NFL Discussion (Week 12) Common Sense 1 - T.O. 0

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:13 pm

Ok, hate, I don't blame you. Hard to defend people who are just plain dumbasses :

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2238758

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:28 pm

Bears play pretty lousy and still get a win.

My year and a half rant on how Charles Tillman is a horrible defensive back and is highly overrated is being proven on a weekly basis this season. Hopefully the coaching staff will realize it too I just hope it doesn't take until the playoffs before it happens.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:23 am

Inuyasha wrote: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2238758

Nice....

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:56 am

Danimal wrote:Bears play pretty lousy and still get a win.

My year and a half rant on how Charles Tillman is a horrible defensive back and is highly overrated is being proven on a weekly basis this season. Hopefully the coaching staff will realize it too I just hope it doesn't take until the playoffs before it happens.

I would hardly call that lousy. The offense struggled against Tampa's D, but the defense played great. Their pass rush was tremendous all game and Alex Brown had the best game a Bears lineman has had in 20 years. Galloway did have a good game against Tillman, but he's had good games against almost everyone this year. The Bears are second in passing yards allowed -- I don't think they need to worry about Tillman too much.

Bottom line is they stepped up and won in a game that had big playoff implications.

Danimal · Post by **Danimal** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:12 am

Brando70 wrote: Galloway did have a good game against Tillman, but he's had good games against almost everyone this year. The Bears are second in passing yards allowed -- I don't think they need to worry about Tillman too much.

Galloway didn't catch a pass last week.

Regardless, everytime a WR gets open for a big play, or a long completition who is the DB in coverage?

He can't single cover anyone, and you can't roll the safety over to help him out on everyplay. In fact if it wasn't for the front 4 getting the pressure they are, he would be exposed even more.

Now why did I call it a lousy game. Tampa put 8 men in the box, took Jone out of the game on the run. Took Musin out of the game and Orton couldn't do anything. For the second week in a row, if not for a defenisve turnover to give the Bears a first and goal, the Bears would have no TD's. You can't count on that every week, sooner or later it is gonna bite you.

The Bears D look tired in the second half, especially on that Tampa scoring drive. How many tackles were missed today? That is the sign of a defense who is starting to tire. Overall they played fantastic again. But game after game of no offense has to start taking its toll on the D.

The return game is just horrible at this point, I thought Wade should have been gone after last week when he looked timid on every punt coming his way. His fumble today would have sealed his fate if Bradley wasn't out for the year.

I'm as caught up in the Bears play as anyone, but to think they don't have room for improvement on both sides of the ball is just drinking the kool aid a little too much for even myself. They may be 2nd in the league in fewest pass yards allowed, but that stat is more reflective of the Defensive line then the secondary.

So again I say Tillman is an average at best CB, he made his name off of one play against Randy Moss, and I'm not sure how it would be a downgrade to go with Azuma.

Wrekcut1 · Post by **Wrekcut1** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:20 am

I agree about Tillman. It seems that he struggles or leaves someone open in every game. As for Orton, I have a hard time putting all the blame on him. Lovie isn't doing Orton any favors by only doing small short passing plays sporadically through the game. It seems that they aren't even trying to get him in a rhythm. Orton has proved he can pass the ball, but it would be hard for most young quarterbacks to do well in the passing game that the Bears have set up.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:27 am

After watching him manhandle another interior offensive line this week, I think Pat Williams of the Vikes is the most disruptive defensive player I've watched. It doesn't seem to matter how many guys are assigned to him, he finds a way to disrupt inside runs and short QB drops so often it is ridiculous.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:38 am

Dave wrote:After watching him manhandle another interior offensive line this week, I think Pat Williams of the Vikes is the most disruptive defensive player I've watched. It doesn't seem to matter how many guys are assigned to him, he finds a way to disrupt inside runs and short QB drops so often it is ridiculous.

Yep, I had the pleasure of watching Williams every week with the Bills from 1997-2004. Sad the Bills let him go, as it's no coincidence the Bills' D isn't nearly as good this year as it was in 2003 and 2004.

Losing Spikes to injury hurt this year, but I think people underestimated how good Pat Williams made the Bills' defense. He stacked so much stuff at the line, which allowed linebackers and safeties to do their jobs against the run more easily.

Take care,
PK

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:11 am

Danimal wrote:I'm as caught up in the Bears play as anyone, but to think they don't have room for improvement on both sides of the ball is just drinking the kool aid a little too much for even myself. They may be 2nd in the league in fewest pass yards allowed, but that stat is more reflective of the Defensive line then the secondary.

So again I say Tillman is an average at best CB, he made his name off of one play against Randy Moss, and I'm not sure how it would be a downgrade to go with Azuma.

I'm not saying there's no room for improvement. Their passing game is really poor, their playcalling too cautious (yet again). And I am hardly a sunshine and smiles Bear fan -- I expected a 7-9 season at best this year, and that was just because of their weak schedule.

But I'm also not going to nitpick a defense that is doing everything right. Since his terrible performance in the Cleveland and Cincy games, Tillman has played pretty well and kept receivers out of the endzone. Smith may have caught a lot of yards last week, and Galloway beat him a couple times yesterday, but those are two of the best receivers in the league this year. Tillman is a better run defender than Azumah, and I think starting Tillman and Vasher and bringing Azumah in for nickel use makes sense.

I guess my point is, I'm done with naysaying this year. This has been a fantastic Bears season. They have not only the best D in the league, they have the best D since the 2000 Ravens. A 3-2 finish would probably put them in the #2 NFC spot (considering tiebreakers against Carolina and TB), and a January playoff game in Chicago plays right into their strengths. Considering where they were after the Cleveland debacle, it's incredible I can write that with a straight face in late November.

Wrekcut1 · Post by **Wrekcut1** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:50 am

I couldn't agree more. I love watching this season, and it has been nice to see wins instead of losses. I would just like to see Orton have some more opportunities to grow this year.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:56 pm

Part of the problem evaluating the Bears D is that they don't have an offense which can give them an extended breather now and then. Ol' "3 & Out" Orton isn't doing anyone on the D a favor by winging balls around with all the accuracy of a NY Times reporter.

I don't want to nitpick or naysay either, but this team is headed for nowhere unless Orton improves dramatically or they get Grossman healthy and back in the game. People attributing this winning streak to Orton is just ridiculous. The fact that we as Bears fans are so willing to embrace such mediocre QB play is only a testament to the fact that we've seen too many Krenzles etc.

I like Orton. He seems like a nice kid and he's got a great attitude etc. But wearing that 18 jersey he just seems a little bit too much like Mike Tomczak for my liking.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:07 pm

Is Orton this year's Trent Dilfer? I remember people saying how bad Dilfer was in 2000, yet he won a ring.

You never know ...

Take care,
PK

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:17 pm

pk500 wrote:Is Orton this year's Trent Dilfer? I remember people saying how bad Dilfer was in 2000, yet he won a ring.

You never know ...

Take care,
PK

He might be, but I don't think that's a blueprint that anyone should WANT to follow for winning a Super Bowl. And Dilfer was bad in 2000, but his rating was in the mid 70's as I recall. Orton is the worst rated passer in the league with more than a handful of starts and his rating is in the 60s. Aspiring to be Trent Dilfer is not a recipe for success.

Brando70 · Post by **Brando70** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RobVarak wrote:Part of the problem evaluating the Bears D is that they don't have an offense which can give them an extended breather now and then. Ol' "3 & Out" Orton isn't doing anyone on the D a favor by winging balls around with all the accuracy of a NY Times reporter.

I don't want to nitpick or naysay either, but this team is headed for nowhere unless Orton improves dramatically or they get Grossman healthy and back in the game. People attributing this winning streak to Orton is just ridiculous. The fact that we as Bears fans are so willing to embrace such mediocre QB play is only a testament to the fact that we've seen too many Krenzles etc.

I like Orton. He seems like a nice kid and he's got a great attitude etc. But wearing that 18 jersey he just seems a little bit too much like Mike Tomczak for my liking.

I'm really not trying to seem like a homer, but I think Orton's been decent. He's a fourth round rookie, and aside from the 5 interception game, he's done okay. He's definitely not Krenzel -- Orton has an arm and is a better decision-maker. Orton at least has the potential to be a consistent NFL starting QB.

It's not like this team is going to win the Super Bowl. There is no configuration of personnel that could make that happen. I don't think they could win the NFC championship even if they had home field the whole way. But they could get a playoff game or two under their belts, and for a young team like the Bears, that's a huge first step toward putting the franchise back on the winning track.

I think they should keep Orton as the starter unless his performance really flags, then open up the competition next year between him, Grossman, and anyone the Bears might pursue.

XXXIV · Post by **XXXIV** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:12 pm

The Bears ...Orton aside...at some point you have to believe that they are a real team. A defense that dominates.
I reached that point last week.This week, at least for me, confirmed it.
I am an official card carrying Bear bandwagon jumper....

The NFC is weak...I still think Seattle will win it but I wont be a bit surprised to see the Bears in the Super Bowl.

Wouldnt that be something if the White Sox and the Bears both won in the same season??

Boltman · Post by **Boltman** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:22 pm

pk500 wrote:Is Orton this year's Trent Dilfer? I remember people saying how bad Dilfer was in 2000, yet he won a ring.

You never know ...

Take care,
PK

It's funny you make that comparison. I was just thinking about the striking similarities between this Bears team, and the Baltimore team that won a super bowl.

They both have/had a solid ground game, strong defense, and a QB who tends not to do anything great but at the same time not make any careless mistakes.

Orton very much reminds me of Dilfer during that super bowl year.

Now I'm not saying its a sure fire thing that Da' Bears are going to the SB this year, but it is not out of the realm of possibility. I also would not be shocked to see a team like the bears make a run through a weak NFC (IMO).

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:22 pm

In the NFC, not just the Seahawks but also the Giants are better than the Bears mainly because the bears offense is weak.

You can get away with defense winning games in the regular season, but when you have to play high powered offense's in the playoffs, the bears defense won't be able to win playoff games all by themselves.

I can see them maybe winning a first round home game but I dont see them getting to the Superbowl.

I was looking at the Bears Schedule and they play all tough teams in these last 5 weeks (GB will be tough since it's their rival). Minnesota has a softer schedule so I would not be surprised if both Chi and Minn end up playing for a birth in the playoffs the last week of the season.

The bears are overrated but not overrated if you know what I mean. Their defense is awesome but their offense is too inept.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:35 pm

The Giants aren't winning anything with that kicker.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:44 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:The Giants aren't winning anything with that kicker.

Dude only had missed two FG's all season before yesterday. So either yesterday was just a really bad day or the guy does grip under pressure.

We'll see in the next tight game.

Take care,
PK

Wrekcut1 · Post by **Wrekcut1** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:51 pm

I think Orton has a very good career ahead of him if he continues to have chances to grow. He is a rookie this year and is already making very good decisions. A couple more years down the road and he will be a big threat to defenses. This is great news for the Bears who have been struggling at the QB position for so long.

Post by **ScoopBrady** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:19 pm

pk500 wrote:
dbdynsty25 wrote:The Giants aren't winning anything with that kicker.
Dude only had missed two FG's all season before yesterday. So either yesterday was just a really bad day or the guy does grip under pressure.

We'll see in the next tight game.

Take care,
PK

Wasn't Feely the kicker for the Falcons a few years ago? I remember the Bears beat the Falcons in Atlanta after their kicker missed a field goal that would have either given them the win or tie. I can't remember which but I think it would have won the game. That was the year the Bears started 2-2 and then fell apart after that and finished 4-12.

HipE · Post by **HipE** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:54 pm

I'm very excited for the Steelers-Colts game tonight. I know everyone is predicting the Colts to blow Pittsburgh out, but I think that Pittsburgh is going to win the game. They seem to have the perfect style team to beat the Colts. If Big Ben is able to move around and the Steelers can run the ball, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Steelers control the ball for 40 minutes and grind out a win. My biggest fear is that the Steelers terrible third down defense is going to end up killing them, but I have a feeling they are going to be pretty fired up tonight and ready to take it to the Colts. I wanted to see this matchup last year in the playoffs, this is probably the game I was most looking forward to this year when the schedule was announced.

And Leebo, you should be ashamed of yourself for going against Pittsburgh in the DSP picks thread. I don't remember you doing that once last year or this year up until this game, and look at the success you have had. If Pittsburgh does end up losing tonight, I'm going to place the blame on your and your lack of belief in the Steeelers.

RobVarak · Post by **RobVarak** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:01 pm

I don't understand how anyone can think that Orton is making good decisions. Granted, he's thrown more TDs than picks, but anyone who's watched him all year can see that he's been more than a little lucky. He's terribly inaccurate, regularly makes terrible reads, locks onto his primary receiver and does a poor job accounting for blitzes. He is the worst passer in the NFL for Pete's sake!!

Now I understand he's a rookie, and I'd be happy to see him grow into a fine starter. But honestly, there is little in the raw material he's working with that convinces me this will happen.

The Bears are winning, but it's despite this kid not because of him.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:20 pm

I don't think anyone said that the Bears are winning because of Orton...hell they are comparing him to Dilfer. If he's not the opitome of winning in spite of rather than because of, I don't know what is.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:21 pm

HipE wrote:If Big Ben is able to move around and the Steelers can run the ball, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Steelers control the ball for 40 minutes and grind out a win. My biggest fear is that the Steelers terrible third down defense is going to end up killing them

The Steelers' ability to control the clock is my biggest fear tonight. I have no idea how the Colts are going to attack them--Peyton is incredible against the blitz, but if Edge can grind out the yards then they can possibly frustrate the Steelers and get them to put the ball in the air more often.

Corey Simon needs to earn his $$$ tonight, that's for sure.

HipE, I'm just glad someone broke up the Bears circle jerk!