OT: Major League Baseball 2006 Season Discussion

AJColossal · Post by **AJColossal** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 2:37 pm

Dusty abuse...I don't know.

Look at how Ozzie worked his starters last year, especially in the playoffs. Nobody's arm fell off.

There are managers that work their pitchers a lot harder than Dusty. Sometimes I think it just comes down to being able to withstand the grind of pitching in the bigs. Either you can do it or you can't.

And apparently, Wood and Prior can't. Sad.

sfz_T-car · Post by **sfz_T-car** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:09 pm

I've been a Dusty basher in the past but I think he's taking a bad rap on the Prior and Wood injuries. He whipped Prior hard down the stretch in 2003 but I think you've got to do that in a pennant race. The Cubs have been reasonably careful with both pitchers since the initial arm problems.

I remember when Prior first came up, observers were wowed by his "perfect" mechanics. He was supposedly going to be the next Seaver and would be a workhorse for decades. Funny how things work out sometimes.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:50 pm

AJColossal wrote:Dusty abuse...I don't know.

Look at how Ozzie worked his starters last year, especially in the playoffs. Nobody's arm fell off.

One of the two mythical fallacies about the 2005 White Sox. The other is the "Ozzieball" theory.

Sox starters' pitch counts for the entire 2004 playoffs: 100 95 98 102 99 118 116 104 82 100 93 107.

Only two starts of over 110 pitches. Now granted, the quality of the starters' performances made it unnecessary for them to throw the 120+ that Ol' Man Dusty likes to see, but it's clearly erroneous to suggest that Ozzie put the whip to his boys.

Compare that with the Cubs '03 post-season starters' workloads: 124 105 133 (Prior, still on the dangerous side of the injury nexus age!! I was at this game and nearly went and strangled the a-hole myself) 86 (Clement got rocked) 121 108 116 (Prior again) 119 98 116 119 (Prior - Bartman game) 112

Toss in the facts that Prior was pitching his first full major league season and the added workload they received down the stretch (2 130+ games for Wood) and I have a hard time seeing Dusty as anything but a serial abuser.

As for the other great myth of "Ozzieball" the Sox scored almost the same % of their runs by HR in '04 as they did in '05. I don't have time now to grab the numbers, but I'll be happy to do so later.

AJColossal · Post by **AJColossal** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:50 pm

I know, I know, I'm an idiot who doesn't know what I'm talking about.

But unless I'm crazy, didn't guys used to pitch 300 innings? Didn't Nolan Ryan pitch a 240-pitch game once? He seemed OK afterwards.

I can understand the concern for pitch counts, but plenty of managers have rode their pitchers a whole lot harder than Dusty, and didn't have the consequences that we are experiencing with Prior and Wood.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:51 pm

[quote="sfz_T-car"] The Cubs have been reasonably careful with both pitchers since the initial arm problems.
quote]

Unfortunately, that's just not true. In 2004 Wood was in top 10 for Pitcher Abuse Points for the NL, and Zambrano was no. 1 overall. Prior dodged the bullet by being hurt for most of the year

Furthermore, Carlos Zambrano was no. 1 overall and no. 2 last year, which certainly doesn't indicate any enlightenment on the part of Dusty or the Cubs. Wood and Prior were in the Top 5 overall in '03, and Zambrano in the top 10, btw.

I don't see how even the most pitch count-averse fan can fail to see that treating pitchers, particuly gifted young pitchers, this way was detrimental to them as individuals and the team as a whole.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:02 pm

RobVarak wrote:As for the other great myth of "Ozzieball" the Sox scored almost the same % of their runs by HR in '04 as they did in '05. I don't have time now to grab the numbers, but I'll be happy to do so later.

As a Twins fan, it drove me crazy to see that myth passed around last year. Their BA w/RISP and overall OBP were actually about the same or worse than the horrible Twins offense.

sfz_T-car · Post by **sfz_T-car** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:28 pm

RobVarak wrote: I don't see how even the most pitch count-averse fan can fail to see that treating pitchers, particuly gifted young pitchers, this way was detrimental to them as individuals and the team as a whole.

Riggleman and Baylor pushed Wood at least as hard as Dusty did. I agree that was pre-injury but Wood was even younger at the time. As for Zambrano, he's the kind of high K, high BB pticher that perennially tops BPs list for pitcher abuse.

Usually the guys who chart high on the list are pretty good pitchers. Their presence on the list is as much a byproduct of their success as the sadistic tendencies of their skipper and pitching coach. And some guys just have the physiology and/or luck to avoid injury in spite of it all. I still find it strange that both Cubs aces were lauded for their mechanics, especially Prior.

I guess the team is just cursed. Put Prior up there along with Bartman, Durham, Kessinger and the Billy Goat. Angel Guzman is all set to be Dusty's next victim.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:19 am

Thought this was an interesting article that rates the arms of center and left fielders (and a link to their previous right fielder article):

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/artic ... eft-field/

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:50 am

How do you explain the Pirates' myriad of pitching injuries over the last 5 years...Kris Benson, Sean Burnett, Dave Williams, John Van Benschoten, Wells (elbow), Bobby Bradley, etc.? They've actually been accused of being *too* careful with their pitchers.

sfz_T-car · Post by **sfz_T-car** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:47 pm

Overwork, poor mechanics, immature arms are all factors but at some point, you just have to acknowledge that pitching a baseball is an unnatural act. He11, even Johnny Damon is having shoulder problems this spring; my daughter throws better than he does

Very few pitchers make it through their 20s without some serious arm injury. The lucky ones recover, the unlucky ones have their careers ended prematurely. It remains to be seen which category will fit Prior and Kip Wells

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:54 pm

Dave wrote:Thought this was an interesting article that rates the arms of center and left fielders (and a link to their previous right fielder article):

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/artic ... eft-field/

I forget who it was on this board that said Andruw didn't have a very good/accurate arm. That is just laughable. Hold rate is a pretty good indicator...and he was at the top. Runs saved...an even better indicator...it was on top by a significant margin.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:20 pm

Opening Day bump... GO RANGERS!!!!

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:41 pm

Ahhh...on my way to Dodger Stadium in about an hour...Dodgers/Braves, opening day. Can't be a better day on the Calendar in my book.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:41 pm

Last night was a good opener for the Sox. After a lengthy rain delay the Sox came out swinging and ended up beating the Tribe 10-4. Thome's shot was a monster. Thome, Konerko, and Dye can be big for them this year. Brandon McCarthy looked good in his long relief and Anderson looked good in Center.

Should be interesting to see how the Cubs start.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:48 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:Ahhh...on my way to Dodger Stadium in about an hour...Dodgers/Braves, opening day. Can't be a better day on the Calendar in my book.

Hey! I just realized your good fortune of having the Braves open in Cali... nice deal. Hopefully the weather is great there. It's perfect here, about 70 and sunny. I'm sitting here in my pressed Michael Young Jersey with brand new Rangers 59fifty on my noggin. About to head out in about half an hour to the hillbilly town of Arlington...

Sully · Post by **Sully** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:54 pm

I love this time of the year. The NHL season is winding down, gearing up for the playoffs, and every team in baseball has hope!

Phillies offense looks great on paper, but our pitching has a lot of question marks. Hopefully, we can start the season off on a good note against the reigning NL Cy Young winner.

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:55 pm

ScoopBrady wrote:Last night was a good opener for the Sox.

CC sure didn't miss many meals this winter.

Still looking forward to Friday though, the Tribe's home opener vs the Twins. There's about 90 people in the company I work for, and I'd guess at least a third of us are taking off Friday to go to the game, including me.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:32 pm

Kazuya wrote:
dbdynsty25 wrote:Ahhh...on my way to Dodger Stadium in about an hour...Dodgers/Braves, opening day. Can't be a better day on the Calendar in my book.
Hey! I just realized your good fortune of having the Braves open in Cali... nice deal. Hopefully the weather is great there.

Yeah can you believe it...now the only problem is I just went to Sportsmart to pick up some rain ponchos cuz it's gonna get nasty. It's supposed to rain this afternoon, all the way through Wednesday...so my good fortune is being severly threatened.

It's not like I haven't waited out a rain storm before for a Braves game though. Two years ago I was in Atlanta for a series (I go every year) and they had a 4 hour rain delay BEFORE the game even started. They started the game at 10:45pm instead of 7:00pm. That was nuts...the good news was the place was empty so we sat like 6 rows behind home plate. LOL...hopefully we'll get a little luckier this weekend.

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:36 pm

AJColossal wrote:But unless I'm crazy, didn't guys used to pitch 300 innings? Didn't Nolan Ryan pitch a 240-pitch game once? He seemed OK afterwards.

Yeah, and there were 4 man rotations, so they were pitching on 3 days rest vs 4. Oh, and relief pitchers lasted more than 1 inning too!!

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:51 pm

I didn't see the game last night but i heard ESPN did a good video before the broadcast about the Sox's season last year. anyone know a place online to watch it?

sfz_T-car · Post by **sfz_T-car** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:18 pm

Danimal wrote:I didn't see the game last night but i heard ESPN did a good video before the broadcast about the Sox's season last year. anyone know a place online to watch it?

Ask PK. He looooves ESPN

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:31 pm

Danimal wrote:I didn't see the game last night but i heard ESPN did a good video before the broadcast about the Sox's season last year. anyone know a place online to watch it?

I was very impressed with ESPN's video before the game. Although, after the trainwreck that was Comcast Sports Net's coverage of the Banner Ceremony, anything would have looked good in comparison. Let me know if you find that video Danimal, I'd like to see it again.

jLp vAkEr0 · Post by **jLp vAkEr0** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:30 pm

Mets win baby!

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:43 pm

C. Schilling looks to be in form based on his debut today, 7 innings pitched in leading to a BOSOX win.

JackDiggity · Post by **JackDiggity** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:54 pm

Reds pitching is awesome!! It's going to be a long year!

Dunn looked like he was trying to dodge grenades in LF. Put his arse back on 1st!!