There it is, $500

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Mon May 15, 2006 7:01 am

From Major Nelson:

Sony has said that their online service is free but on the slide they showed during the briefing, where they listed all of the free services, I did not see match-making or online play mentioned. Thus, it seems quite likely that Sony's free service is merely the equivalent of the Xbox Live Silver level of membership, which is also free. So, if I’m right then Sony’s cost advantage for their online service is non-existent.

Sony would not bait an switch their loyal customers now, would they? I mean, when they say 'free' they mean free, right?

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Mon May 15, 2006 7:19 am

kevinpars wrote:From Major Nelson:
Sony has said that their online service is free but on the slide they showed during the briefing, where they listed all of the free services, I did not see match-making or online play mentioned. Thus, it seems quite likely that Sony's free service is merely the equivalent of the Xbox Live Silver level of membership, which is also free. So, if I’m right then Sony’s cost advantage for their online service is non-existent.
Sony would not bait an switch their loyal customers now, would they? I mean, when they say 'free' they mean free, right?

I sincerely hope this is not true. If it is, Sony is creating a great deal of needless damage control.

I will add this to my list of things to be watching for...

1) Free Online Service

2) All games at 1080p @ 60 fps

3) Full 100% Backward Compatibility

4) What the EXACT differences between the $499 and $599 units are

etc.....

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:05 am

Zeppo wrote:I don't believe Sony thinks that Blu-ray will help sell the PS3 as much as they want the PS3 to help install Blu-ray into people's homes.

But isn't Blu-Ray part of the "fine dining experience" that makes the PS3 so attractive, according to Kuturagi? Shouldn't it be a selling point?

My point is that people need to know distinguishing features if they're going to shell out $600 for a console. If one of those features isn't known, then how will it be a selling point?

Brand equity is strong, but it only goes so far.

Take care,
PK

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:32 am

Sony is always upfront with everything they do. They are not evil like MS.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Mon May 15, 2006 10:43 am

pk500 wrote:
Zeppo wrote:I don't believe Sony thinks that Blu-ray will help sell the PS3 as much as they want the PS3 to help install Blu-ray into people's homes.
But isn't Blu-Ray part of the "fine dining experience" that makes the PS3 so attractive, according to Kuturagi? Shouldn't it be a selling point?

My point is that people need to know distinguishing features if they're going to shell out $600 for a console. If one of those features isn't known, then how will it be a selling point?

Brand equity is strong, but it only goes so far.

Take care,
PK

I think it's a combination of the two, and two different markets, really. There are those who care, who are into technology and home theater who will know about Blu-ray (and be coveting it, I might add), and will know that the PS3 will be the cheapest route to getting a Blu-ray player in their HT setup.

But I think the vast majority of folks out there fit the mold of the guys Boom wrote about in his post, those Madden guys, who will get the Sony machine because. . . well, I'm not sure there is a real reason, but will get it just because it's the PS3. I think there are a lot more people out there who will be on the PS3 bandwagon just because of brand loyalty, ignorance of the facts, or momentum. Or MGS or some other 'hot' Sony exclusive. Especially in Japan.

This group makes up a much larger percentage of the market than the audio/video-philes who know about and care about Blu-ray.

I think Sony is making a mistake by pricing the machine too high, and will loose out on a lot of people who would buy the machine at $150 cheaper. Then again, how much can they afford to lose on each machine?

Plus, as important as world domination may be to Sony, the fact is that they will have all of Japan with PS3s in their homes, a built-in market for Blu-ray discs that will give it a big advantage over HD-DVD. I think Sony is so sure of dominance in the game sector that they feel they can use the PS3 as a sort of Trojan Horse to get their Blu-ray into homes. I also think they will lose a lot more of the N.A. and European market share than they expect due to the high price.

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Mon May 15, 2006 11:08 am

I don't think the price will effect sales at all within the first year. I find it hard to believe before the end of 2007, you will be able to walk into any store and buy a PS3. There just won't be enough of them to go around.

When supply catches up with and passes demand, I would not be suprised to see a 100 buck price drop so these things will go flying off the shelf again.

I own a 360, multuple ps3s and xboxes.. a cube.. and will own a ps3/Wii. However, out of all my friends, I am the only one with an xbox(except for modded ones). And out of all of those guys, they are all waiting on the PS3.

I just hope the failure rate on the PS3/Wii is better than that of the 360.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon May 15, 2006 11:32 am

DivotMaker wrote: I will add this to my list of things to be watching for...

1) Free Online Service

2) All games at 1080p @ 60 fps

The only thing they've said is that they will leave online open or up to the developers how they want to handle online. Some could try to charge or they could do it for free. Most games will be hosted from one of the consoles, not some dedicated servers.

It would help if the gaming media nailed down questions like this, ask specific questions rather than let these ambiguities hang in the air so the Major Nelson's of the world can spread their FUD.

As for 1080p60, I never saw a claim that ALL games would be 1080p. Do you have a link?

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:04 pm

wco81 wrote:
The only thing they've said is that they will leave online open or up to the developers how they want to handle online. Some could try to charge or they could do it for free. Most games will be hosted from one of the consoles, not some dedicated servers.

That is not what has been reported coming out of E3 and before E3. Sony had one or two press releases claiming that their online interface would blow XBL out of the water and that it would be "free". IIRC, at least one of those press releases was linked here at DSP. Ironically, it seems that this aspect is very muddy right now as no one seems to be able to get Sony to commit to anything publicly. Yet they don't mind claiming they will blow the doors off of XBL and that is okay....

wco81 wrote:It would help if the gaming media nailed down questions like this, ask specific questions rather than let these ambiguities hang in the air so the Major Nelson's of the world can spread their FUD.

Maybe they ARE asking those questions and maybe Sony is not answering. And why do you assume that Major Nelson's is spreading FUD? Maybe they DID get an answer. I don't expect Sony to clarify too much of anything until we get into October or so. This way, they keep people speculating.

wco81 wrote:As for 1080p60, I never saw a claim that ALL games would be 1080p. Do you have a link?

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/614/614661p1.html

Can't put my hands on the "60 fps for every game" claim, but if I come across it I will post it here. They have mentioned this at least a couple of times when being interviewed for a piece comparing PS3 and the 360.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:23 pm

I am not sure I would call it "FUD". Sure, Major Nelson is an MS homie, but come on, let's be realistic:

Sony comes out and announces that they will have an online service for free and implies that it will be as good or better than Xbox Live but it will be free unlike the MS version that costs $50.00 a year.

But based on what has been said (and not said) by Sony, match-making or online play will be left up to the developer and will not be part of the Sony service. "Sony will encourage publishers to integrate online capabilities across different games, but third-party publishers will be able to run their own servers as well." was the way one article put it. In other words, Sony will encourage companies like EA and Ubisoft to get together and spend a ton of money putting an integrated online community together. Sure, I can see that happening!

Part of the free "Silver" membership for 360 is the ability to download demos and purchase a variety of arcade games - some old school and some new stuff from smaller companies. At E3, MS announced that there will be exclusive downloadable content from Rockstar as part of the Grand Theft Auto release.

Did Sony give any facts or details or even mention partners for their own foray into online? Did they mention any arcade games that will be available at the time of release? Did they announce any partnerships with innovative gaming companies chomping at the bit to get their content on Sony's network?

Sony implies a lot without saying anything that can come back to haunt them. Great free online service, mucho downloads, free multiplayer gaming, 100% backward compatibility with PS2 games, 1080p games running at high frame rates. Will we see this in November and if not, when?

Sure, MS did the same thing and backward compatibility did come back and bite them, but they also delivered on a lot of their promises. Sony may deliver the goods as well, but based on their track record, I would not bet on it - especially when it comes to online.

The only certainty about the Sony PS3 release is that they will sell a ton of consoles. That is pretty much a given.

I am not an MS homer. I made a decision that for this generation I was going to be an early adopter and see life from the other side of the fence. It it had been Sony I would have bit the bullet and spent the money.

I can understand the attitute that many gamers on this site have as far as next gen gaming. I understand waiting and seeing what shakes out, or simply deciding that the money is better spent on family, or a bike, or a retirement fund. But I just don't understand the attitude of waiting for the mighty Sony to bring true next generation gaming to the world. While those people wait, I will be gaming. NCAA in less than 2 months, Madden not long after, then the NBA, NHL and college hoops games. Hell, I will probably still be working through Oblivion.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:25 pm

Again, I don't know if they said anything about blowing XBL out of the water. They just claimed it would have such and such features. Those have nothing to do with actual gaming.

As for 1080p, whatever IGN was told, every game will not be 1080p. They don't have a mandate like MS (720p and 2xAA), which BTW, has already not been met by several games, including PGR3.

It's capable of 1080p output whereas the other consoles are not. But if you ask every developer, they prefer to have the discretion to render at the lower resolution with more shader effects.

One of the best games demo'd, Heavenly Sword, is being rendered at 720p.

So anyways, if you're looking for ammo against Sony, you got them but guess what, companies are going to hype their products and Sony isn't unique in that regard.

You know it's not just consoles but in a lot of other product categories, it's amazing how people get worked up over supposed lies about products. But you don't see the same level of outrage when politicians lie over far more important matters.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:31 pm

wco81 wrote: But you don't see the same level of outrage when politicians lie over far more important matters.

Well that depends on your definition of the word "of"....

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:00 pm

kevinpars wrote:I am not sure I would call it "FUD". Sure, Major Nelson is an MS homie, but come on, let's be realistic:

Sony comes out and announces that they will have an online service for free and implies that it will be as good or better than Xbox Live but it will be free unlike the MS version that costs $50.00 a year.

But based on what has been said (and not said) by Sony, match-making or online play will be left up to the developer and will not be part of the Sony service. "Sony will encourage publishers to integrate online capabilities across different games, but third-party publishers will be able to run their own servers as well." was the way one article put it. In other words, Sony will encourage companies like EA and Ubisoft to get together and spend a ton of money putting an integrated online community together. Sure, I can see that happening!

Part of the free "Silver" membership for 360 is the ability to download demos and purchase a variety of arcade games - some old school and some new stuff from smaller companies. At E3, MS announced that there will be exclusive downloadable content from Rockstar as part of the Grand Theft Auto release.

Did Sony give any facts or details or even mention partners for their own foray into online? Did they mention any arcade games that will be available at the time of release? Did they announce any partnerships with innovative gaming companies chomping at the bit to get their content on Sony's network?

Sony implies a lot without saying anything that can come back to haunt them. Great free online service, mucho downloads, free multiplayer gaming, 100% backward compatibility with PS2 games, 1080p games running at high frame rates. Will we see this in November and if not, when?

Sure, MS did the same thing and backward compatibility did come back and bite them, but they also delivered on a lot of their promises. Sony may deliver the goods as well, but based on their track record, I would not bet on it - especially when it comes to online.

The only certainty about the Sony PS3 release is that they will sell a ton of consoles. That is pretty much a given.

I am not an MS homer. I made a decision that for this generation I was going to be an early adopter and see life from the other side of the fence. It it had been Sony I would have bit the bullet and spent the money.

I can understand the attitute that many gamers on this site have as far as next gen gaming. I understand waiting and seeing what shakes out, or simply deciding that the money is better spent on family, or a bike, or a retirement fund. But I just don't understand the attitude of waiting for the mighty Sony to bring true next generation gaming to the world. While those people wait, I will be gaming. NCAA in less than 2 months, Madden not long after, then the NBA, NHL and college hoops games. Hell, I will probably still be working through Oblivion.

Major Nelson is going off of one slide. Because it wasn't listed, ergo it must not be free? The honest thing would have been to say it's uncertain, not to conclude that people who buy the PS3 will be paying the same as the XBL subscriptions.

As for third-parties, EA already has servers up. Not sure how Ubisoft handled PS2 online games or whether they even had any (did the PS2 versions of Splinter Cell have online play?). Yeah maybe they will charge where they haven't before. But then, they could also charge XBL gamers a fee above and beyond the XBL subscription that MS charges. Anything is possible.

As for demo downloads and arcade games, I don't know what they promised. If they don't have these things, PS3 online is a failure? I'd like to see game demos but I could care less about arcade games.

The X360 is a legitimate next-gen console. Of course Sony is going to say they have a better product. Is MS saying their product isn't better, at least a better value?

Anyways, the X360 will probably be the most popular system at DSP so you're preaching to the choir. If you're happy with that choice, no need to get worked up about another product.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:03 pm

wco81 wrote: If you're happy with that choice, no need to get worked up about another product.

What if you were planning to buy both as most of us did this generation?

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:19 pm

XXXIV wrote:
wco81 wrote: If you're happy with that choice, no need to get worked up about another product.
What if you were planning to buy both as most of us did this generation?

Wait for the price drops. It seemed like a lot of people got Xboxes as second consoles after the price dropped to $199, only about 6 months after launch.

Maybe we'll get lucky and see quick price drops.

Anyways, there probably won't be big games for the PS3 until fall of 2007, with most PS3 launch games already on the X360.

Or I guess the Wii will have exclusive content this year.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:52 pm

I guess it is something about the Sony arrogance level that gets to me. For a company that has screwed up as much as they have the last few years, I would think a little humility would be in order. Lots of companies push their products, but only Ken Kutaragi says stuff like this:

Microsoft is trailing behind us, but they are not a threat. They are good at improving [on products], but we will be advancing to the next level with revolutionary technology.”

As for MS, I certainly have no stake in whether the 360 succeeds other than i own one and want good games to come out on it. As a company I have never particularly liked MS, and when Bill Gates supported Bush for president because he knew it would mean an end to the his legal problems and even went as far as retaining Ralph Reed as a consultant.... well let's just say it makes it hard for me to pay money for anything MS puts out the door.

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Mon May 15, 2006 2:04 pm

well let's just say it makes it hard for me to pay money for anything MS puts out the door.

I feel the same way.. and even hate giving my money to Sony since they are members of the RIAA.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Mon May 15, 2006 2:09 pm

kevinpars wrote:I guess it is something about the Sony arrogance level that gets to me. For a company that has screwed up as much as they have the last few years...

Not sure what you're talking about, but if screwing up is selling 100 million units of their last two consoles, I'm guessing they're shooting for outright calamity this time. Sony has mostly good will (outside of I guess the copy protection with some CDs that affected very few people) with the American consumer, with plenty of recognition in phones, digital cameras, home video and audio, and especially televisions and PlayStation. There is no perception that Sony is "arrogant". If we walked across America and talked to everyone we saw, we might find one person who could ID Ken Kutaragi and it would be 50/50 if that one person knew anything he had said. Besides, why let a few figureheads soil you on what is no doubt a company filled with hard workers who make good products. I don't let the egotistical, moronic ramblings of Peter Moore, "Major" Nelson or Bill Gate$ sway me from using M$ products at all. They're *supposed* to play up their side and downgrade the other guys.

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Mon May 15, 2006 2:21 pm

wco81 wrote:Again, I don't know if they said anything about blowing XBL out of the water. They just claimed it would have such and such features. Those have nothing to do with actual gaming.

Uh, actually they did say as much earlier this year as the 360 XBL interface was receiving glowing reviews.

wco81 wrote:As for 1080p, whatever IGN was told, every game will not be 1080p. They don't have a mandate like MS (720p and 2xAA), which BTW, has already not been met by several games, including PGR3.

I have seen them claim 60fps/1080p on more than one occasion. The link I posted above states the following:

UPDATE: We have just been updated by our away team at the SCEA conference that not only will 1080p be supported by the system, but that this is considered the standard resolution for the system. Every game for the PS3 will be in incredible, indelible, indubitable HD.

Not sure what you are missing there....

wco81 wrote:It's capable of 1080p output whereas the other consoles are not. But if you ask every developer, they prefer to have the discretion to render at the lower resolution with more shader effects.

VERY much a "cart before the horse" feature if you look at the current and near-term projected marketplace. While I am all for advanced features, I don't see this being a "needed" feature for at least the next 5 or so years. Plus, I am highly suspicious that there is much difference if any between 1080p and 1080i which the 360 is quite capable of managing in most of the games I have played...

wco81 wrote:So anyways, if you're looking for ammo against Sony, you got them but guess what, companies are going to hype their products and Sony isn't unique in that regard.

I am not "looking for ammo". Sony is providing it graciously.

wco81 wrote:You know it's not just consoles but in a lot of other product categories, it's amazing how people get worked up over supposed lies about products. But you don't see the same level of outrage when politicians lie over far more important matters.

Actually, you are comparing very different issues. Comparing lies that a company makes about a product that a user actually PURCHASES is a tad bit different than lies that a politician makes. Both are bad business and leave a bad taste in the mouths of consumers. However, when comparing a politician who can only be "exchanged or returned" (removed from office) every 2-4 years and only by a majority vote to a product that can be "exchanged or returned" immediately is quite a stretch. Not to mention the product is paid for directly with users discretionary income where the politician is simply voted for or against. Not sure where you are trying to go with the analogy but I am not quite following the logic....

If you think some of us are getting "worked up", I can only speak for myself when I say I am not getting worked up at all. I enjoy healthy debates/discussions that don't degenerate into personal attacks. At the end of the day, I have seen Sony make a number of claims in response mainly to MS and the 360 even though they would love you to believe they are not worried about their competitor with the multi-billion dollar bankroll. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but they aren't fooling me one bit. If they come through on their public claims and the things that they "hint" they can do, then their product will be truly worthy of the price they are asking for it. But, as I have said repeatedly in the past, I will believe it when I see it....

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Mon May 15, 2006 2:38 pm

Kazuya wrote:Sony has mostly good will (outside of I guess the copy protection with some CDs that affected very few people) with the American consumer, with plenty of recognition in phones, digital cameras, home video and audio, and especially televisions and PlayStation.

I have had to replace 2 PS2's and am on the third one now. I bought my daughter a new Sony digital camera for Christmas this past year. I have already had to replace it due to a catastrophic hardware failure caused by a product DEFECT. It took me FIVE Sony HDTV sets this past Christmas to get one which was acceptable in picture quality and it still is not as good as it should be due to a DESIGN DEFECT. Sorry, but I don't buy your "Sony has good will" nonsense.

Kazuya wrote:
There is no perception that Sony is "arrogant"

Statements like this exemplify the "Sony-can-do-no-wrong" mentality. You refuse to acknowledge anything negative that Sony does. For you to make such a statement just means you are a victim of your own myopia towards Sony and have bought their hype and arrogance hook, line, and sinker....

Kazuya wrote:I don't let the egotistical, moronic ramblings of Peter Moore, "Major" Nelson or Bill Gate$ sway me from using M$ products at all. They're *supposed* to play up their side and downgrade the other guys.

So the competition is moronic? Your Sony-induced myopic comments know no bounds.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Mon May 15, 2006 4:10 pm

When I say that Sony is screwing up, I don't really mean the copy protection issue or the fake movie reviewer issue, I am talking about the bottom line, as in their company stock has sucked the last few years. Their music division about hit rock bottom, and their once strong audio hardware division has fallen on hard times as Sony walkmans have been replaced by Ipods.

And if this isn't hyperbole, then I don't know what is:

'It's very real,' one source tells us. 'They (Sony) are dead serious about it. They've declared, and I quote, a 'full-on assault' on the latest version of Xbox Live.'"

"They are committed to matching Xbox Live [on the 360] feature for feature and then some."

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon May 15, 2006 4:19 pm

This thread is stuck in the mud. No traction, no thread. Locked.