2005-2006 College Football Bowl Discussion

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:52 am

Bill_Abner wrote: Terribly coached game by PC tonight, though. Aggressive coaching is one thing, but that was just arrogant IMO. Take the FG in the 1st, and punt the damn ball and secure the W.

Actually, if I were PC, I would have done the same thing because Texas had not stopped LenDale White all night long, especially in obvious running situations. They had also just watched VY pick them apart the previous series and new that whether it was 56 yards or 99, VY was pretty much unstoppable.

One of the best football games I have ever had the pleasure to watch. I was rooting for Texas even though USC was my favorite college when growing up. I have rooted against Texas ever since I signed my Track and Field scholarship to Texas A&M. I am actually glad to see Mack Brown and Texas win. I am sure that Texas just got some more committments last night and maybe, just maybe they can make the heat on Dennis Franchione so hot, he will be forced to leave and A&M can get a real coach start competing again. Sorry for the slight veer OT....

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:35 am

AtXj wrote:Holy Sh*t!

Im still screaming.

Congrats, AtX. Last night was a memory that will live with you forever. I still smile earlobe to earlobe thinking of Syracuse's national hoops championship in 2003.

What a game. Just hand Vince Young the deed to the Rose Bowl. The guy has owned that joint the last two years.

I don't care for either team, but it's nice to see a new top dog. Plus Texas' victory once again exposes Skip Bayless as the absolute moron that he truly is.

Take care,
PK

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:35 am

Just an incredible game. Have to say, the BCS really delivered this year.

I agree with Bill, though, about the USC 4th and 1 -- punt the football. Yes, LenDale White was tearing it up against Texas. But at the point, your sole objective should be to put as much distance between Texas and your endzone. Even a touchback would have bought the USC D 20 extra yards.

As for pro prospects, Vince Young looks like the player people expected Michael Vick to be. He's not as fast, but he seems much more accurate than Vick and can throw from the pocket. Bush probably still goes #1 since the Texans won't draft a QB, but Young may have played his way into the #2 spot (assuming he comes out).

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:38 am

Vince Young is Michael Vick with a football brain and a passer's arm. What a prospect. I hate the word "intangibles," but let's face it: The guy is a winner. He has grabbed the Rose Bowl -- still the biggest stage in college football whether it's the BCS title game or not -- by the balls the last two years and dominated it.

And the guy is so damn big! 6-5, 235 with moves and pocket prescence. Buffalo, please trade up in the draft!

Take care,
PK

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:52 am

Brando70 wrote:Bush probably still goes #1 since the Texans won't draft a QB, but Young may have played his way into the #2 spot (assuming he comes out).

If you are the Texans, don't you have to think about taking the home-state hero, Vince Young? The jersey sales will pay for the pick!

DivotMaker · Post by **DivotMaker** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:54 am

Dave wrote:
If you are the Texans, don't you have to think about taking the home-state hero, Vince Young? The jersey sales will pay for the pick!

If he announces he will enter the draft, I hope he does before Bob McNair cuts an $8 million check to keep David Carr around. If VY does announce, the Texans would be FOOLS to pass on this guy....especially since he can impact a game on EVERY play, not 1/3 to half the plays like a Reggie Bush would...

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:23 am

What's telling is that Bush was on the sidelines a lot and USC seemed to give more carries to White. Bush has marquee value but does a running back selected the first pick in the draft have to get most of the touches, especially for those tough runs up the middle?

I don't question Carroll's decision to go for it on fourth down. They'd converted on most short yardage situations so it was a pretty good bet, with White running downhill most of the game.

But he seemed to think throwing a lot of blitz packages on that last drive, after not blitzing most of the game, would stop Young. Not an unreasonable bet but USC has blitzed a lot late in games when they needed to make the stop. Carroll in his NFL defense coordinator days put together a lot of blitz packages.

But the blitzes seemed to have surprised Young only once or twice, mostly at the start of the drive. Maybe with the constant blitzing, Young knew to expect it (or at least expected that late in the game, Carroll would blitz more).

The play or two before the TD, the LBs vacated the middle and blitzed up the gut and Young tried to hit a slant. On the TD play, the LBs again blitzed up the middle and Young seemed to recognize it right away and made his move.

Young seemed to key his decision on what the RDE did, as earlier in the game, he also scored another TD by running past the RDE.

Badger_Fan · Post by **Badger_Fan** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:53 am

The winning touchdown came as a result of three things:

1. Vince Young's speed allowed him to beat everyone to the corner.
2. Vince Young was able to get outside because the DE screwed up his containment by turning to follow a back going out for a pass.
3. The right tackle absolutely mauled a blitzer to the inside giving Young a nice lane to the outside.

Overall that was a hell of a game to watch. I would say that those two teams are pretty even. I think if they played 10 games they would probably split them. Congrats to both teams.

Post by **Jared** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:20 pm

Great game. Though I was really confused with Carroll's coaching. Did they EVER run a spy? It seemed like they would either rush 6 or 7, or drop back 8 in a zone. I was sure they'd have some sort of spy in there on the last play...but I think they rushed 5 or 6, blitz got picked up, and Young was off.

anchester · Post by **anchester** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:12 pm

I have said from day one that Vince is the best player Texas has ever had. Now I think he is the best college football player ever. Nobody raises his game, ala Jordan, under pressure like he does. Nobody takes over the offense single handedly taken over games like he does. Everyone knows he is going to take over, but they can't stop hiim. He has the moves of barry sanders, the power of a fullback, a quick as heck release, a nice touch on ball (unlike Carr), and can see pressure from all angles (unlike Carr).

A player like Vince is exactly what the Texans need (quick release and can escape bad line play). However the Texans management is like Mack Brown used to be. Play scared, always afraid of turnover, don't think running QBs can pass, won't run a spread offense, run on 1st and 2nd down. Mack said it best when he said the key to the horns becoming dominant was to stop coaching in traditional ways and telling vince what he couldn't do and just let Vince do his thing in a spread offense and not be afraid to pass.

A QB is so much more valueable to your team b/c he touches the ball everytime (versus bush who is unbelievably explosive but a specialist). The whole D has to key in on Vince that he doesn't even need to be that great of a passer. If they blitz, guys are wide open or he can run up the middle.

Texans should take vince (that is unless someone offers 10 players for the top pick which won't happen). Hell not only is the the best college player ever and one of those unique winners (montanaesque), but he would sell tickets like mad (exciting player and a longhorn). Texans should trade Carr immdediately and get O and D lineman and pick up free agents. Actually i have no faith in the Texans management so it almost don't want to see Vince go here b/c he would be set up to fail (although I still think he would improve our team more than any other one player).

A QB is by far the most important position but also the most difficult one to predict. Who knows who is gonna be able to read defenses (ryan leaf vs brady). That's why it actually safer to take vince b/c you can count on 2 things, ungodly athletic abililty (which negates the need to read D as much as a drop back guy), and a winner who raises his game under pressure.

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:52 pm

DivotMaker wrote:
Bill_Abner wrote: Terribly coached game by PC tonight, though. Aggressive coaching is one thing, but that was just arrogant IMO. Take the FG in the 1st, and punt the damn ball and secure the W.
Actually, if I were PC, I would have done the same thing because Texas had not stopped LenDale White all night long, especially in obvious running situations. They had also just watched VY pick them apart the previous series and new that whether it was 56 yards or 99, VY was pretty much unstoppable.

In my opinion it was a dumb coaching move, as dumb as UTs attempt in the first quarter. The ONLY time you should go for it in that situation is if you're behind. If you're ahead you punt the ball unless you're too deep to punt but too far to trust your placekicker. Even if it had been a touchback you still gain 25-30 yards. That's 25-30 more that UT would have had to go and it becomes more a time management concern for UT. Plus a punt would have taken time of the clock more than that play did. Another option would have been to put your fastest guy in the backfield, pitch to him, and have him run towards your own goal for a safety, burning many seconds off. But with just a 4 point lead at the time, that would have been as boneheaded as what USC did run.

I heard how the play was to "coach to win and not to lose." That's bullpuck. Coaching to win is playing the odds and being smart. The USC coaching staff made the wrong call.

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:59 pm

DivotMaker wrote:
Dave wrote:
If you are the Texans, don't you have to think about taking the home-state hero, Vince Young? The jersey sales will pay for the pick!
If he announces he will enter the draft, I hope he does before Bob McNair cuts an $8 million check to keep David Carr around. If VY does announce, the Texans would be FOOLS to pass on this guy....especially since he can impact a game on EVERY play, not 1/3 to half the plays like a Reggie Bush would...

VY is one heck of a talent, but if I were an NFL GM, I'm not sure I'd use a top 5 pick on him. Last night I came away thinking that Linert is a pure NFL style passer. He has excellent field vision and handles himself nicely in the pocket - a prototype NFL QB. VY demonstrated he was the most athletic talent on the field last night and made Reggie Bush look bush league. The trouble with Young is that while he is an incredible talent durability is an issue. Look at Vick and how he's been injured the last few seasons. Young's style is to flush the pocket. After awhile those 16 week NFL seasons will wear his body down if he continues that tendency. His passing game has improved but not to the point where you'd want him to focus only on that aspect of his game. If you are looking for an exciting QB that will give you a few years of high quality play, Young is the choice. If you want a franchise QB in the mold of Elway, Aikman, Marino, Young, Montana, Favre, etc (i.e., QBs who last a decade or more in the league), look elsewhere.

During the game I was actually thinking how the Texans #1 pick lost value. Bush had a great game if you look at the stats, but the receiving yards I credit more to Linert than Bush.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:03 pm

James:

Good points, but Young is a hell of a lot bigger than Vick, so I think his body can absorb more punishment.

Colleges play 12 games, so it's only four games less than the NFL. I don't follow Texas that closely, but how often has Young been injured during his career there as a starter?

Take care,
PK

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:03 pm

While Vince Young is probably going to be a very good NFL QB, I think it's a mistake for the Texans to take him. As good as he is, it will take Young 2-3 years to make a real impact as a QB. He's not going to look very exciting getting sacked 50-60 times a season. Carr, while not playing like an overall #1, looks like he could be a good starter if he could get some protection for 3 seconds. I don't think they can get the kind of trade value for Carr that would make it worth trading him. In other words, drafting Vince Young is like starting the franchise completely over.

Bush, on the other hand, gives the Texans someone who can step on the field right away and contribute. He can return kicks, work as a running back, and split out as a receiver. His value is measured by people acting like he had a shitty game last night when he only racked up 175 yards rushing and receiving. He's definitely got the speed and elusiveness to make an immediate impact at the pro level, and he could cause a lot of matchup problems if used properly.

Personally, if I were running Houston, I draft Bush, pull out the stops with free agency to get some decent o-linemen and focus 80% on building an offense. They may still lose a lot of games, but at least they would be fun to watch, and that puts asses in the seats. Then the next year they can turn to the defense.

So it's not really saying Young isn't a worthy #1, he is, I just don't think he's the best pick for Houston. Just my 2 cents.

F308GTB · Post by **F308GTB** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:27 pm

Brando70 wrote:Personally, if I were running Houston, I draft Bush, pull out the stops with free agency to get some decent o-linemen and focus 80% on building an offense. They may still lose a lot of games, but at least they would be fun to watch, and that puts asses in the seats. Then the next year they can turn to the defense.

So it's not really saying Young isn't a worthy #1, he is, I just don't think he's the best pick for Houston. Just my 2 cents.

Or trade for picks. The Texans do need a strong OL. Even with a stud back you need decent run blocking. Functional running backs are numerous. Dominick Davis would be more than enough behind a good line. If I were in the hunt for a RB, I'd consider trading the #1 pick for a later first round pick with the hopes of getting someone like LenDale White who is impressive and would be a mid to late first round pick.

On the Texans QB situation, I agree he'd be a good QB if he was just given time. He play like a deer frozen by headlights. He can't trust his linemen to give him more than a second of protection. He has the tools; he just needs a supporting cast.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:29 pm

anchester wrote:I have said from day one that Vince is the best player Texas has ever had. Now I think he is the best college football player ever.

Ever? Wow -- that's a stretch.

Did you ever see Earl Campbell play? Campbell still is the greatest Texas player I've ever seen. That guy was unstoppable in college and for most of his pro career. He didn't take over games -- he dominated them from Texas' opening snap.

And if you're talking double threats, what about Charles Woodson or Deion Sanders? Easily the best cover guys in college football in their day, and they were great threats on offense, too. They also could dominate games.

Another to ponder: Barry Sanders. The guy rushed for 2,628 yards in the regular season the year he won the Heisman. Add the bowl, and he ran for 2,850 yards in one year. That would have ranked him seventh among NCAA Division I <i>teams</i> in rushing that season.

Still, the greatest college football player that I've ever seen in my 40 years was Herschel Walker. The guy should have won the Heisman as a freshman, sophomore and junior. He was the best player in college football all three of his seasons at UGa. He had a combination of power and speed that I've never seen since in college.

And as far as carrying a team, don't forget that Walker gained 150 yards in the Sugar Bowl as a freshman leading Georgia over Notre Dame for the national championship -- <i>all while playing with a badly separated shoulder.</i>

Vince Young is a great player. But the best ever? I'll agree to disagree.

Take care,
PK

anchester · Post by **anchester** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:01 pm

I have not missed one minute of vince young football in 3 years. He has never been hurt. Not only is he big, but never seems to take a direct hit (emmitt smith like) and has a rubber band flexible body. Sure Earl was a beast (although ricky williams #'s kill his but its a different era) and Earl is my #2 TX player of all time, but Vince is the QB who touches it every time and literally takes over ever play against good teams and raises his game to unearthly like levels.

Sure Sanders had monster stats and was the whole team. He is probably the only guy more elusive than Young. However, you need 1 yard w/ sanders and your are likely to get -5 or 25. Pencil it in w/ young.

This game was nothing new for young and was exactly like last year's rose bowl and this years Ohio state game. Last year Texas was down against lowly KU and it was 4th and 19 w/ less than one minute left, the guy jukes 3 people and picks up 23 yards on a scramble and wins the game.

nyisles16 · Post by **nyisles16** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:14 pm

man.. what happened to the refs in the bowls.. did they forget how to actually officiate?? i wonder why there was no review of the Young "knee down" lateral (not saying it was a turning point mind you).. also, the pick by Texas where they ruled it an incomplete pass (guy fell on his back with full posession of the ball).. but still a great game- back & forth the whole game.. now as far as greatest "Texas" player, i cannot say Young right now is.. mind you i was a wee little lad when Earl played, so i cant comment on him.. but i think Barry was better - just made you look silly & made plays out of thin air when nothing was there.. Walker i would say was a great college player - as far as the pros, he was respectable..

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:20 pm

Hugh Green is still the best college player I've ever seen. I'm biased against Walker because of the way Penn State shut him down in the 1983 Sugar Bowl, but he (Walker) is up there too.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:23 pm

And Walker?

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:25 pm

Leebo33 wrote:Hugh Green is still the best college player I've ever seen. I'm biased against Walker because of the way Penn State shut him down in the 1983 Sugar Bowl, but he's up there too.

Wow -- Green was a monster. Should have been the first defensive player to win the Heisman, although you could have made a case for Lee Roy Selmon at Oklahoma, too.

Take care,
PK

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:26 pm

Interesting ranking of the top 100 college players of all time, from collegefootballnews.com:

http://www.collegefootballnews.com/Top_ ... layers.htm

Let the debate begin.

Take care,
PK

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:36 pm

My vote goes for Archie Griffin.

Heck, anyone can win ONE Heisman.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:42 pm

lexbur wrote:My vote goes for Archie Griffin.

Heck, anyone can win ONE Heisman.

True, but Walker should have won three!

Take care,
PK

Atxj · Post by **Atxj** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:00 pm

pk500 wrote:
AtXj wrote:Holy Sh*t!

Im still screaming.
Congrats, AtX. Last night was a memory that will live with you forever. I still smile earlobe to earlobe thinking of Syracuse's national hoops championship in 2003.

What a game. Just hand Vince Young the deed to the Rose Bowl. The guy has owned that joint the last two years.

I don't care for either team, but it's nice to see a new top dog. Plus Texas' victory once again exposes Skip Bayless as the absolute moron that he truly is.

Take care,
PK

Thanks PK, it surely will.

Here's to seeing Vince in burnt orange come August!