OT: NBA 2005-2006 Season Discussion

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:28 pm

sportdan30 wrote:Where is Jay Williams (former Duke, ex Bull player) these days? Haven't heard his name in the media for a long time.

He's rehabbing right now, and he plans to be back by December or January. He hasn't been signed by a team yet.

sportdan30 · Post by **sportdan30** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:31 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
sportdan30 wrote:Where is Jay Williams (former Duke, ex Bull player) these days? Haven't heard his name in the media for a long time.
He's rehabbing right now, and he plans to be back by December or January. He hasn't been signed by a team yet.

Thanks. I sure hope he makes it back and has a nice NBA career. If he doesn't get hurt, Hinrich is playing elsewhere.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:16 am

The Hawks now have a 2 game winning streak! I can't believe they won at Indiana. The Pacers should start looking for a new coach after than one!

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:20 pm

Looks like Ike started fairly well for the Warriors even though he has had limited min. in his first three games. I expect big things from that former Sun Devil.

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:14 am

Only the Hawks......

With the score 54-51 in the 3rd the Hawks had yet to see a lead in the game.

However, the Hawks took the lead 52-51 in said game. Sound impossible??? Not with the Hawks.

Kazuya · Post by **Kazuya** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:16 pm

sportdan30 wrote:Thanks. I sure hope he makes it back and has a nice NBA career. If he doesn't get hurt, Hinrich is playing elsewhere.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but Williams was definitely considered to be the superior talent. They were both equally bad as rookies, and no one really knows how he would have progressed had he not been injured. While I do like what I see from Hinrich, I'm pretty sure what you see is what you get: lots of bricks, good team ball and solid passing. In college at least, Williams displayed star potential and gifted passing and shooting skills. Anyways, I would think that the ideal scenario for the Bulls would have been that Williams doesn't get hurt and develops and the Bulls use next year's pick on another need.

sfz_T-car · Post by **sfz_T-car** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:02 pm

Jay Williams killed this thread for a while.

It was only a matter of time before Pat Riley came back downstairs. His timing couldn't be better with Shaq's return. The Heat is in a creampuff division but they're not a particularly good team right now. It'll be interesting to see how Riley handles Employee #8 and the other Jay Williams.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:50 pm

sfz_T-car wrote:Jay Williams killed this thread for a while.

It was only a matter of time before Pat Riley came back downstairs. His timing couldn't be better with Shaq's return. The Heat is in a creampuff division but they're not a particularly good team right now. It'll be interesting to see how Riley handles Employee #8 and the other Jay Williams.

It's only been a few years but I think many people question is Riley one of the top coaches in the game anymore. The Heat have a lot of question marks and I'm not sure this was the right move but I guess we'll see.

bdunn13 · Post by **bdunn13** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:27 am

Want to hear something scary? The Hawks have won 4 of the last 5.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:35 pm

Hellova game tonight between the Bulls and Suns...that was one up and down game. That is the first team I've seen try to actually run with the Suns. Worked for a while, but it seems as though the Bulls just ran out of gas in OT...well that and they didn't have anyone athletic enough to stop Marion. That was fun.

sfz_T-car · Post by **sfz_T-car** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:24 pm

I don't know what's worse: Bob Weiss getting axed only 30 games into his first season in Seattle, or having this picture accompany the article on the Sports Illustrated website.

I know he's not a good looking guy but that picture makes him look like Mortimer Snerd. Don't get me started on the tie either. No wonder Danny Fortson wasn't listening.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:30 am

So far the season has gone to form in my book.

Spurs still dominate the West. Pistons are better than most expected but any team that plays as good on defense as they do is going to be trouble..

A couple of suprises so far for me are the Suns and Rockets. I didn't believe the Suns would play that well and the Rockets this poorly....

I still say Lebron for MVP. I hope they don't go the modern mandatory route and forcibly give it to the best player on the team with best or 2nd best record in the league which seems to be the #1 factor nowadays.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:34 am

This season's Suns team pretty much just validates Nash's MVP last year in my eyes. They have surprised me as well...I thought they'd play a little over .500 ball. But they are playing .750 ball and leading the league in scoring at the same time. They have also improved their defense measurably...holding opponents well under 100 a game. All this without their dominating force in the middle. When he gets back...the Spurs may actually have some competition for the West title outside of the state of Texas (Dallas is damn good as well, but they don't have the firepower Phoenix does when/if Amare comes back).

How Nash has gotten these guys on his back and carried them has been simply amazing. Marion should get some MVP mentions as well...the guy simply does EVERYTHING. Of course he won't get it, but he should get mentioned at least.

And anyone who says Tayshawn Prince is in the same league as him is just a f*cking moron.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:50 am

LeBron for MVP? Please. If he tries to play even a lick of defense, I would reconsider. Nash last year at least tried - as much if not more than the other perimeter Suns. 'Bron, with his physical gifts, should be a very good defender. You can't muscle him, he can run with all but the little waterbug guards, and is quick and long enough to contest almost every shot. Instead, he tries to poach the passing lanes and does a doggy-style reacharound when people drive by him. If he hustled and rotated to cover for his teammates who have to pick up his man, maybe Cleveland would be better than 23rd in the league in opponents FG% and 27th in opponents 3pt FG%.

Plus he was better offensively last year (excepting his 3 point shooting).

Do people actually compare Marion to Prince? That's like apples and raisins. Marion is the best rebounding SF in the game, probably the best at that since Larry Bird. Prince is just a more athletic version of Jared Jeffries - which isn't a bad thing - length and quickness allow him to play a reactive defensive style, sagging off to prevent drives and still getting a hand in the face.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:37 am

There is a certain poster here that did that many a time...he shall remain nameless...but it's coming. Actually it's probably in this thread somewhere. He just does it to get a rise out of me. It is obviously the most ridiculous statement ever made in public.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:53 am

EZSnappin wrote:LeBron for MVP? Please. If he tries to play even a lick of defense, I would reconsider. Nash last year at least tried - as much if not more than the other perimeter Suns. 'Bron, with his physical gifts, should be a very good defender. You can't muscle him, he can run with all but the little waterbug guards, and is quick and long enough to contest almost every shot. Instead, he tries to poach the passing lanes and does a doggy-style reacharound when people drive by him. If he hustled and rotated to cover for his teammates who have to pick up his man, maybe Cleveland would be better than 23rd in the league in opponents FG% and 27th in opponents 3pt FG%.

Hmmm... As far as the defense I agree Lebron could improve but then defending Steve Nash in the next sentence doesn't quite make sense to me.

As far as his last year being better, well for most players that was a career year at 25,7,7 had only been done a handful of times in NBA history. This year he is "only" at 30,6,5 which I don't see as demonstrably worse since he has a bigger scoring load. For his "lack" of defense he still kicks in nearly two steals a game and nearly a block a game. He's shooting right at 50% and in addition has a team that still isn't very good in my book at second place in their division currently with an 18-10 record. So while I agree there are obviously other good candidates like Dirk, Wade, Brand, Duncan, etc I can easily say it ain't a "please" proposition.

Leebo33 · Post by **Leebo33** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:59 pm

AI for MVP!

OK, I'm not sure he is the MVP but he is having a great season. 33.7 ppg on 45% shooting, 7.4 assists (2.4 assist to turnover ratio), and 2.2 steals.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:25 pm

Man it's depressing for Warriors fans to see Arenas put up 40 every other game. With such a nice stroke too from 3-point range. Not that it's helping the Wizards win but damn if we still had him, they wouldn't have burned cap dollars on Fisher (who's shooting well it must be said).

sfz_T-car · Post by **sfz_T-car** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 2:58 pm

Losing Arenas hurt, but that was 2+ years ago. It's time to move on. Davis and Richardson is a strong backcourt, the Ws needs are elsewhere.

Golden State still had the right to match the Wizards' offer sheet but the Saint had botched the cap.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:07 pm

reeche wrote:Hmmm... As far as the defense I agree Lebron could improve but then defending Steve Nash in the next sentence doesn't quite make sense to me.

As far as his last year being better, well for most players that was a career year at 25,7,7 had only been done a handful of times in NBA history. This year he is "only" at 30,6,5 which I don't see as demonstrably worse since he has a bigger scoring load. For his "lack" of defense he still kicks in nearly two steals a game and nearly a block a game. He's shooting right at 50% and in addition has a team that still isn't very good in my book at second place in their division currently with an 18-10 record. So while I agree there are obviously other good candidates like Dirk, Wade, Brand, Duncan, etc I can easily say it ain't a "please" proposition.

The reason I brought up Nash was he tries. He does not have the physical skills - size, strength or lateral speed - to be a good defender. LeBron has all of those and doesn't try. As far as his 2 steals, they don't track failed gambles, which can cost his team points or fouls.

The team: last year they were - talent wise - a 7-8 seed team. They upgraded the talent considerably with Hughes, Marshall and D. Jones, yet LeBron has needed to up his scoring and do less in other ways? It seems counterintuitive to me. I would have expected his support stats - particularly rebounding - to increase. I don't expect Marion levels, but he should be as good as the smaller Pierce and Jefferson (just under 8) and better than McGrady (7.2).

I don't mean to come across as crapping on LeBron - he's a top ten talent at 21, which is absolutely amazing. I just expected more growth and effort at things other than scoring. And I would say the Cavs should be better than 18-10 - this team should not lose 2 to NJ, for example.

The "please" comment should be rescinded - I'm just so tired of people (not you, so I'm sorry - this has been a good conversation) declaring he's beter than MJ, he's the best player in the league, etc. I tend to harp on LeBron's D because it is such a glaring weakness, and probably don't marvel enough at his offensive skills.

Changing Small Forwards - is it me or is Paul Pierce being unfairly overlooked this year? I haven't heard his name brought up in MVP conversations, even though he is playing as well as anyone in the league AND is on a dreadful team with nothing but the much maligned Ricky Davis as help.

Pierce and Marion for co-MVP!

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:34 pm

EZSnappin wrote: I don't mean to come across as crapping on LeBron - he's a top ten talent at 21, which is absolutely amazing.

No Problem. I don't think anybody is Michael Johnson, Larry Bird, or Magic Johnson like the media proclaims. You have to win championships to properly evoke those comparisons. I do think Lebron along with Wade are probably the two best players (excluding center types like Shaq or Duncan) to enter the league since maybe MJ.

Here is John Hollinger's top 20 according to his PER rating forumla. I'm a big fan of hollinger's and while I don't think it necessarily corresponds to MVP voting, it's interesting for debating purposes.

Hollinger Stats: Player Efficiency Rating
RNK Player GP Min FG% FT% TS% Ast TO Usg ORR DRR Reb PER
1 LeBron James, CLE 28 41.6 .497 .771 .594 16.3 9.9 29.7 2.1 16.0 9.0 28.46
2 Elton Brand, LAC 29 39.6 .531 .762 .587 9.8 8.5 24.3 10.8 19.2 15.2 27.79
3 Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 31 38.1 .466 .897 .575 9.6 6.1 27.1 3.6 24.5 14.2 27.66
4 Dwyane Wade, MIA 32 38.8 .470 .776 .555 19.7 9.4 29.9 4.7 13.4 9.2 27.32
5 Allen Iverson, PHI 31 43.6 .451 .779 .538 17.7 7.3 32.7 2.0 6.8 4.4 27.26
6 Kevin Garnett, MIN 28 39.5 .540 .773 .591 19.1 8.7 23.4 6.2 26.5 16.4 27.24
7 Tim Duncan, SAS 31 35.5 .518 .665 .554 13.4 10.1 25.5 9.3 27.4 18.7 26.34
8 Kobe Bryant, LAL 29 40.1 .437 .811 .528 11.6 7.5 35.3 4.0 11.9 7.9 26.20
9 Chauncey Billups, DET 29 35.4 .436 .933 .628 32.4 7.4 24.1 1.4 8.8 5.1 26.04
10 Paul Pierce, BOS 30 38.8 .494 .805 .602 15.1 10.6 26.4 3.5 20.5 12.2 24.95
11 Tracy McGrady, HOU 21 38.3 .407 .761 .514 16.2 8.3 31.1 3.4 18.2 11.0 24.43
12 Vince Carter, NJN 28 36.6 .454 .855 .566 14.2 8.9 28.3 6.3 12.9 9.7 24.21
13 Gilbert Arenas, WAS 28 41.9 .442 .808 .576 17.1 11.0 29.6 2.4 7.5 4.9 23.79
14 Marcus Camby, DEN 25 33.5 .503 .742 .543 7.6 10.7 19.9 8.9 34.6 21.8 23.05
15 Chris Bosh, TOR 31 39.3 .494 .807 .575 10.9 9.6 22.9 8.6 21.6 14.8 22.93
16 Pau Gasol, MEM 30 39.1 .488 .690 .543 16.9 11.4 24.1 8.1 20.6 14.5 22.91
17 Jermaine O'Neal, IND 27 37.1 .477 .742 .536 8.7 10.9 26.5 8.0 22.9 15.8 22.70
18 Yao Ming, HOU 22 33.9 .506 .837 .579 6.2 13.6 25.2 9.4 21.4 15.6 22.30
19 Shawn Marion, PHO 30 41.0 .516 .716 .574 8.4 7.3 18.8 8.1 22.9 15.7 22.25
20 Zydrunas Ilgauskas, CLE 27 29.6 .500 .879 .586 5.5 12.6 21.0 13.9 16.9 15.4 22.23

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:03 pm

Well the story was that Arenas wanted a handshake from Cohan that he would be taken care of if he signed with the Warriors for less for a short contract and then he'd get a bigger one than the Wizards could offer.

Maybe Arenas is lying but right now, he's worth more than what Davis and Richardson are getting.

Look at Davis' shooting versus Arenas.

Here's a dirty little secret. The Warriors' flaws are thought to be mostly on the front court but Davis is shooting poorly this year, even though his scoring and assists are still good.

And yes you got to move on and people forgot about Arenas because of the Davis trade but I'm thinking the loss of Arenas is the biggest loss since Webber, maybe bigger than losing Parish.

EZSnappin · Post by **EZSnappin** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:04 pm

I like Hollinger's PER stat as well - though he does a good job in the latest version of his book pointing out all the failings due to lack of statistics for anything but the easily measurable (like defense). Has he updated his defensive PER ratings for this season?

Interesting that there are only two sets of teamates in that top 20 - T-Mac and Yao and LeBron & Big Z.

I wonder if injuries had hit the Cav's big two like in Houston how they would do. On paper, the Cavs have a better supporting cast than the Rockets, but I don't know if, based on how they've played, the win-loss record would be much different. So are the Cavs underacheiving or the depleted Rockets overacheiving? Just a conversation starter.

LBJ and Wade are top talents, but best since MJ? Maybe since MJ retired the second time - they are probably the best two to enter the league since 2000 or so. But if we're saying since MJ was ascendant in the early 90s (taking the baton from Bird & Magic), you've got Shaq, KG and Duncan, Kobe and AI (plus holdevers like Hakeem, Pippen, Isiah, Stockton & Malone). Those players are arguably better than LeBron and Wade. Though the two youngsters have many more years to prove their place in the pantheon.

reeche · Post by **reeche** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:01 pm

EZSnappin wrote:But if we're saying since MJ was ascendant in the early 90s (taking the baton from Bird & Magic), you've got Shaq, KG and Duncan, Kobe and AI (plus holdevers like Hakeem, Pippen, Isiah, Stockton & Malone). Those players are arguably better than LeBron and Wade. Though the two youngsters have many more years to prove their place in the pantheon.

Hakeem I'd lump in the center category where it's harder to compare players like that and their impact which is magnified imo with just about any center...Although he was quite a short center by comparison so it's a stretch.

Shaq is the same.

Isiah got in a few years before Jordan.

This well upset the Bulls fans but I think both players are already ahead of Pippen and if not will shortly be so. That being said, I doubt either will win as many rings as he has in their careers.

Stockton and Malone are indeed great players but I have a feeling Wade or Lebron will have as great a careers as they did. Maybe for not as long but I have a feeling either will end up with a ring at some point.

As far as the modern stars like KG, Kobe, Iverson, I think all it will take is time. I think both are more complete and discplined than Kobe already for instance. I certainly could be dissapointed by both as injuries (see Penny Hardaway) or just plain decline or lack of committment could derail either (See Vince Carter) but I think these two are the best thing to hit the NBA in easily a decade. They both are exciting, multi-talented guys who play the game the right way and still have room for growth. I find myself compelled to watch when either is playing which is a good sign.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:51 pm

I wouldn't write off VC.

I could see the Nets in the Eastern Conference Finals.

Actually, they probably need more help inside.

But they may play small ball as well as anyone at times. Probably got the best pair of finishers on any team.