High Definition Question

bjackets · Post by **bjackets** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:12 pm

I used to have DirecTV but can't get it now that I've moved into a very heavily treed community.

I now have TimeWarner and it's OK (picture isn't as good but OH well). I have a nice high definition set up with HDMI cables.

How do I get the best picture? Should I stay with a high def box like I have now or would a cable card be the best way to go. My TV is cable card ready and I wouldn't need any accesories.

Or does it make any REAL difference in actual picture quality either way.

Thank you for your feedback.

ohiost

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:27 pm

I currently use a CableCard but have never had a box hooked up to my main HDTV so I don't know if there is a quality difference either. I'd be interested in feedback as well...

I do know that I am not that happy with the HiDef quality for most of the HD channels on my main 55" HD set (I have a 26" in the bedroom that looks great through the cable box) and while I just attribute it to being used to HD on my 26" and then blowing it up to 55", I wonder if it is aslo the CableCard making most of the channels look a bit off. The 360 games look much, much closer in comparison between my 26" and 55".

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:45 pm

I'd say the poor quality has more to do with how much your cable company is compressing the signal, than the way you have it fed to your HDTV. DirecTV is just as bad though, especially on Sunday's with all of the NFL HD games on at the same time. Hopefully their new mpeg4 compression will help, but I still see alot of artifacts. Even OTA networks are having the quality slack off in some areas, with multicasting on multiple digital subchannels that robs the main HD channel of bandwidth.

As to your question though, a CableCard should look better (than a cable set top box) with SD content and equal to DVI/HDMI with HD content since there is no upconversion or digital to analog being performed in a set top box.

Cable boxes tend to be built on the cheap since the cable company charges a few dollars for a rental, they have an incentive to pay as little as possible for the box. My experience is that the pictures from SD source programs look poor when fed from the HD cable box to digital displays.

Letting the TV do all the converting work gets the source program into the TV without degradation. Today's sets have better deinterlacer/scalers than the found in current cable set tops. The result, better pictures.

Spooky · Post by **Spooky** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:55 pm

jondiehl wrote:I'd say the poor quality has more to do with how much your cable company is compressing the signal, than the way you have it fed to your HDTV. DirecTV is just as bad though, especially on Sunday's with all of the NFL HD games on at the same time. Hopefully their new mpeg4 compression will help, but I still see alot of artifacts. Even OTA networks are having the quality slack off in some areas, with multicasting on multiple digital subchannels that robs the main HD channel of bandwidth.

As to your question though, a CableCard should look better (than a cable set top box) with SD content and equal to DVI/HDMI with HD content since there is no upconversion or digital to analog being performed in a set top box.

Cable boxes tend to be built on the cheap since the cable company charges a few dollars for a rental, they have an incentive to pay as little as possible for the box. My experience is that the pictures from SD source programs look poor when fed from the HD cable box to digital displays.

Letting the TV do all the converting work gets the source program into the TV without degradation. Today's sets have better deinterlacer/scalers than the found in current cable set tops. The result, better pictures.

Thanks for the info. It makes sense.

It is interesting though since HD on my TV upstairs (cable box) looks so much better than on my larger TV downstairs (the one with the cablecard). I know that the smaller size of the one upstairs will make things look a bit sharper and crisper, but I don't think there should be as much difference as there is between the two. Again, all other things (games, DVD's, ect..) don't seem to have as much of a difference as HD TV content does.

Hmmmm...

Sport73 · Post by **Sport73** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:36 pm

If your cable box outputs digital (HDMI/DVI) than the HD quality should be indistinguishable (for the most part) from the Cable Card, and if it uses Component, it should still be more than acceptable.

I wouldn't recommend going the cable card route, mainly because the current generation of cable cards LOSE a lot more than they gain:

No Pay Per View
Incomplete Channel Guide (if any)
No interactive services (on demand etc.)

You get the 'full' experience with the Cable Box, plus you should be able to get the HD PVR for only $5!

To optimize picture quality, tune/calibrate your set using Avia or Digital Video Essentials and use those settings as a baseline for optimizing your Cable picture.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:10 pm

Yep, that is true. You only get 1 way communication with the Cable Card's, so you do lose that.

There are only a few reasons to go with the Cable card:

-no wires going to the TV (might be important for LCD/Plasma wall mounts)
-nowhere to put a cable box (again, primarily important for those flush mounts in non-entertainment cabinent settings)
-using the TV's remote, and not having a seperate STB remote
-keeps your HDMI or DVI input free for another source (like a upscaling DVD player)
-cable company's box doesn't support DVI or HDMI out, only component, so you want the Cable Card for the absolute best picture quality and/or you don't have the extra component video inputs to spare.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:05 pm

jondiehl wrote:I'd say the poor quality has more to do with how much your cable company is compressing the signal, than the way you have it fed to your HDTV. DirecTV is just as bad though, especially on Sunday's with all of the NFL HD games on at the same time. Hopefully their new mpeg4 compression will help, but I still see alot of artifacts. Even OTA networks are having the quality slack off in some areas, with multicasting on multiple digital subchannels that robs the main HD channel of bandwidth.

As to your question though, a CableCard should look better (than a cable set top box) with SD content and equal to DVI/HDMI with HD content since there is no upconversion or digital to analog being performed in a set top box.

Cable boxes tend to be built on the cheap since the cable company charges a few dollars for a rental, they have an incentive to pay as little as possible for the box. My experience is that the pictures from SD source programs look poor when fed from the HD cable box to digital displays.

Letting the TV do all the converting work gets the source program into the TV without degradation. Today's sets have better deinterlacer/scalers than the found in current cable set tops. The result, better pictures.

You're getting a lot of Artifacts in the HD games on Sunday Ticket?

Strange, because my picture has been great for the most part on those channels on both my HDTV's. Although picture quality is definitely better on the CBS games as opposed to the Fox games.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:21 pm

bkrich83 wrote: You're getting a lot of Artifacts in the HD games on Sunday Ticket?

Strange, because my picture has been great for the most part on those channels on both my HDTV's. Although picture quality is definitely better on the CBS games as opposed to the Fox games.

Usually when there's alot of motion on the screen, I can see it. It's their other HD channels that seem to suffer on Sunday afternoons when they max out the bandwidth for football. Most home theater forums jokingly refer to DirecTV's high def offerings as "HD lite" because of the bandwidth issues they're having with mpeg2 compression.

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:23 pm

jondiehl wrote:
bkrich83 wrote: You're getting a lot of Artifacts in the HD games on Sunday Ticket?

Strange, because my picture has been great for the most part on those channels on both my HDTV's. Although picture quality is definitely better on the CBS games as opposed to the Fox games.
Usually when there's alot of motion on the screen, I can see it. It's their other HD channels that seem to suffer on Sunday afternoons when they max out the bandwidth for football. Most home theater forums jokingly refer to DirecTV's high def offerings as "HD lite" because of the bandwidth issues they're having with mpeg2 compression.

I have never watched another HD channel on Sunday afternoons in the Fall. lol

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:41 pm

bkrich83 wrote: I have never watched another HD channel on Sunday afternoons in the Fall. lol

I normally don't either, but sometimes the selection of late games in HD isn't that great, or they become blowouts... then it's time to flick.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:52 pm

jondiehl wrote:
bkrich83 wrote: I have never watched another HD channel on Sunday afternoons in the Fall. lol
I normally don't either, but sometimes the selection of late games in HD isn't that great, or they become blowouts... then it's time to flick.

I was flipping one Sunday a few weeks ago, and HDNet (I think) had the World Shuffleboard Championships on. Bunch of guys standing around in a pool hall playing table-top shuffleboard, in hi-def. It was so ridiculous I wound up watching for a bit in disbelief.

bjackets · Post by **bjackets** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:04 pm

To optimize picture quality, tune/calibrate your set using Avia or Digital Video Essentials and use those settings as a baseline for optimizing your Cable picture.

Sports73,

1.Where do I find these and are they software you need to have your TV hooked up to a computer or DVD player to use?

2.Does the calibration make that big of a difference?

Thank you.

ohiost

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:20 pm

Brando70 wrote:
jondiehl wrote:
bkrich83 wrote: I have never watched another HD channel on Sunday afternoons in the Fall. lol
I normally don't either, but sometimes the selection of late games in HD isn't that great, or they become blowouts... then it's time to flick.
I was flipping one Sunday a few weeks ago, and HDNet (I think) had the World Shuffleboard Championships on. Bunch of guys standing around in a pool hall playing table-top shuffleboard, in hi-def. It was so ridiculous I wound up watching for a bit in disbelief.

I love HDNet. There's always something good on there!!!

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:23 pm

bkrich83 wrote: I love HDNet. There's always something good on there!!!

Yes, especially late in the evening on Monday's, "guy's night in" I believe they call it.

Sport73 · Post by **Sport73** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:30 pm

bjackets wrote:To optimize picture quality, tune/calibrate your set using Avia or Digital Video Essentials and use those settings as a baseline for optimizing your Cable picture.

Sports73,

1.Where do I find these and are they software you need to have your TV hooked up to a computer or DVD player to use?

2.Does the calibration make that big of a difference?

Thank you.

ohiost

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/630551 ... d&v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/630551 ... d&v=glance

Yes, they can/will make a HUGE difference. Trying to set appropriate brightness, contrast, sharpness, and color/tint with your eyes is almost impossible. These are simple DVD's (I use Avia) that make it easy within a few minutes to get the best performance out of your TV (inlcuding lighting conditions etc.). They will help you adjust your picture so that you're seeing 'closest to source/intent' quality. Most TV's ship with CONTRAST (White Level) way too high, leading to loss of detail in whites. They ship with color saturation TOO high, leading to color bleed and pink faces. They ship with brightness too high, leading to washed out colors and/or poor black levels. They do this because they need to compete with the bright lights of the showroom and to stand out against competitors, not because it looks best at your home.

For some people the difference is sublte, for others dramatic. Either way, for $30 on a DVD that can make your $2000+ TV perform better, it's an easy decision to keep one handy!

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:06 pm

jondiehl wrote:
bkrich83 wrote: I love HDNet. There's always something good on there!!!
Yes, especially late in the evening on Monday's, "guy's night in" I believe they call it.

They've had some good concerts on, too. Watched some of the Son Volt show the other night, which is also nice because it's in 5.1. The picture looked really great.

Of course, then I also watched Any Which Way You Can on HD Movies, which was still a monkey turd of a movie (although a nice looking monkey turd).

BK/jon, regarding the artificats you're seeing, what cables do you have hooked up? When I was using HDMI on my DTV box, Sunday Ticket games looked amazing. I then switched the HDMI cable to my upconverting DVD player, and used the component cables that came with the box. The noise level jumped considerably. I bought some relatively inexpensive Acoustic Research component cables, which were shielded, and the picture is no pretty clear and noise free (especially live broadcasts).

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:26 pm

Brando70 wrote: BK/jon, regarding the artificats you're seeing, what cables do you have hooked up? When I was using HDMI on my DTV box, Sunday Ticket games looked amazing. I then switched the HDMI cable to my upconverting DVD player, and used the component cables that came with the box. The noise level jumped considerably. I bought some relatively inexpensive Acoustic Research component cables, which were shielded, and the picture is no pretty clear and noise free (especially live broadcasts).

I have my main HDTV hooked up via HDMI (HD Tivo) and a secondary HDTV hooked up with component (a Zenith DirecTV HD receiver). What I'm talking about has nothing to do with that though. Look at this for an example of what I mean:

http://www.widemovies.com/directvcomp.html

The bitrates have gone to hell on DirecTV's HD channels, that's just a fact (through people monitoring it). Check out this thread too:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=556725

I will warn you though, once you start to notice this stuff, HD channels on DirecTV aren't going to look as good to you anymore. Once you notice the imperfections and see what I'm talking about, it will just piss you off more than anything.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:43 pm

Brando70 wrote:I was flipping one Sunday a few weeks ago, and HDNet (I think) had the World Shuffleboard Championships on. Bunch of guys standing around in a pool hall playing table-top shuffleboard, in hi-def. It was so ridiculous I wound up watching for a bit in disbelief.

I watched curling on HDNet at my pop's house Sunday during halftime of the Chiefs-Dallas game. Then again, I think curling can be cool -- good to drink to, as well!

Bull's eye -- CHUG!

Take care,
PK

bkrich83 · Post by **bkrich83** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:35 am

Brando70 wrote:
jondiehl wrote:
bkrich83 wrote: I love HDNet. There's always something good on there!!!
Yes, especially late in the evening on Monday's, "guy's night in" I believe they call it.
They've had some good concerts on, too. Watched some of the Son Volt show the other night, which is also nice because it's in 5.1. The picture looked really great.

Of course, then I also watched Any Which Way You Can on HD Movies, which was still a monkey turd of a movie (although a nice looking monkey turd).

BK/jon, regarding the artificats you're seeing, what cables do you have hooked up? When I was using HDMI on my DTV box, Sunday Ticket games looked amazing. I then switched the HDMI cable to my upconverting DVD player, and used the component cables that came with the box. The noise level jumped considerably. I bought some relatively inexpensive Acoustic Research component cables, which were shielded, and the picture is no pretty clear and noise free (especially live broadcasts).

I am not really seeing the artifacts. I have my main HDTV (Samsung 50" DLP) hooked up to my HD DTV receiver via component cable. The cables were some pretty expensive Monster cables the sales guy grabbed for me. My DVD player like you is connected via HDMI.

My secoodary HDTV (32" Sharp Aquos) is HDMI from the DTV receiver.

jondiehl · Post by **jondiehl** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:47 am

bkrich83 wrote:I am not really seeing the artifacts.

It varies from channel to channel, and it's not there all of the time either. Read the webpage that I linked above, it has actual bitrate stats sampled from various HD channels on DirecTV and they're all over the board.... with some screenshots to show you what it looks like.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:01 pm

LOL, jon, I really appreciate the great resource that is the AVS forums, but I sometimes wonder if those guys are ever happy

I figured you and BK knew what you were doing. I was the dingbat that was surprised that the cheapo component cables that came with my DTV HD box weren't very good.

You certainly can tell the difference between picture quality among the various "HD" channels, with Discovery and ESPN looking the best on my 42 inch set. I also sit about 10 feet back from the TV, so I don't tend to notice a lot of image flaws unless they're pretty obvious (like HDNet movies running an old, shitty Clint Eastwood/monkey movie).

I've been pretty happy with the HD quality of the NFL games. I get Fox OTA, and honestly can't tell much of a difference between the Sunday Ticket feed and the antenna feed. But I also haven't been at this HD business for long.

I will say that I'm quite happy with the Sony upconverting DVD player I bought. It has the stupid shift issue, but I have it set to output at 720p and the shift is not very noticeable on my set (especially with letterbox films). The picture quality actually looks as good if not better than some of the DTV stuff.