Kaz, honestly, I don't think there's anything remotely dirty about the way these Pistons play defense. If you cherrypick specific plays over time for any team you'll find a handful of nasty plays, but the "Bad Boy" Pistons these guys aren't, know what I mean?
Anyway, it's tough to pick any member of the starting five and argue the merits of one over the other because they're all so crucial to the team's success. Big Ben is the guy whose energy the rest of the team feeds off of. If he's hopped up, the team is too. Sheed is their only legit low-post threat and a big emotional leader for them (and half the techs he's been getting of late are complete BS, btw). Hamilton is their most consistent scorer and an underrated defender. Chauncey, hell he's just the total package on offense and defense. That's why I think he gets the MVP talk instead of guys like Ben.
---Todd
I actually am not paying attention to the NBA right now. The Sixers have made me forget basketball is still being played.
I doubt anyone saw this, but after the loss to the Bulls last week, Maurice Cheeks did his usual post game press conference. Then he just sat there for 2 minutes and you could tell he was almost about to start crying. People came over to console him. His team has basically driven him nutty. He basically came out on WIP and said nobody plays with any heart.
Programmed2Kill wrote:I actually am not paying attention to the NBA right now. The Sixers have made me forget basketball is still being played.
I doubt anyone saw this, but after the loss to the Bulls last week, Maurice Cheeks did his usual post game press conference. Then he just sat there for 2 minutes and you could tell he was almost about to start crying. People came over to console him. His team has basically driven him nutty. He basically came out on WIP and said nobody plays with any heart.
Not sure what he's crying about, but I hope he just didn't *now* realize that you can't win with a CBA roster. They just don't have enough good players to beat anybody on a consistent basis. Besides Webber and Iverson, I'm just not sure there are any NBA quality players. Igoudala, Dalmebert and Korver certainly still have a chance to develop into quality, but the jury is definitely still out.
"Whatever, I don't know why you even play yourself to that degree,
you laugh at me?" - Del
Not quite - God plays defense (see Exodus, book 14: the whole Red Sea incident).
Bah....
That critique is getting old. The number of great players who weren't necessarily great defenders is a long one with Bird and Magic on that list. Few superstars have ever had his range of skills so in my mind that takes away from the defensive argument. Truth be told he isn't even the worse in the world at it. He's just average at this stage.
http://www.whas11.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=49293&catId=49
---Lend a ***** a pencil--- Context?
I never said he wasn't a great player. LeBron is a transcendent offensive player - an incredibly gifted scorer who also has great court vision and passing ability.
Truth be told though he can't guard a garden rake. No one with his strength should be backed down by Caron Butler; no one with his speed should be taken off the dribble by Antawn Jamison.
Bringing up Bird and Magic as a examples of poor defense is somewhat erroneous, particularly as both were nowhere near LeBron in terms of athletic ability. Both were solid, if not spectacular, post defenders, where they could use strength and proper positioning to either force bad shots or dictate where the offensive player would go. Magic was fast but not quick, and had incredible trouble with small, quick guards like Isaiah Thomas. Bird was neither fast nor quick, and was regularly beat by wing forwards like Dr. J and Dominique Wilkens.
LeBron does not have their limited physical gifts, and should not be so easily beaten off the dribble or backed down. I've heard various reasons for his deficiences - my favorite being "narrow hips that hinder his lateral movement" - but the only one I can see is effort. It seems that the offensive side of the game comes very easy to him, yet he took the fair criticism of his lack of range to heart and tried to work on his 3-point shooting (though his % has gone down this year, so maybe I shouldn't cite it as a positive). I would hope that he and his coaches (as well as his fans) would take a fair look at his defense and he would work hard in the off-season to try to improve. I would love to see him at Pete Newell's big man camp, where he could learn to better his post moves on offense and defense.
LeBron scored at a higher clip than in prior years, but he also dropped in every other statistical category (not hugely, but some). He dominated the ball to an even greater extent even though his team inarguably had more talent than ever before (adding Marshall, Jones, Murray & Hughes (together they count for about one player)). It could easily be said that LeBron's statistical greatness is like Iverson's - purely due to having the ball move exclusively through his hands on the offensive end.
I think LeBron is better than that - but neither he nor his current coaches are utilizing his skills in a way that maximize his ability. Remember, everyone talked about Iverson's rare abilities as a young player, and yet we all dismiss him as me-first now. I would hate to see LeBron go down that same road - so I am harder on he and hs fans than maybe I should be. I apologize if that ruffles some feathers, but so be it.
Dave wrote:I haven't paid much attention to the NBA late in the season, can we get a Wade/LeBron matchup in round 2 if both teams win?
No, the Cavs will play Detroit in the next round, if they get past the Wizards.
Maybe LeBron will pick up some defensive pointers in a long series with the Pistons.
I'm not worried about his defense though. The most important thing is he knows he needs to improve, and nobody works harder on his game or takes a more serious approach to improving his game than this guy.
He may never be a great defender, but he'll get better, learning to play solid defense takes time. After all, he's only 21. Where was he supposed to learn to play great defense in the NBA, at St. Vincent/St. Mary's?
I watched quite a bit of action this weekend, especially because it was in HD and we got a lot of rain I really enjoy watching the Pistons play defense. They are going to be tough to beat. The LAC/Denver series looks like a real good one. I don't get to see Brand play much so I'm glad I recorded that one and watched it Sunday morning.
EZSnappin wrote:LeBron scored at a higher clip than in prior years, but he also dropped in every other statistical category (not hugely, but some). He dominated the ball to an even greater extent even though his team inarguably had more talent than ever before (adding Marshall, Jones, Murray & Hughes (together they count for about one player)). It could easily be said that LeBron's statistical greatness is like Iverson's - purely due to having the ball move exclusively through his hands on the offensive end.
I think LeBron is better than that - but neither he nor his current coaches are utilizing his skills in a way that maximize his ability. Remember, everyone talked about Iverson's rare abilities as a young player, and yet we all dismiss him as me-first now. I would hate to see LeBron go down that same road - so I am harder on he and hs fans than maybe I should be. I apologize if that ruffles some feathers, but so be it.
Your certainly entitled to your opinion of him. I'm just not as critical of his game as you. I think if I wanted to I could criticize every player about some aspect of their game. Dirk can't pass for crap. Kobe isn't a team player. Steve Nash plays no defense, etc, etc, etc. There were few perfect players who played the game outside of a mythical few. Any modern player who averages a near constant 30,7,7 while shooting nearly 50% percent will earn my respect. A guy who does it at 21 doubly so. I'm comparing Lebron to his peers and other greats who have played the game. Not a mythical Lebron should be doing X. Like I said, I don't disagree that he isn't all that he can be on defense but I watched a lot of Bird growing up and this concept they created of the great "Team Defense" Larry played always makes me laugh. If there was ever a term invented to turn a negative into a positive for a player it was that. And I love Larry Bird. I just think you look at a player and see what he does properly and if he can channel that into winning. I would argue that Lebron and the Cavs have imo. If you were to remove him from the squad and replace him with an average NBA player that team would be cellar dwellers.
http://www.whas11.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=49293&catId=49
---Lend a ***** a pencil--- Context?
Would annoy me if true. I like Steve Nash. I think he is one of the best in the game and I respect what the Suns accomplished this year, but I think there were simply more deserving candidates this year.
If true that means Nash has now won more MVP's than Shaq and more than John Stockton (who had zero of course). Something about that doesn't seem right to me.
http://www.whas11.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=49293&catId=49
---Lend a ***** a pencil--- Context?
Would annoy me if true. I like Steve Nash. I think he is one of the best in the game and I respect what the Suns accomplished this year, but I think there were simply more deserving candidates this year.
If true that means Nash has now won more MVP's than Shaq and more than John Stockton (who had zero of course). Something about that doesn't seem right to me.
That's what we will be stuck with so long as there is no criteria for the award. I'm personally baffled as to how they could have given it to anyone but Dirk. At least it's not Billups, because that would have caused me to spontaneously explode...
"Whatever, I don't know why you even play yourself to that degree,
you laugh at me?" - Del
LeBron was probably hurt by his age. It's tough to give league MVP to a 7th seed so Kobe is out. Chauncey is good, but you couldn't convince me that Detroit wouldn't be as good or better with Nash. IMO it's pretty much a toss up between Nash, Dirk, and LeBron with the tiebreaker among voters probably being Phoenix's performance without Amare.
5. Steve Nash
Kudos to him for increasing his scoring and seamlessly integrating seven new teammates into Phoenix's offense; in many ways, he was better than last season. He's the only current player whose unselfishness seems to transfer (almost by osmosis) to everyone else on his team. On the flip side, he's even worse defensively than last season; just in the past two months, I watched Shaun Livingston, Delonte West and Kidd completely outplay him in separate games, capped off by Billups simply CREMATING him in Detroit two Sundays ago. Would an MVP ever get decimated like that by someone who plays the same position? Please.
Put it this way: Nash was a cute choice last season, mainly because none of the other candidates stood out, and I could see why someone would have been swayed. (It was like ordering one of those fancy foreign beers at a bar, the ones in the heavy green bottles with the 13-letter name that you can't pronounce, only someone else is drinking it, so you say to yourself, "Ah, screw it, I'm tired of the beer I always drink, lemme try one of those.") But this year? I'm not saying he should be ignored, but if you actually end up picking him, either you're not watching enough basketball or you just want to see a white guy win back-to-back MVP's.
My problem is anybody can fluke up and win one. When a guy wins more than one you are putting him into pretty elite company. (Even then you can argue that some players should have won more than one).
I'd need to scan the All-Time MVP list but it's hard for me to imagine Nash on that list twice.
http://www.whas11.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=49293&catId=49
---Lend a ***** a pencil--- Context?
you just want to see a white guy win back-to-back MVP's.
I think it would have been even more impressive to see two different white guys win it back-to-back. That's why I was rooting for Dirk.
Personally I definitely thought it was either Kobe or Lebron but I wouldn't have had a problem with Dirk winning it either as his numbers were just as good. Everybody else like Wade, Nash, Brand were on that next tier beneath that to me.
http://www.whas11.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=49293&catId=49
---Lend a ***** a pencil--- Context?
wco81 wrote:Do people really care that much about the MVP?
It's just a title, doesn't mean a whole lot, something for fans to argue about and writers to write about. I'm sure LeBron would trade 10 MVPs for one championship.
And the bottom line is the Suns would trade Nash straightup for LeBron in a heartbeat. Same with the Lakers, they'd dump Kobe so fast for LeBron it'd make your head spin.
But there's nobody you would trade LeBron for straightup. So who's really the MVP?
wco81 wrote:Do people really care that much about the MVP?
Did Malone ever win one? Did Barkley? Did Ewing?
Lot of great players who took their teams pretty far, just not all the way.
What does an MVP mean personally to a player? Maybe some contracts with that as a trigger for bonuses.
But do people buy tickets to watch Nash? The do for Lebron, maybe Kobe (just to boo him).
Well of course these awards are just for fan debate. Winning the MVP isn't getting you elected president or anything. Yes, the average Joe Blow watching the game at home doesn't give a crap who's MVP. It's more about the hardcore fan who likes to have a debate. There is cronyism and award swapping that always exists. You could easily argue that a great player like Jordan should win it every year. But that's why it makes for good debate. The award isn't simply best player in the game which I'm pretty sure if that's the criteria Nash wouldn't win. It's a lot of intangibles and perception as Kazuya mentioned which makes it indefinable ultimately of course.
Still doesn't make me believe Nash should have won it though.
http://www.whas11.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=49293&catId=49
---Lend a ***** a pencil--- Context?
lexbur wrote:But there's nobody you would trade LeBron for straightup. So who's really the MVP?
I'd trade LeBron straight up for Tim Duncan if I was looking to win a championship *this* year but that's just me.
So would I, or at least a healthy TD. I would also trade LeBron for Kobe with no hesitation. The reason why no GM would trade LeBron straight up for anyone is because of his youth, not because he's better than everybody.
"Whatever, I don't know why you even play yourself to that degree,
you laugh at me?" - Del
It wasn't that long ago that we had threads about whether Lebron wasn't being overhyped by having his high school games broadcast on ESPN.
He still has ways to go to develop as a player but his draw (franchise players also have to fill the seats as well as the box score) is already undeniable.
Nash deserves it...but I'm a Suns fan (the only on this board really)...so you guys could probably assume that.
The only person who possibly was a better choice was Dirk. Without his running mates (Fin and Nash) he has consistently upped his game to the point where I don't think he can get much better. I hate watching him play, but that's just because I appreciate everything he does on the floor. Now, if he didn't whine so much and criticize the hell out of all of his teammates when they get beat, then maybe he'd get more love from the voters...that's where I think he gets dinged.
Hardly any of the "professional" sports guys picked the Suns to even make the playoffs, let alone be the 2nd seed in the tough west (well, 3rd technically). Steve Nash turned also-rans into studs. The only other legit NBA players on the floor every night was Shawn Marion and Raja Bell. Other than that, you've got a bunch of 5 point a night guys that end up all scoring in double digits. Sure, you can give some credit to D'Antoni, but no one can bring a team together like Steve Nash. Oh yeah...and name a guy on the Suns that's taller than 6"10? Oh wait, there isn't anyone. Name a starter taller than 6'8? Again, there isn't one. Tim Thomas sometimes, but he's just another castoff that loves playing in the Suns system. That system doesn't exist without Nash. No other point guard in the league right now that can run a system like that except for maybe Jason Kidd...and he can't shoot like Nash. Where's Amare? Another vote for Nash.
Of course I agree that no one knows what the MVP means. If it's the best player in the league, it's Kobe. If it's the best player on the best team, gotta go with Chauncy. If it's the most valuable player on the team that would suck without him, it's gotta go to Nash. Apparently the last criteria is where most of the voters heads were at.
I really enjoy watching the Pistons play defense. They are going to be tough to beat. The LAC/Denver series looks like a real good one. I don't get to see Brand play much so I'm glad I recorded that one and watched it Sunday morning.
