TOCA 3: Final Build Info

AcemanPR · Post by **AcemanPR** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:11 am

Someone has a copy of the Final Build of TOCA3 and has posted some info, screens, and movies in this thread:

http://forums.xbox.com/1/2055719/ShowPost.aspx#2055719

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:31 am

Holy f*ck -- I would have sh*t my pants and cried if I had sold my Xbox and then seen these movies and screens.

The karts look really fun. They look like they could be this game's Global GT Lights -- point-and-shoot racing. Plus the 80s and 90s F1 cars -- hell yeah!

DROOL!

Take care,
PK

AcemanPR · Post by **AcemanPR** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:32 am

Yeah, this game looks absolutely incredible. Can't wait for its release!

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:43 am

pk500 wrote:Holy f*ck -- I would have sh*t my pants and cried if I had sold my Xbox and then seen these movies and screens.

Take care,
PK

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:08 pm

Yeah, I’m also looking forward to picking up TOCA3 ASAP.

It’s funny, I haven’t bought a videogame (for myself) since NHL2K6, five months ago. But the drought’s going to end with a bang... first TOCA3, then MLB06 a week later, then (possibly) MLB2K6 a week after that.

When it rains it pours!

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:28 pm

Man, the movie of the Williams at Spa is awesome. The damage model is sick. One hit, and the front of that guy's Williams was trashed.

Going flat through Eau Rouge at Spa will be my first challenge when I get this game. The guy in the video lifted twice. P*ssy!

Take care,
PK

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:34 pm

pk500 wrote:Going flat through Eau Rouge at Spa will be my first challenge when I get this game. The guy in the video lifted twice. P*ssy!

Take care,
PK

Somehow, I don't think doing it in a video game is quite the same challenge. You know, danger to life and limb, g-forces and all . . .

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:29 pm

Zeppo wrote:
pk500 wrote:Going flat through Eau Rouge at Spa will be my first challenge when I get this game. The guy in the video lifted twice. P*ssy!

Take care,
PK
Somehow, I don't think doing it in a video game is quite the same challenge. You know, danger to life and limb, g-forces and all . . .

All right, then: F*ck you. My second challenge in TOCA 3 will be to send Zep into the barriers at the top of Eau Rouge at 185 mph and see the particle effects of his car disintegrating.

Then we might hear Zep utter my famous TOCA phrase for the first time, "YOU F*CKED ME, MAN!"

Take care,
PK

AcemanPR · Post by **AcemanPR** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:00 am

A couple more vids...

Here is some lawnmower racing:

http://media.putfile.com/Toca-Mowers

and here is some Monster Truck fun:

http://media.putfile.com/Toca-Monsters

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 10:13 am

I asked the guy to post vids of sprint car and IndyCar action. Hopefully he comes through.

A demo of this game supposedly will be available in the Official Xbox Magazine this month. I might have to drop the $9 for the mag.

Take care,
PK

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:27 pm

I was a huge TOCA2 fan, but then Forza spoiled me.

TOCA3 looks to be really really deep. Lots of cars/series, tracks, etc... but I can't get past the arcade look from the 80's Williams car going around Spa. Obviously the AI was on rookie as he easily flew around them, but the issue is that real world physics seem to be completely absent. Perhaps there's a sim setting that would make the game more realistic, because the way he was driving @ Spa was laughable. Each time he lost the backend (where he normally should have gone into a death spin), it straightened right back out like he was playing an arcade racer. He went offroad at Eau Rouge that should have sent him flying and/or into a barrier. Here's to hoping he was playing on an easy/rookie setting with limited sim. physics and lots of AI helpers.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:49 pm

Jon:

While I agree that Forza had a superb driving model, the TOCA series always has put the racing model first, all the way back to the original TOCA on the PSX.

I trust that the driving model will be sufficiently challenging, if not quite as realistic as Forza, and mated with the ultimate racing model.

Forza is about <i>driving</i> a car. TOCA 3 is about <i>racing</i> a car. The choice is yours!

Take care,
PK

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:54 pm

I have high hopes for the next Forza (on the 360) but I'll give the TOCA3 demo a look. I'm guessing it was on some sort of arcade mode with lots of AI helpers enabled. I don't remember TOCA2 driving that way, and I played the hell outta that one.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:57 pm

(sheepishly)...anyone wanna sell me an Xbox, cheap?

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:15 pm

jondiehl wrote: but I'll give the TOCA3 demo a look.

Okay, I just played OXM's TOCA3 demo (I have a modded Xbox

). Unfortunately, it's doesn't really help much with an evaluation of the full game (from a simulation nut's standpoint). There's a section called "Simulation Modes" that is grayed out (as is "World Tour"). The "Pro Career" mode is only thing available, with about half of the classes of vehicles open to try out (the open wheel class, including F1 cars, is grayed out in the demo, grr

).

I just took a spin @ Indy in some Dodge stock cars. Did some dirt track stuff in rally cars, some GT racing in a Vette, and finally some touring car racing (Phillip Island w/ V8 supercars, and Hockenheim with some AMG Benz's). I can't see anywhere in the demo where to adjust the AI levels, and their ability/skill level. Most of the races are a flying start, and all of them start you in the middle/back of the pack. The AI cars are slow and stupid, so it's quite easy to get into first place midway through the first of three laps. At Hockenheim, I was able to pass and out-break at least 8 cars at the hairpin, which was stupid.

As for the driving physics, it's certainly arcadish, which I hope can be changed in the grayed out "Simulation Modes" section. I'm really hoping that the demo is simply dumbed down and the full retail version will have some sort of way to not only make the AI faster/smarter (I'm 99.9% sure of that) AND a way to make the cars handle more like their real life counterparts. Having done many organized online leagues with Forza, and numberous PC games before it (EA's F1 series, Grand Prix Legends, the Papyrus NASCAR Racing series, etc...), I guess I'm looking for more realistic handling, that's all.

In the options menu, there is some reference to some available sim. style changes (which I turned all of them on) called "Pro-Simulation". You can turn the following three items on or off: Gravel, Handling, Damage

Still, it was far to easy to navigate these uber-powered cars around the track. I loved TOCA2, played it often, but as soon as Forza was released I put it back on the shelf and haven't played it. I guess I got used to Forza's very realistic driving model, so going back to TOCA, even a new version, doesn't feel right.

Gman33 · Post by **Gman33** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:31 pm

Jon, Is the Toca 3 demo hidden? i just got the March OXM and it does not appear to be on the disc.

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:39 pm

Jon,

PK and I had this kind of discussion over TRD 2 - I'm one of those who never quite got my head around the stream of people describing the game as difficult, occasionally to the point of excess. One thing that he and I both agree on, though, is that if it's a racing game you're after as opposed to a driving game along the lines of Forza, the ToCA games are as good as it gets on console.

In terms of the driving model, it's been more accessible since ToCA World Touring Cars/Jarrett and Labonte was released, and much of what was tricky in the two previous games revolved around the famous unrecoverable half spin into oblivion (though the AC Cobra at Knockhill in the wet on ToCA 2 Touring Cars was a beast to keep hold of), so it's difficult to say anything has drastically changed. It lets you get on with the racing, of which there's plenty, without having to spend too long learning every nuance of every car, and in a game such as this one I'd argue that's ideal.

I notice you've had a couple of replies on the XBox.com forum, and all I can add to those is that you should never trust a ToCA demo. They always seem to be designed as a taster with the challenge removed, and I can't recall there being a tricky demo since the original on PSOne so they've never been great for evaluating the full release. It always struck me that Codies might be defeating the object a bit there.

Forza's driving model? Christ, I'd be here all night.

Cheers,
Adam

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:27 pm

This game and WE9 reaffirm My decision not to buy a 360 at launch.
Im looking forward to getting back on Live with DSPers and the Capn.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:27 pm

Gman33 wrote:Jon, Is the Toca 3 demo hidden? i just got the March OXM and it does not appear to be on the disc.

Um, err, I didn't get it from OXM (I'm assuming that's where it will be, eventually?)

Read between the lines... modded Xbox... I said I'd "give the demo a look" and reported back on it an hour later.

I don't want to break forum rules or anything, so if you want any additional info you'll have to use PM's.

Adam -

I'm not sure why Forza is referred to as a driving game/model, I'm confused... explain.

Sure, alot of of the available vehicles are production cars, not race cars. However, there are plenty of real race cars in the game (GT, GTS and P1 classes) as well as many exotic supercars in the S class that might as well be considered race cars.

The AMG GT cars in the TOCA3 demo are pretty much the same ones that you can "drive" in Forza. Nurburgring, Silverstone, Laguna, Road America, Road Atlanta... doesn't get any better for racing than some of those Forza real-world tracks (especially with all of the sims on, including fuel and tire wear). Some of my best experiences with Forza have been long (40-60min) races with multiple pits stops in my online league, with real race cars (not D/C/B/A class production cars).

All I've ever done with it is race, in my online league, usually with GT/GTR/P1 class cars. I did TOCA2 leagues as well, with the same people, and after Forza came out, we dropped it like a bad habit because the physics/driving model of Forza felt so much more superior. Anyway, just my 2 cents. I hope this TOCA3 demo I just played is like what their saying at the xbox.com forums.. it's not a final build, it's dumbed down, etc... maybe the final product will be more sim-like.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:26 am

Jon:

Forza online is a racing game. But offline, it's a driving game because the racing AI isn't nearly as good as that in TOCA 2. The offline AI will ram you for no reason and sometimes suffers from the snake-charmer like line that cars have taken in Gran Turismo since its inception.

The big problems with Forza online are the "money cars" in each class and the tuning. Guys with lesser skill but a great tuneup or a money car can beat superior drivers. I guess that's the same as in real-life F1, but the beauty of TOCA 2 is that everyone pretty much starts with equal equipment, so driving skill is the main factor in winning or losing.

Yeah, you can tinker with setups in TOCA 2, but the setup model isn't nearly as deep or effective as Forza, and there are no aftermarket parts that can bolt on horsepower to mask lack of driving skill.

I could see where Forza would be fun if you raced with guys you knew who were clean, hard racers and you avoided money cars and raced fairly equal equipment. But that was damn near impossible to come by in any random game of Forza online.

For example, did you ever run a D class race where nearly all of the guys weren't in CRX's?

Another good aspect of TOCA 2 is that it's more accessible to racing newbies. It's not Ridge Racer by any means, but it's not Forza, either. Forza could be pretty daunting to a person who never has tried a racing sim, especially with all assists turned off (and isn't that the only way to drive?

).

Newbies might be slow in TOCA 2, but they can keep the car on track for a lap and feel like they're making progress. That bred a really nice community of TOCA 2 racers here at DSP, as really fast, pretty fast and learning racers all competed together, and there were some great intramural scraps within each of the races so the guy who finished fourth and edged someone with whom he battled with all race long felt almost as good as the cat who won.

There's no question that if we ever had a DSP Online Game Hall of Fame, TOCA 2 would get in on the first ballot. We've had a hell of a good run with that game in here, and we're eager for you to join us with TOCA 3, man!

Take care,
PK

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:40 am

pk500 wrote: For example, did you ever run a D class race where nearly all of the guys weren't in CRX's?

Okay, now I see what you're saying, and I agree completely. Offline, yeah, Forza is a snore. My experience with it has been 90% online though, and 95% of that time was for an online league where the vehicles and upgrades were setup/restricted, etc... ie. we banned the CRX when doing D and C class, the 355 in the A class, the Saleen, the Tommy, you get the drift... Alot of times, for that week's race, you'd get a choice of 3 pre-determined cars, and sometimes we'd do a non-garage car race (meaning, you couldn't use any cars from your career, only the stock cars with no upgrades or tuning).

I guess I wasn't even thinking about the 2 games for offline purposes (I rarely play or buy games anymore for any reason other than to play them online, in a structured league).

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:51 am

Your Forza online setup sounds ideal. Sadly, we never got that kind of vibe going on here for very long. I think we returned to TOCA 2 instead.

But running in a Forza league like you describe, with various essential limitations, would have been really fun.

It's a shame that IndyCar Series 2005 was so damn buggy online, because we had some insanely close, hard-fought racing among DSPers on the rare nights the connection wasn't wonky. Two- and three-wide photo finishes seemed to happen a couple times per night.

Take care,
PK

GB_Simo · Post by **GB_Simo** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:37 am

jondiehl wrote:Okay, now I see what you're saying, and I agree completely. Offline, yeah, Forza is a snore. My experience with it has been 90% online though...

Ah-ha...I don't have broadband and so my experience of it is 100% offline. As PK says, play Forza offline and it isn't a racing game, it's a driving game with some somewhat unpredictable mobile chicanes. ToCA offline is a compelling racing experience with good, solid AI. Sorry I didn't make that clearer.

When I said driving model I suppose what I meant was physics model, so I'm sorry if that caused any confusion at all - I'm not concerned at all about the cars in the game, just by how they drive. Until recently Forza's always lacked a bit of feel to me, so I always felt the cars were floating above the road rather than stuck on it, but recently I've made a bit more sense of it. I do like the game, same as I do Gran Turismo, but it's not what I'd call a racing game in terms of the AI competition. It does, however, let me 'own' a 1970 Dodge Challenger with 600 bhp and an engine note that could rouse the dead, and for that I can even forgive them the mess they made of the Nordschleife.

Mind, in that ToCA Williams video, the Les Combes chicane doesn't look a lot better...

Cheers,
Adam

spooky157 · Post by **spooky157** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:59 am

I love TOCA as much as anyone but those days when Forza first came out and there were at least 6-10 DSP guys playing at any given time were some of the best online racing nights I've ever had. Not just the racing, which was incredibly fun, but seeing the artwork from some of these guys made me appreciate the creativity of some DSP folk.

I never understood why money cars were such a deterrent. Aren't there classes in TOCA where you were limited to just one vehicle choice? I made sure I had at least 2 cars in every class, the one I really enjoy driving and the money car. If the race I joined was a money car race I would have to bust out the CRX. There was enough customization in Forza to allow you to personalize that CRX in appearance and performance. Most of my time spent with Forza offline involved running test laps and tweaking the setups. I actually really enjoyed that aspect of Forza, like I was preparing for a big race weekend. I can see how that's not everybody's cup of tea though.

TOCA3 and WE9 are the only reasons I've held on to my Xbox so I'm definitely plan on putting in a lot of mileage with TOCA3. But after a couple of months of playing Forza back in the day it was tough switching over to TOCA2's simpler driving model.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:54 pm

OK Now you've got me all riled up. Here we go; the old Zeppo is back. . .

We had had so many great 1/2hr-race seasons in ToCA, what I called "Medium Length Race" Series, that Forza had a lot to live up to. I don't know how many different series we did in ToCA, but the whole thing lasted some 8 or 9 months all told before participation really started to wane. Usually we raced with a full field of 12 cars, and with a great mix of differently skilled drivers, it never got old.

I was one around here who really enjoyed Forza for what it was, and Spooky has expressed most of what I liked about it. I enjoyed the creative aspects of unique paint schemes, yet hated the money-car syndrome. What set Forza apart from ToCA was precisely the large number of cars in each class, and I always hoped that each racer would have a car that suited him the best, and then race with it. What invariably happened, though, was that since the money cars were so powerful, every race became an IROC race, which disappointed me.

Nonetheless, Forza had immense potential to allow us to enjoy it in longer races ToCA style, starting with the non-career mode races. However, two things made Forza nearly unplayable in longer races and for long series of longer races. One was the tiny number of cars on-track. Online, the limit was 8 I think, and when we did longer ToCA races, I wouldn't even let the race start if we didn't have at least 10 drivers, usually the full room of 12. 8 cars on track just isn't enough when your doing a 1/2hr. race. For offline, having 8 on track in Forza was a joke compared to the up-to 20 cars on track in ToCA. These create two entirely different types of racing experiences.

Secondly, the end of race protocol in Forza was a disaster, and again, inexcusable. We did do a handful of longer races, but we had to perform a difficult to explain ritual in order to end races, and this made any kind of race-time statistics impossible to keep. Basically, if we ran a 20-lap race, we would actually race for 19-laps. As soon as you crossed the line at the end of the 19th lap, you would pull over and wait for everyone else to finish up. Lapped cars would have to toodle around however many times to catch up, and then we would cruise in a sort of formation lap to end the thing. Ridiculous, and a major pain in the ass.

Another failure of Forza was the inexcusable paucity of real-world tracks. Compared to ToCA, Forza's track selection was laughable. The real-world tracks they had were great, but there just weren't enough of them. ToCA set the bar high in that regard, especially once we discovered the work-around that allows you to race any car on any track. I enjoyed the made-up tracks pretty well, but even with them, casual Forza sessions always seemed to get pretty dry pretty fast due to the limited choices of circuits.

We had such a great time with ToCA in our Medium Length Race Series, that Forza simply had no chance. For longer races, one big issue I had was the disagraceful limits on how many laps you could run. Only allowing 15 or 20 laps meant you had litle control over how long the race would be. With ToCA, we tailored our MLR Series to a tight 1hr, 1hr 10min session, complete with a 10-minute warm-up, a short 2-lap 'qualifying race' (due to the absence of qualifying, which ToCA3 promises to rectify), and, after a 5-minute break, a 30-minute race. Depending on the car and track combination, I could figure out exactly how many laps we should run for the race (21, 27, 42 in the case of GT Lights at Brands) and the 10-minute practice. Forza was very limiting in this area, making it very tough to make races that were long enough to feel like a race, but short enough to let a lot of folks join in.

Yes, we had to enforce one mandatory pit stop in ToCA, and in this area Forza was far superior. In the few longer races we did in Forza, fuel and tire comsumption was a wonderful added factor. Who can forget AtXj running out of fuel on the final lap at Laguna? And to this day, the 5-lapper we ran at the Nordschleife remains a highlight of online console racing for me. Spooky 157 knows what I am talking about!! That race was AWESOME. As we approached the start/finish straight at the end of lap 1, it was clear we would have to pit twice to finish the race. I jumped in at the end of lap 1, thinking to pit again after lap 3 and finish the race with 2-laps in a row. Some chose to pit after laps 2 and 4, which made the final lap, for me and two others at least, a real barn-burner. But Spooky somehow didn't get the memo, and I think he's still somewhere out in the hills trekking back to the paddock!! That was a great time, and I hoped to do it again but it never happened.

Nothing, however, and I mean nothing, will ever surpass the madness that was the 50-lapper at Bathurst in ToCA! CLASSIC!!

But the real reason Forza never quite caught on, to be honest, was Indy. Right after Forza came out, PK, who was at first very enthusiastic about the game, had to go to Indy for the month of May for the big event. That meant a month of no Xbox for him. When he got back, we were racing different classes of cars than he had in his garage, and he just wouldn't give in to maxing out a couple cars to join us. We didn't do enough with the non-career cars, as I stubbornly held to my dreams of every race with 8-different, unique cars, and with little enthusiasm shown for doing more long-form races, Forza just died on the vine. With the solid 'jump in and play' ToCA still sitting around, it was easy to abandon Forza.

The streamlined type of competition in ToCA ended up being much more suitable to our tastes. Not worrying about what was under the hood, but just being able to jump on and join in the racing is a big deal for a lot of guys. Some had the time to run laps and tweak setups, but a lot only had the time to get online for the big race. I hated the money-car syndrome, but that's because I wanted Forza to be something different from ToCA.

I am expecting at least a few MLR Series in ToCA3 to be popular here, especially if the game is back-compat soon after release. All we need is a host who can hold 12 with no lag. With the additions of practice and qualifying online, and the flags online (hope they function properly), all we have to do to have a perfect 1/2hr race is enforce a mandatory single pit-stop. Yes, I'd prefer to have tire and fuel consumption to naturally force a pit as the Forza system did so well, but the mandatory pit stop is a lot easier to undertand and pull off than the crazy hoops one had to go through to finish a race properly in Forza.

And finally, had IndyCar online not had all of it's insane buginess, I think we may still be playing that! Some of those races were just incresibly amazing, with tire wear, fuel consumption, setups, online practice, etc. Truly amazing, awesome, wheel to wheel racing. It just became impossible to run 1/2-length or full-length races because you never knew when half the field would zap into the parallel universe. A shame, really.