TV Question - HDTV gurus?

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:28 pm

I currently have a 36" Wega that is a few years old. TV is in great shape and have no problems with the picture quality. My question is how much better do games look in HDTV? Is 480P drastically better then 480I? I ask that since many of the games only offer that. ESPN Football is the only game I have that shows to does 720.
 
 I don´t watch many movies and the 16:9 aspect ratio does nothing for me. I am assuming you have to be in this ratio when playing with the HDTV mode on? The TV I would be looking at to fit in the entertainment center would be a 32" Wega that is HDTV ready and 4:3 ratio. KV 32HS510
 
 So is it worth getting a smaller TV for the HDTV support for someone who only cares about the gaming aspect?

tsunami · Post by **tsunami** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:52 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2004-01-13 13:28, bdoughty wrote:
 I currently have a 36" Wega that is a few years old. TV is in great shape and have no problems with the picture quality. My question is how much better do games look in HDTV? Is 480P drastically better then 480I? I ask that since many of the games only offer that. ESPN Football is the only game I have that shows to does 720.
 
 I don´t watch many movies and the 16:9 aspect ratio does nothing for me. I am assuming you have to be in this ratio when playing with the HDTV mode on? The TV I would be looking at to fit in the entertainment center would be a 32" Wega that is HDTV ready and 4:3 ratio. KV 32HS510
 
 So is it worth getting a smaller TV for the HDTV support for someone who only cares about the gaming aspect?
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 IMO, games in Progressive Scan (as well as DVDs) look noticeably better than standard 480i. Most TVs nowadays that offer 480p also offer what´s called "anamorphic squeeze" or some "widescreen mode" that also enhances the picture when viewing Progressive widescreen content (I can explain further if you want). Also, keep in mind that you will have to run component cables from your consoles to your TV/receiver if you plan to use 480p or 720p (if you aren´t already using them). And, 480p doesn´t always mean that the games are in 16x9 or widescreen format. Case in point is most Gamecube games and some PS2 games...they run in Progressive scan but not necessarily widescreen.
 
 If 16x9, DVD watching, and HDTV are not all that important to you, I wouldn´t bother with the upgrade (or downgrade in terms of viewing area). It sounds like you are happy with the setup you currently have and the bigger full screen is better. Personally, I think an HDTV set is the way to go, but it doesn´t sound like it would offer you any benefits right now.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:10 pm

Thanks for the info. This TV has a 16:9 enhanced mode that you can turn on. Is this the same thing as "anamorphic squeeze"? I could have sworn I saw it refered to it as that. I do run component for the Xbox but have never tried this aspect.

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:23 pm

I have tried a few xbox games in 480p on big (32, 36 and 52") HDTV TVs that friends and relatives have.
 
 I have a 36" non-HDTV sony wega. I run the Xbox into the component video inputs on it, no switching through an amplifier or anything.
 
 IMHO, there is not enough difference in 480p GAMES graphics for me to think I need an HDTV for games. If they could run 720p that might make the difference, but I haven´t seen a game at 720p yet.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:30 pm

Yes anamorphic squeeze, 16:9 mode, widescreen mode, vertical compression are all the same thing. Basically, it reduces the raster to the area between the black bars.
 
 Note that this is not the same as watching a widescreen movie on a regular TV. There, the electron gun in your tube is actually paining the black bars whereas with 16:9 mode, all the display is going on squeezed in between those bars.
 
 I checked out some Wegas a couple of years ago. One thing that bothered me was I could see scan lines when watching TV. But when you got an anamorphic or widescreen enhanced DVD like Toy Story 2 and activated the vertical compression on the Wegas, it was noticeably sharper.
 
 As for the larger question of HDTVs, what you´re getting is like a multisync monitor which supports interlaced or progressive mode, depending on the signal. HDTVs are the future and I think there are few large-screens (larger than 36 inch tubes) that are not HDTV-capable now.
 
 For gaming, I tried some 480p games on the PS2 and I didn´t see too much a difference. One reason is that with my HDTV, it internally scales all sources to an HDTV resolution. Now, Xbox probably handles that better and it also has 720p games and one 1080i game, which would be much better tests of HDTV gaming (good website is hdtvarcade.com and avsforum.com).
 
 But ultimately, better HDTV support will come with the next generation of consoles. Right at about that time, you should have a lot more affordable HDTV sets. In fact, at the CES show in Las Vegas last week, Intel announced plans to get into the business of making the chips used to make thin screens (not plasma which is analog but digital microdisplays, specifically LCOS). They claim in about a year or two, their chips will enable 50" sets, not as thin as plasmas because they are in fact projectors which weigh well under 100 pounds, to sell for $1800.
 
 If you´re main thing is gaming, definitely wait a couple of years. Even if you got an HDTV capable set, you´d have to spend several hundred dollars to get an HDTV tuner. Plus, if you mostly watch non-HDTV programming, you´ll notice how bad the picture quality is on an HDTV set.

tsunami · Post by **tsunami** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:52 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2004-01-13 14:10, bdoughty wrote:
 Thanks for the info. This TV has a 16:9 enhanced mode that you can turn on. Is this the same thing as "anamorphic squeeze"? I could have sworn I saw it refered to it as that. I do run component for the Xbox but have never tried this aspect.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Yes, it should be the same. Just keep in mind that you should only enable mode that for widescreen games, othewise the picture will be squished.
 
 If you´re current TV already has that mode, then it already runs 480p and it probably doesn´t make much sense to upgrade now just to get HDTV (which would be considered 720p or 1080i).

tsunami · Post by **tsunami** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:56 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 Even if you got an HDTV capable set, you´d have to spend several hundred dollars to get an HDTV tuner. Plus, if you mostly watch non-HDTV programming, you´ll notice how bad the picture quality is on an HDTV set.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Not necessarily. I got an HDTV box from Time Warner Cable for free when I switched to digital cable. I was skeptical at first, but I am amazed at the quality. Now, I just have to wait for Time Warner to get ESPN HD and MSG HD and I´ll be set.
 
 BTW, non HD broadcasts look fine to me. No noticeable degradation from my previous TV. Although I have heard stories to the contrary, as you pointed out.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:01 pm

"If you´re current TV already has that mode, then it already runs 480p and it probably doesn´t make much sense to upgrade now just to get HDTV (which would be considered 720p or 1080i)."
 
 Factually incorrect.
 
 A normal TV using the NTSC standard paints even or odd scan lines. That is, interlaces the display output.
 
 480p means progressive, meaning the even and odd scan lines are drawn in one pass.
 
 Unless you have a digital TV (there are some Samsungs which only do 480p), you are not getting progressive output.
 
 Now, an NTSC TV can still do anamorphic or widescreen mode. What that means is that the display area is squeezed down, compressing the same amount of pictorial data in a smaller space. But that is not the same as 480p.

tsunami · Post by **tsunami** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:08 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 On 2004-01-13 15:01, wco81 wrote:
 "If you´re current TV already has that mode, then it already runs 480p and it probably doesn´t make much sense to upgrade now just to get HDTV (which would be considered 720p or 1080i)."
 
 Factually incorrect.
 
 A normal TV using the NTSC standard paints even or odd scan lines. That is, interlaces the display output.
 
 480p means progressive, meaning the even and odd scan lines are drawn in one pass.
 
 Unless you have a digital TV (there are some Samsungs which only do 480p), you are not getting progressive output.
 
 Now, an NTSC TV can still do anamorphic or widescreen mode. What that means is that the display area is squeezed down, compressing the same amount of pictorial data in a smaller space. But that is not the same as 480p.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Technically, yes, they are not one and the same. But, I have never seen or heard of a TV that had a "widescreen mode" that didn´t offer 480p, which is why I lumped them together. If there are, then I stand corrected. As far as I know, this "squeeze" option only started getting advertised for TVs that already output 480p.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:09 pm

Thanks guy apprecaite the info and keep it coming. It looks like the best bet right now is to hold off and keep letting the prices drop.
 
 Of course that woiuld require saving my tax refund for another year. Hmm any investment tips <IMG SRC="images/forum/icons/icon_smile.gif"> Kidding of course.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:14 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>Technically, yes, they are not one and the same. But, I have never seen or heard of a TV that had a "widescreen mode" that didn´t offer 480p, which is why I lumped them together. If there are, then I stand corrected. As far as I know, this "squeeze" option only started getting advertised for TVs that already output 480p. </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 I am going to give this a try tonight just to see what happens. I will use ESPN NFL football. Is there anything I should look for that would tell me if it is working or not? I recall you saying if it is squished it will not work.

tsunami · Post by **tsunami** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:25 pm

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><BLOCKQUOTE>
 I am going to give this a try tonight just to see what happens. I will use ESPN NFL football. Is there anything I should look for that would tell me if it is working or not? I recall you saying if it is squished it will not work.
 </BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
 
 Unless you´re TV lets you know what type signal it is receiving, other than looking at the picture quality, you won´t know if it´s 480p or not. As far as the "widescreen mode"...it should work regardless of the source. But, if it is not widescreen content then it will distort the picture.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:48 pm

"Technically, yes, they are not one and the same. But, I have never seen or heard of a TV that had a "widescreen mode" that didn´t offer 480p, which is why I lumped them together. If there are, then I stand corrected. As far as I know, this "squeeze" option only started getting advertised for TVs that already output 480p. "
 
 They are two different ways of improving pictures over standard NTSC or analog. The Sony Wega sets are not 480p but they do offer the widescreen mode. The Sony HS or High Scan sets are digital sets, capable of progressive modes.
 
 The two things kind of came together in the market at the same time, hence the confusion.
 
 To enjoy widescreen mode with DVDs, you have to have widescreen DVDs, not just letterboxed DVDs. To enjoy 480p or progressive scan, you need a digital TV and a progressive scan player or have your digital TV upscale the image to 480p.
 
 As for games, 480p games are not going to work on that Sony Wega. What will work is the widescreen modes of games. You set your console to 16:9 mode (and your TV too) and you can use a game like Madden. Then the Madden Classic camera for instance will show more of the field towards the sidelines than it would on a normal 4:3 TV.
 
 On my 34XBR910, which is a 16:9 screeen, you can choose the ace set with 3 WRs and you will actually see a bit more of the field towards the sidelines from the slot WR in Madden Classic. You will still not see the wideouts. Without the widescreen mode, that slot WR would be at the edge of the screen and you would only see a part of his body.
 
 So if the widescreen mode on the Wega is going to work at all, it will work with widescreen games. But it won´t make the game any sharper necessarily. For that, you do need an HDTV set and progressive output games.

rheller · Post by **rheller** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:55 pm

BD,
 
 I have the exact same TV that you have. About a month ago I was playing with the "Enhanced Mode" that you´re talking about. IMO it does make the games look much better, but in return it gives you a smaller picture. (Beware what mode you are running when playing games.) I found that for whatever reason, movie mode produced the best text when playing games (ie Links)
 
 On a separate note also watch out when you view widescreen movies when using the "Enhanced Mode", the picture will be upgraded but the picture will be even smaller.
 
 I´ve also tried to set the XBOX to dispaly 480p and was unable to play any games....just a little heads up.
 
 I like the enhanced mode and now I don´t want to play games or watch movies without it.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:07 pm

rheller
 
 Thanks and long time no talk. I will try the switch because the text is horrible in Links (can´t read the wind at all). Will report back tonight with the results.

rheller · Post by **rheller** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:31 pm

Yup it´s been a while! Take it easy.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:12 am

It worked... First time I ever adjusted anything in the menu. One thing I did note was changing one of the settings (edge sharpness?) fixed the problems I had reading text in Links. The widescreen mode was an interesting change that will take some time getting used to.

RustedWalleye · Post by **RustedWalleye** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:31 am

Is the 36" Wega a decent tv? I am seriously considering getting one. Not sure I want to spend the extra $700 on HDTV as I dont think I´d use it anyways. I havent heard or seen much on this one and it´d fit very well in my living room as my current tv is replacing another that went bad after 15 years.

bdoughty · Post by **bdoughty** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:56 am

Works perfectly for me, I got the cheaper version w/o the picture and picture.
 
 <A HREF="http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... d=cat03002" TARGET="_blank">http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... at03002</A>
 
 That is a similar on to the one I got a few years ago and is a few hundred bucks cheaper now. BB is $999.99 but a local Sony dealer can beat that and deliver it. Only knock to this TV is it weighs in at 220 pounds.