was the strangest game I have ever seen....f***ed up.

The US should quit soccer.
Italy should be banned forever.

Zlax45 · Post by **Zlax45** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:45 pm

pk500 wrote:
Zlax45 wrote:All Three Red Cards were deserved...Sadly but true.
What? Mastroeni's straight red was F*CKING ATROCIOUS. It was a yellow card and a lecture at most. Instead, the corrupt ref used it as a payback or makeup call. You see that in hockey a lot, but the guy isn't ejected; he just goes to the box for two minutes

Pope's second card came on a slightly late tackle from the side, and it appeared he might have gotten a bit of ball, too. That tackle warranted a "One more and you're gone, Eddie" lecture that early in the half, and that's it.

I don't have the depth of soccer wisdom as some of you cats who grew up with the game, but that was the worst ref I've seen since I started watching the game avidly in 1998.

Still a very ballsy point by the U.S. I hate to root for those slimeballs, but go Italia on Thursday!

Take care,
PK

Kezman (That guy from Serbia might have the wrong name though) was thrown out on a similiar tackle yesterday. That is what I go by and Mastro came in with both feet at the player and caught him pretty good.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:00 pm

Slumberland wrote:Not exactly the kind of game that's going to entice the average U.S. sports fan into following the sport. I kept wishing I could pick up the controller.

I'll beg to differ. That was a GREAT match with all sorts of subplots. Red cards, go-ahead goal for U.S. called off, bad ref, etc. And the U.S. played really well.

I also thought that O'Brien and Balboa did a reasonable job at the end of the match explaining to the viewer just how tiring it is to play with nine men.

That was a hell of an effort by the U.S. team.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:05 pm

Zlax45 wrote:Kezman (That guy from Serbia might have the wrong name though) was thrown out on a similiar tackle yesterday. That is what I go by and Mastro came in with both feet at the player and caught him pretty good.

Totally different situation. That was Kezman's third foul in seven minutes in that match, plus Serbia & Montenegro was getting blown out, so that tackle could easily be seen as a cheap shot. Kezman had it coming to him.

That was not the situation with Pope.

Not every tackle is the same. Not every situation is the same. You need to apply context to each case.

Take care,
PK

Jimmydeicide · Post by **Jimmydeicide** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:03 pm

Kezmans was way different, he was 2 feet from 10 yds away and with one foot coming down ward to make sure he got a clean break in the tibia after the first foot broke the fibia.

Zlax your just wrong about evryone deserving the red cards just admit it dammit.

Zlax45 · Post by **Zlax45** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:05 pm

pk500 wrote:
Zlax45 wrote:Kezman (That guy from Serbia might have the wrong name though) was thrown out on a similiar tackle yesterday. That is what I go by and Mastro came in with both feet at the player and caught him pretty good.
Totally different situation. That was Kezman's third foul in seven minutes in that match, plus Serbia & Montenegro was getting blown out, so that tackle could easily be seen as a cheap shot. Kezman had it coming to him.

That was not the situation with Pope.

Not every tackle is the same. Not every situation is the same. You need to apply context to each case.

Take care,
PK

It shouldn't be...If you give Kezman a red card you have to give Mastro one based on FIFA"s standards...Fifa wants the refs to be robots and make the same call on every play with every official thus that Mastro call was fine under my eyes.

The USA team had ZERO shots on goal and that needs to be stepped up if they think they can get into the next round.

Zlax45 · Post by **Zlax45** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:10 pm

I might be wrong but it was a two-footed Challenge by Mastro!!!

Taken from the BBC Link

The need for consistency is vital. Fifa president Sepp Blatter said it is paramount there is better refereeing in 2006 than in the 2002 tournament in Japan and South Korea.

"The aim is to get a uniformity to interpretation and that is easier in a tournament environment."