Dear Microsoft, thanks for nothing.

Phototropic · Post by **Phototropic** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:44 pm

Feanor wrote:I really don't see the point in BC if you can't get your old saved games over from the Xbox to the 360. And MS never gave us an official solution to that problem.

That was the big thing for me. Without using my old saves, I really have no use for backwards compatible games which is unfortunate.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:16 pm

bdunn13 wrote:Ms has the specs to the hardware. They could do it if they wanted to.

Hell, anyone can get the specs of the hardware. That is not the issue. The issue is re-programming previous generation games to run in emulation on next generation hardware. If it were as easy as you suggest, then MS would have more game BC than they have. You seem to be suggesting that such programming is so easy. Got news for you, cross platform programming is anything BUT easy.

I'm not making excuses for MS. They made their claims and have yet to come through. Just because Sony was able to accomplish such with PS2>PS1 BC with proprietary hardware does not mean it is easy, especially when you are dealing with hardware from different GPU manufacturers.

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:37 pm

"The issue is re-programming previous generation games to run in emulation on next generation hardware"

You don't recode the games, you make an emulator that can run the games. And the CPU in the xbox was just an x86 processor which already has been emulated by MS in virtual PC quite well. They would just need to port that code to run on a different micro processor which I am sure they could do. The only other part is getting the other hardware emulated.

3rd parties have gotten pc(windows) games to run quite easily inside of linux through the use of windows emulation(wine, cedega http://www.transgaming.com/). When a new game comes out they don't change the game code, they tweak the emulator.

I am not trying to start an argument. I am just saying if 3rd parties can do it with other products, MS should be able to do it with all the resources they have. However, for some reason, they don't want to.

note: I still have 2 xboxes, so backwards compat is not a huge issue for me. However, I would like to clean up my living room buy just having a 360 in there and a ps2(just a ps3 when that hits if sony comes through with backwards compat). Actualy, I hope the ps3/360 has a bigger push for next gen games so I won't need any ps2/xbox games by that time.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:24 am

bdunn13 wrote:
You don't recode the games, you make an emulator that can run the games. And the CPU in the xbox was just an x86 processor which already has been emulated by MS in virtual PC quite well. They would just need to port that code to run on a different micro processor which I am sure they could do. The only other part is getting the other hardware emulated.

This has nothing to do with the CPU. The difficulty is related to the GPU's. The GPU on the Xbox was made by nVidia and is essentially a modded GeForce 3. The GPU on the 360 is made by ATI and is a world of difference from the XBox GPU. I am not sure an "emulator" is the answer either, especially if you are trying to run previous gen games in Hi-Res. This is where the re-programming comes in.

bdunn13 wrote:3rd parties have gotten pc(windows) games to run quite easily inside of linux through the use of windows emulation(wine, cedega http://www.transgaming.com/). When a new game comes out they don't change the game code, they tweak the emulator.

I am not sure if the 360 even uses an emulator as I don't remember reading anything about one. If they aren't using one, it would pretty much explain why this process has been so slow. If they are using an emulator, it may be that the results they are getting are not acceptable. Only MS knows for sure....

bdunn13 wrote:I am not trying to start an argument. I am just saying if 3rd parties can do it with other products, MS should be able to do it with all the resources they have. However, for some reason, they don't want to.

I don't buy the "they don't want to" argument. They have stated publicly that they will do BC. I believe they are simply having issues either technically and/or licensing-wise that are preventing them from proceeding. Again, only MS knows for sure at this time....

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:49 am

There's no doubt that Microsoft botched the bc issue but I can't say it necessarily bothers me too much. It's really only an issue for another 6 months to a year. About a year to a year-and-a-half after the PS2 launched I did not play a PS1 game at all. I bought the 360 to play new games, not Xbox games. It would be great to be able to play all Xbox games on the 360 but I never got rid of my Xbox so it doesn't really matter too much to me. I can see how someone who got rid of their Xbox might be pissed at the situation though.

And those holding out for old sports games to made bc you might as well just give up now. Sports games lose their value with the release of the newest games. I could see newer sports titles not released on the 360 being made bc (Head Coach for instance) before they'd get around to making NFL 2k5 or MVP 2005 bc.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:57 am

ScoopBrady wrote:It would be great to be able to play all Xbox games on the 360 but I never got rid of my Xbox so it doesn't really matter too much to me. I can see how someone who got rid of their Xbox might be pissed at the situation though.

I don't think it bothers most of us too much because we are hardcore gamers and most of us have owned an Xbox and played the top games.

But Microsoft is trying to lure the tens of millions of PS2-only owners who haven't necessarily experienced the top Xbox games. Sure, the Xbox 360 library will grow and we won't care about bc, but by then the PS3 will be out and it will just be another reason for PS2 only owners to wait. The way I see it the market leaders (Sony with the PS2 and Ninentendo with all of their handhelds) have deemed bc enough to include and market it. That probably tells you something.

At this point the lack of strong bc is not going to kill the 360, but it's just another miss that will hurt them in total (along with hardware shortages, high hardware failure rate, lack of "killer apps" at launch, etc.).

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:18 pm

Speaking of BC....

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/711/711242p1.html

Sony is rumored to be including a PS2 CPU and GPU with early models of the PS3 because of delays in getting software BC done in time for launch. The rumor also says that Sony will eventually stop putitng the PS2 hardware in PS3 machines when they have the majority of BC code done in software and any ones that aren't could be available as a downloadable patch.

If this is true, then it does lend credibility to the fact that BC is not an easy task as Sony has as much or more experience than anyone in this, but also highlights their committment to BC, which is alot more than you can say for MS at this point in time.....

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:34 pm

"which is alot more than you can say for MS at this point in time....."

Thats something we can agree on.

hellbent · Post by **hellbent** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:35 pm

I just read the latest word on the forthcoming BC update on Major Nelson's blog. Seems that it's getting dropped on us this week, 20 games, 2 confirmations (Doom 3 and Lego Star Wars). Keeping my fingers crossed for MVP 06, NCAA 06, NFL 2k5 (geez, I'd even settle for 2k4), and/or NHL 2k5. We'll hopefully find out later this week....

rayray00 · Post by **rayray00** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:10 pm

Back compat update is out there now...

1. 4x4 EVO 2
2. Amped® 2
3. Bad Boys 2
4. Big Mutha Truckers
5. DOOM 3®
6. Dreamfall: The Longest Journey
7. Fatal Frame™
8. FlatOut™
9. Grabbed by the Ghoulies™
10. Intellivision Lives
11. LEGO® Star Wars®
12. Minority Report
13. MLB SlugFest 20-04
14. The Punisher™
15. RalliSport Challenge
16. Silent Hill® 4: The Room
17. Spawn® Armageddon
18. Spider-Man
19. Star Wars Battlefront™
20. State of Emergency
21. Zapper™

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:21 pm

If they are going to give this type of effort, they should just quit while they are ahead. I think it's more disappointing to see lists like this than if they just dropped the entire concept and focused on something more useful.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:22 pm

No Links 2004? Unbelievable considering it is an MS product, but I guess this shows that it was not a good enough title to ensure BC....at least at this stage of the process. Very disappointing.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:23 pm

Leebo33 wrote:If they are going to give this type of effort, they should just quit while they are ahead. I think it's more disappointing to see lists like this than if they just dropped the entire concept and focused on something more useful.

Exactly. What a continued disappointment.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:28 pm

Wow, you could knock me over with a feather after reading the Grade-A titles on that BC list ...

Take care,
PK

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:32 pm

Back compat update is out there now...

1. 4x4 EVO 2
2. Amped® 2
3. Bad Boys 2
4. Big Mutha Truckers
5. DOOM 3®
6. Dreamfall: The Longest Journey
7. Fatal Frame™
8. FlatOut™
9. Grabbed by the Ghoulies™
10. Intellivision Lives
11. LEGO® Star Wars®
12. Minority Report
13. MLB SlugFest 20-04
14. The Punisher™
15. RalliSport Challenge
16. Silent Hill® 4: The Room
17. Spawn® Armageddon
18. Spider-Man
19. Star Wars Battlefront™
20. State of Emergency
21. Zapper™

Not sure what the problem is, but it seems like a decent enough update. A lot of the games on this list, like SWBF, Spider-Man, Silent Hill, Doom, Amped and Lego sold either a LOT or a respectable amount of copies. Heck the update is worth it alone for Lego. When you get down to it, there are only a small handful of games like Halo 2 or KOTOR that sold so many copies that nearly everyone has them. I guess M$ should personally ask members of DSP which games to add to the BC list...

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:48 pm

Spider-Man, Lego SW, and SW Battlefront are good additions. They are all games my son still plays regularly.

The rest of the list reads like the $5 clearance rack at Target.

The 360 is still missing any MX titles, and MX 2002 or Superfly would have been great additions. They are also stil missing a lot of games I still own, including Links, NBA Street 2, Inside Drive 2004, MX Superfly, Splashdown, Dynasty Warriors 4, X-Men Legends 1 & 2, and Moto GP. I don't care WHY these are not on the list, I only know that not including these further prolongs my abscence in next gen gaming.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:52 pm

Nothing of interest to me.

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:10 pm

What a horrible, horrible list.

I was really hoping to see Mercenaries on there, maybe MVP NCAA. They've already got Pandemic's engine down with SW:Battlefronts 1 & 2, so I would think Mercenaries is a no-brainer at this point.

Blech.

hellbent · Post by **hellbent** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:14 pm

DivotMaker wrote:
Leebo33 wrote:If they are going to give this type of effort, they should just quit while they are ahead. I think it's more disappointing to see lists like this than if they just dropped the entire concept and focused on something more useful.
Exactly. What a continued disappointment.

Amen to that. It's not so much some of the "top sellers" that they included (Doom 3, Lego Star Wars, Spider-Man, Battlefront), but what was NOT included. A lot of people, not just sports gamers, sold their old 30 lb x-brick to help offset the purchase of the 360, especially when it was made clear that "many top sellers would be BC".

With respect to the NFL 2k series, why the lack of bc? If it's because EA currently holds the contract with the NFL and ESPN, then fine, please just say so, we'll get over it. If there's a tech issue that prevents it, then say so. Just say something. I don't get the secrecy around the updates, the info is more closely guarded than a government file. Maybe they could find work in DC or Baghdad after MS disbands the BC project? Anyway, I'm sure I'm probably wrong, but isn't NFL 2k5 the highest-selling game for the XBOX that is NOT BC?

The same goes for the other strange omissions, for example:

Spider-Man made it, but not Spidey 2 or Ultimate Spider-Man, both newer and much improved titles. No X-Men titles of any kind, especially strange with a brand new game / movie on the market. Why do that when you can promote those "top selling" movie titles Bad Boys 2 or Minority Report?

SOE made it, every other Rockstar game is on there, but not The Warriors, the 2nd latest title in their library aside from Table Tennis, and I believe, a "top seller".

MLB Slugfest 04 - didn't 06 just come out for the XBOX? That might help Midway sell a few more copies.

NCAA football, I get it, they're releasing 07 in a few weeks. No problem there, but why not NCAA Baseball? The price of that title is dropping like a lead sinker everywhere - wouldn't making it bc give it some legs? Same with Arena Football, Blitz the League, and others currently limping towards the bargain bin.

Then they're the MS Sports . Amped and Amped 2 made it, as did Rallisport. Maybe High Voltage and the Links team guys are bitter about getting canned and won't return the bc team's calls. Or they're working for Sega and EA and can't offer support now anyway. Whatever, it'd be nice to know if it'll never happen.

I don't think anyone is asking for MS to take care of BC to suit their personal list, but if you're going to overlook more recent XBOX releases and top sellers to instead work on BC for some of the total dogs on that list, you have to expect people to be a little perplexed.

Anyway, the update list is STILL more impressive, by far, than any release since the original one was posted. I just wish they were a little more forthcoming about the omissions of MS-exclusives, newer releases, and top selling titles - the very games customers were expecting would have a greatest chance of becoming BC as MS led us to believe pre-launch. Oh well, guess I'm just a selfish bastard who doesn't understand the greatness that is Bad Mutha Truckers!

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:15 pm

Kazuya wrote:I guess M$ should personally ask members of DSP which games to add to the BC list...

I don't have access to sales numbers so I can't use that list, but 32 of the top 100 Xbox games as per gamerankings.com are now bc. 32% is a big fat F IMO.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:18 pm

Kazuya wrote:I guess M$ should personally ask members of DSP which games to add to the BC list...

Oh c'mon. I'm as much a dissenter as the next guy but this list sucks as does their backwards compatiblity plain and simple compared to their competitors. Even the games they manage to emulate have major glitches and don't play the way they use to. Their is something to complain about and it has nothing to do with DSP and their take on it. This isn't a case of whining. They are the one's who promised their grade A effort. This doesn't feel like Grade A effort and if that's the case then fine, they should just admit it.

Never will happen of course for PR reasons.

EDIT: And it's not like it's just DSP

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread. ... ost3610847

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:34 pm

reeche wrote:
Kazuya wrote:I guess M$ should personally ask members of DSP which games to add to the BC list...

Oh c'mon. I'm as much a dissenter as the next guy but this list sucks as does their backwards compatiblity plain and simple compared to their competitors. Even the games they manage to emulate have major glitches and don't play the way they use to. Their is something to complain about and it has nothing to do with DSP and their take on it. This isn't a case of whining.

Unless this is the absolute last B/C update that we'll see, it absolutely is a case of whining. Again, there is no game that has sold 1:1 with the consoles that everybody wants emulated. s***, a game that I thought sucked, Spider-Man the movie, sold 1.25 million copies... good enough to make the top 20 of all-time Xbox games ever sold. You can't make everyone happy unless you release an update that has ALL the games. To say the list sucks because you don't like the games on it is whining to the nth degree. Being upset with the entire backwards compatibility project as a whole is different of course. I was never talking about quality of emulation or promises kept by M$.

To me it would be far stupider to waste time emulating NFL 2K5 -- an old-ass football game with out of date rosters that only the hardest, hard-core numbnut would bother to update -- than a stand-alone game like Spider-Man, no matter how shitty I think Spider-Man may be.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:04 pm

All I can say about xbox sports games that have come out this year like MVP NCAA and Arena football is that they must have been too difficult to emulate. The quotes I have seen about these 2 games and BC say that "EA wants it and Microsoft wants it." At this point I doubt we will see them - it would make no sense as both seasons are going to be over by the next update. I just hope that at least MVP NCAA makes the cut next year and gets made for both the PS3 and the 360.

The one game other than sports games that I thought might make the list is Morrowind - based on how popular Oblivion has been on the 360. My feeling again is that this one must be a tough one to make back compatible. I guess if I want to play it it would make more sense for me to pick it up for the PC since the graphics would be better and the mods are plenty.

And while I personally would love to see the new NCAA Football xbox game back compat, that will never happen either. An argument could be made that EA has stated that the games are different for each of the consoles and consequently it is not the same game as the 360 version, but from a practical standpoint, I doubt either MS or EA would want to see this game BC and competing with the 360 version.

So for me, BC is pretty much a dead issue. By the time the next one comes out, I the fall sports games will be released and the fall 360 lineup looks pretty good for other games.

I will give MS a push for BC. They have got over 200+ games done, and it is not their fault that I did not have much interest in all but a handful of them. The lesson learned is that the Sony approach of using the hardware is the way to go - but that was not an option for MS for this generation since they went from Intel/nVidia to IBM/ATI.

Slumberland · Post by **Slumberland** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:53 pm

I know I slammed MS for the recent update, but having never played Doom 3, I picked it up on the cheap. The game looks FANTASTIC running on the 360. I got sucked in pretty quick.

If they'd just give me Mercenaries and MVP NCAA...