Week 15 NFL thread

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:44 pm

All the Bears need is an average passing game. With Grossman there and with Bernard Berrian in the mix, that allows them to stretch the field a possibly punish defenses that stack the box against the run. The Bears have managed to have a potent rushing attack despite teams stacking, so even a small amount of softening could really help their offense.

The AFC teams would probably still light them up -- I think every playoff team outside of Jacksonville is a better squad than the Bears. But they are definitely the second or third best in the NFC and home field advantage is monumental for them because it makes passing less of a factor.

Despite yesterday's loss, I agree with BK that the Colts are still head and shoulders above the rest of the league. They didn't roll over despite being down by 16. I actually think the loss takes a lot of pressure off them, as they can forget the undefeated season hype and just focus on the Super Bowl.

I really hope the Chargers make the playoffs. They are a fun team to watch.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:46 pm

wco81 wrote:Indy is still vulnerable to the run. They have fast, playmaking LBs and very quick DEs but you wonder if a team couldn't pound it on them, eat up time of possession and keep the ball away from Peyton and co.

Plus yesterday, their safeties apparently didn't play well, allowing Charger WRs to get deep. They may have kept Gates' production down but the WRs made some big plays.

I don't want to buy into the Patriots hype which seems to be starting now but their defense seems to be on a roll. They still have key guys out like Harrison but it sounds like they're not getting gashed like they were earlier in the season. Of course, they've been playing teams like the Jets and Bills during this current win streak. Still, Colts may prefer not to face the Patriots at all.

I don't buy in to a team can pound them on the ground. That's exactly what Pittsburgh and Jacksonville tried to do and neither were succesful.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:50 pm

pk500 wrote:Still, you wouldn't believe how many teens and early 20s call Ron Mexico one of the best QBs in the game. I have two nephews in their late teens and 20s who insist Vick still is one of the top three QBs in the game, and many of their friends think the same.

The power of hype and marketing, baby!

Take care,
PK

I'm not in my teens or 20s, and I think Vick is one of the best QBs in the game. Maybe not top-3, but damn good. You've got to give the guy a bit of a break, in that he has some severely bruised ribs and can't even breathe without pain, yet still goes out there, tires to throw, runs around and gets hammered by guys 100lbs bigger than he is. Of course, I've been a fan since he was a frosh at VA Tech, so I admit I'm biased. Just don't forget that in the history of the NFL, there has been exactly one QB to lead his team to a playoff victory on the road in Green Bay.

The one thing I would say to Mora is. . . WEAR A HAT, YOU IDIOT, IT'S 5º OUT THERE! I was LOVING Lovie all bundled up. Now there is an intelligent individual keeping his head (and thus his body) warm. No need to subscribe to the Shanahan school of "I'm too tough to wear a hat" or the Jimmy Johnson school of "I can't wear a hat, it'll mess up my hair!" Nope, Lovie's man enough to wear TWO layers of head covering and stay toasty warm and comfy out there.

Switching Grossman in at the half certainly gave a spark to the Bears Offense, but you have to wonder what that move will do to Orton in terms of his confidence. Maybe, if he's as well adjusted as the Dalai Lama, he may take it in stride, but for most mere mortals, particularly rookies, that kind of thing is going to have some big consequences down the line. I think Grossman is the better QB, if only because of experience, and he showed it last night. But as has been said, it wasn't like he lit the place on fire (the Falcons have a pretty good D, it must be noted). I'll be very interested to see how that plays out over the rest of the season/postseason, but I really think the blow to Orton's confidence could be pretty devastating.

As a Redskin fan, I've got to say thanks to the Bears for beating the Falcons. It's been a while since we've had meaningful games in December (since Norv's next to last season here, really), and it is awesome. FedEx Field is beginning to feel more like RFK, though it will never really get that crazy. I mean, there are no movable seats that bounce up and down! I was sure there would be tons of Cowboys fans yesterday, but there weren't really that many. Next week is going to be AWESOME! Good old, intense NFC East football, baby! Lots of motivational material, the division on the line, man this is going to be one heck of a ball game!

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:51 pm

Brando70 wrote:ESPN had Alex Brown wired for sound, and at one point he was telling Vick something like "if you move around like that, you're going to make me hurt you."

Actually he said "Vic, quit moving like that or you're going to make me hurt something"

Which takes on a whole different meaning.

But I got your point.

To me, when Alex Brown hit Vic and then flip over nd kicked him in the hed, he quit right there.

Rex didn't blow me away, but he has a lot of rust to shake off. Give him a full week of practice and we'll see how he does in GB.

Personally after the first quarter when the Bears had 2 yards of total offense I was screaming at the TV, if they didn't make that switch at halftime I think I might of hurt myself.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:05 pm

Not saying the Colts will get beaten. Just that it wouldn't surprise me if they were. One of the teams which might be able to do it is Denver but then again, the Colts have handled the Broncos the last two years in the playoffs.

If they had run the table, they'd be compared to the all-time great teams because of that accomplishment (which is harder now than when the Dolphins did it because of the longer seasons).

But just as the Dolphins are not considered among the top 3 all-time teams despite their achievement, I don't think the Colts would have been either.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:18 pm

wco81 wrote: If they had run the table, they'd be compared to the all-time great teams because of that accomplishment (which is harder now than when the Dolphins did it because of the longer seasons).

It may be harder because of a longer season, but also I think it is a little easier because of expansion (more weaker teams, fewer if any 'complete' football teams), and then add in better facilities all around, domed stadiums with climate control, etc. And don't forget the bye during the season, and the bye week in the playoffs that gives the bye team a big advantage sicnce their oponent just played a tough game the week before.

I'm not saying it's definitely harder or definitely easier, but I think there are elements on both sides of that equation.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:51 pm

wco81 wrote: But just as the Dolphins are not considered among the top 3 all-time teams despite their achievement, I don't think the Colts would have been either.

Who would you put ahead of them? I am a huge Bears homer, and even I know that the Shufflin' Crew is behind the 17-0 Dolphins. Going undefeated in the Super Bowl era is a monumental achievement. There have been some incredible one- and even two-loss teams that could give the Dolphins a run in terms of talent, but you can't argue with that record. Stuff like strength of schedule and playoff margins of victory are specious arguments.

In terms of the Colts Super Bowl chances, I don't think Denver matches up well against them, and you can't discount the Plummer factor, especially with a Colts D that forces QBs to make a lot of mistakes. The Bengals and Chargers both probably match up the best in terms of applying good defensive pressue and having offenses that can score a lot of points. I don't see Pittsburgh marching into Indy and beating the Colts, and the Patriots don't have the running game or defense to beat them.

The one team in the NFC I could see causing problems for them are the Giants. They have a really balanced offense that could probably put up enough points to stay competitive for a while. It would depend on which version of Eli Manning shows up. The Colts would probably wear the Bears down after a close first half, force Hasselback to make mistakes that would ultimately kill Seattle, and blow out either the Panthers or Bucs.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:55 pm

Zeppo wrote:Just don't forget that in the history of the NFL, there has been exactly one QB to lead his team to a playoff victory on the road in Green Bay.

Didn't Culpepper do it last year?

jLp vAkEr0 · Post by **jLp vAkEr0** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:54 pm

Leebo33 wrote:
Zeppo wrote:Just don't forget that in the history of the NFL, there has been exactly one QB to lead his team to a playoff victory on the road in Green Bay.
Didn't Culpepper do it last year?

Yep, that's the game where Moss mooned the crowd.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:05 pm

Zeppo wrote:
pk500 wrote:Still, you wouldn't believe how many teens and early 20s call Ron Mexico one of the best QBs in the game. I have two nephews in their late teens and 20s who insist Vick still is one of the top three QBs in the game, and many of their friends think the same.

The power of hype and marketing, baby!

Take care,
PK
I'm not in my teens or 20s, and I think Vick is one of the best QBs in the game. Maybe not top-3, but damn good. You've got to give the guy a bit of a break, in that he has some severely bruised ribs and can't even breathe without pain, yet still goes out there, tires to throw, runs around and gets hammered by guys 100lbs bigger than he is. Of course, I've been a fan since he was a frosh at VA Tech, so I admit I'm biased. Just don't forget that in the history of the NFL, there has been exactly one QB to lead his team to a playoff victory on the road in Green Bay.

The one thing I would say to Mora is. . . WEAR A HAT, YOU IDIOT, IT'S 5º OUT THERE! I was LOVING Lovie all bundled up. Now there is an intelligent individual keeping his head (and thus his body) warm. No need to subscribe to the Shanahan school of "I'm too tough to wear a hat" or the Jimmy Johnson school of "I can't wear a hat, it'll mess up my hair!" Nope, Lovie's man enough to wear TWO layers of head covering and stay toasty warm and comfy out there.

Switching Grossman in at the half certainly gave a spark to the Bears Offense, but you have to wonder what that move will do to Orton in terms of his confidence. Maybe, if he's as well adjusted as the Dalai Lama, he may take it in stride, but for most mere mortals, particularly rookies, that kind of thing is going to have some big consequences down the line. I think Grossman is the better QB, if only because of experience, and he showed it last night. But as has been said, it wasn't like he lit the place on fire (the Falcons have a pretty good D, it must be noted). I'll be very interested to see how that plays out over the rest of the season/postseason, but I really think the blow to Orton's confidence could be pretty devastating.

As a Redskin fan, I've got to say thanks to the Bears for beating the Falcons. It's been a while since we've had meaningful games in December (since Norv's next to last season here, really), and it is awesome. FedEx Field is beginning to feel more like RFK, though it will never really get that crazy. I mean, there are no movable seats that bounce up and down! I was sure there would be tons of Cowboys fans yesterday, but there weren't really that many. Next week is going to be AWESOME! Good old, intense NFC East football, baby! Lots of motivational material, the division on the line, man this is going to be one heck of a ball game!

I think it's better for Orton's confidence to get him off the field and onto the scout team, into the film room and get a headset on him at this point. Regularly racking up more sacks than completions was far worse for his confidence! The hell with his ego anyway. Even if it is devastating to his ego, I'm happy to draft another equally mediocre QB in the 4th or 5th round next year if we need to replace his "production."

Grossman may not have lit the place on fire, but it was pretty damn close. The quality of play was staggeringly improved with him in the game, and he spent the entire fourth quarter killing clock anyway.

As for Vick, I think I had some choice words about him during our Madden game last week

He's a dazzling and exciting talent, but he's a lousy QB by virtually any reliable measure. The best statistical tools (IMO those used by The Football Outsider fellas) have him as the 24th or 25th passing QB, surrounded by luminaries such as Mike McMahon, Jeff Garcia and Gus Frerotte. The same metrics had him ranked as the 36th most effective passer last year. His career passer rating is just 75.5, and he's always in the bottom third of YPA. Even taking his monumental rushing skills into account only vaults him up to barely above replacement level.

None of these geek tools measures intangibles such as leadership and athleticism of course. But even taking those into account he still falls WAY short of being "one of the best" QBs in the NFL by a pretty large margin IMO.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:21 pm

Vick has marquee value and that is why the Falcons handed him the big contract.

But he shows very little of the timing with his WRs. Most of the big plays he makes are when the timing of the plays break down and he has to improvise. You rarely see a timing pattern executed as he plants on the 3 or 5-step drop (of course they only want to show highlights of the crazy plays he makes).

That's fine at the beginning but he has to make the jump to the next level so that he can be more productive and make his WRs more productive. With that running game, they should be doing a lot more with the play-action passes.

On his interception, he made the same kind of attempt that Alex Smith did yesterday, roll out to the left when the play breaks down and try to fling is as far as you can, only to see the pass underthrown and intercepted. Basically wasting the possession right there in hopes of a big play. The difference is that Smith is a rookie (who doesn't seem to have a clue out there). Vick has been around how long?

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:26 pm

wco81 wrote:That's fine at the beginning but he has to make the jump to the next level so that he can be more productive and make his WRs more productive. With that running game, they should be doing a lot more with the play-action passes.

Yeah, but then Vick will have to become a black drop-back passer with cornrows and risk the wrath of the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP.

Take care,
PK

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:55 pm

I like the Bears alot better now that they have an NFL qb.
Was so nice to see him throwing the ball.

I still think it will be the Seahawks but the entire way I look at the Bears has changed. They can now score on offense. They are now alot like the 2000 Ravens.

As for Vick he reminds Me of the younger Elway. Im going to give him a few years before I decide .

HouOilers · Post by **HouOilers** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:45 pm

This was a real funny picture with all thats going on with the Lions. Catch the sign in the back:

Cubs fans never get a break

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:51 pm

HouOilers wrote:
Cubs fans never get a break

Nor should they.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:52 pm

jLp vAkEr0 wrote:
Leebo33 wrote:
Zeppo wrote:Just don't forget that in the history of the NFL, there has been exactly one QB to lead his team to a playoff victory on the road in Green Bay.
Didn't Culpepper do it last year?
Yep, that's the game where Moss mooned the crowd.

Yep and Jack Buck made a 34 sized ass out of himself...

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:53 pm

Or Joe Buck...whatever...

As for the Dolphins 17-0 puts ya in My top 3.
Its never been doen before or after.
How bout some credit?

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:04 pm

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2266174

Tice has no clue...LOL.

I thought the crowd in Minnesota was quiet. I guess 15-20k Steelers fans will do that. A lot of teams that the Steelers played on the road this year required people to purchase 2 games if they wanted individual game tickets to the Steelers game. Of course, it sounds like many of the fans attending this game just bought them off of season ticket holders.

If the Steelers end up in Cincy for the first round of the playoffs it will be interesting to see if they can regain roadfield advantage there. I'll give the Bengals fans credit though for not selling as many tickets to Steelers fans earlier in the season.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:10 pm

How stupid. F*ck him and the team--people get extorted to pay full price for pre-season games so I don't blame anyone for making a few extra bucks when they can.

I always enjoy when people making a hell of a lot more money than the paying customer decide what people should and shouldn't do with their tickets/money.

jLp vAkEr0 · Post by **jLp vAkEr0** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:12 pm

Leebo33 wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2266174

Tice has no clue...LOL.

I thought the crowd in Minnesota was quiet. I guess 15-20k Steelers fans will do that. A lot of teams that the Steelers played on the road this year required people to purchase 2 games if they wanted individual game tickets to the Steelers game. Of course, it sounds like many of the fans attending this game just bought them off of season ticket holders.

If the Steelers end up in Cincy for the first round of the playoffs it will be interesting to see if they can regain roadfield advantage there. I'll give the Bengals fans credit though for not selling as many tickets to Steelers fans earlier in the season.

This from a man who scalped Super Bowl tickets.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:19 pm

Dave wrote:people get extorted to pay full price for pre-season games so I don't blame anyone for making a few extra bucks when they can.

Yeah, that sucks. I used to buy 4-6 games a year off of someone in Pittsburgh and they always made me buy the preseason as well. Of course, I would then turn around and sell one or two of my games "bundled" with a preseason ticket. I'm no better than Gamestop...LOL.

Zeppo · Post by **Zeppo** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:44 pm

jLp vAkEr0 wrote:
Leebo33 wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2266174

Tice has no clue...LOL.

I thought the crowd in Minnesota was quiet. I guess 15-20k Steelers fans will do that. A lot of teams that the Steelers played on the road this year required people to purchase 2 games if they wanted individual game tickets to the Steelers game. Of course, it sounds like many of the fans attending this game just bought them off of season ticket holders.

If the Steelers end up in Cincy for the first round of the playoffs it will be interesting to see if they can regain roadfield advantage there. I'll give the Bengals fans credit though for not selling as many tickets to Steelers fans earlier in the season.
This from a man who scalped Super Bowl tickets.

Exactly. What a hypocrite!

lexbur · Post by **lexbur** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:49 pm

I never understood why season ticket holders complain about paying full price for preseason games. When you buy a season ticket, you are basically paying a lump sum of money for 10 games. What difference does it make how the cost is divided up?

If the team lowers the price of the two preseason games, they would just raise the price of the 8 regular season games to cover the cost. Would that make them happy? You're still gonna pay the same lump sum.

And since alot of season ticket holders dump their preseason tickets anyway, it works to their advantage that they're full price. This way they can legitimately ask for 1/10th of their lump sum. If the preseaon games were half price, they'd only be getting 1/20th of their lump sum from the sucker who bought tickets to a meaningless game.

And one other thing, if you don't like it, don't buy season tickets. There's a pretty long waiting list here, and we suck. I can imagine the waiting lists are alot longer in other NFL towns.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:36 pm

lexbur wrote:And since alot of season ticket holders dump their preseason tickets anyway, it works to their advantage that they're full price. This way they can legitimately ask for 1/10th of their lump sum. If the preseaon games were half price, they'd only be getting 1/20th of their lump sum from the sucker who bought tickets to a meaningless game.

And one other thing, if you don't like it, don't buy season tickets. There's a pretty long waiting list here, and we suck. I can imagine the waiting lists are alot longer in other NFL towns.

Seriously....you've paid or had someone pay full price for pre-season? Most people here get a round of beers picked up at the bar if you take them off their hands.

I don't buy season tickets, but full price for pre-season games is one of the biggest jokes in sports. They should be half price and if it means more expensive regular season tickets then so be it. Then if you sell your regular season games you'll get more of your money back.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:04 pm

Seahawks win 10 in row. They are ready to surprise in the playoffs this year.