OT - Sony's next hate crime on consumers...

b_assassin · Post by **b_assassin** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:03 pm

http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/12/ne ... re_pr.html

Don't know if this is legit or not, but there have been rumors lately on how Sony is going to lock down your PS3 from playing rented, used or borrowed games, apparently they've filed for a patent on the technology to do it. After the whole CD DRM/rootkit fiasco, it doesn't sound outside the realm of possibility.

If this is how games are going to work on the PS3, you can count me out, not that I was in to begin with

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:05 pm

They won't let you "rent" games...f that. How on earch would they figure out a way to stop you from renting the game? Aren't the games that go to the gamefly's and blockbusters the same as the ones we buy? What are they going to do...make you activate games with a code you get when you buy it? WTF?

James_E · Post by **James_E** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:24 pm

It would potentially kill resale of games if they were locked to one PS3. Sony might like that but my guess is that it *might* hurt sales. For alot of people that would severely change their buying habits. If there's no way to resell a game I am WAY less likely to buy it in the first place.

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:25 pm

James_E wrote:It would potentially kill resale of games if they were locked to one PS3. Sony might like that but my guess is that it *might* hurt sales. For alot of people that would severely change their buying habits. If there's no way to resell a game I am WAY less likely to buy it in the first place.

I will rarely buy a game if I don't have the option to resell it. The only game I can think of that's been that way was Half Life 2 on the PC. If you were to sell it, you've gotta give the developer 10 bucks to transfer it to the new buyer. Stupid if you ask me.

pk500 · Post by **pk500** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:26 pm

I read this and thought, "Huh?"

This would stunt the growth of the gaming industry something fierce. The "rental model" may not be established with music, but it's almost as entrenched with gaming as it is with movies.

Am I going to take a chance on buying a $60 game in an unproven franchise without a rental? Probably not.

And what does this do to companies like Gamefly or Gamerang, or even video chains like Blockbuster? And companies like EB Games and Gamestop make good coin from used game sales.

I would think all of those companies' lawyers are preparing anti-trust lawsuits against Sony as we speak.

Take care,
PK

dougb · Post by **dougb** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:19 pm

Well that's in the future, here's a current reason to despise Sony.

http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/1 ... aking.html

Installing software on your PC that could potentially screw it up, without even the provision of an uninstaller!!??

Guess Sony is attempting to surpass Microsoft as one of the most hated companies on the planet (non Oil Company division) - if they haven't already done so.

Best wishes,

Doug

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:36 pm

Sony got a lot of crap on their plate it seems....

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=27603

b_assassin · Post by **b_assassin** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:29 pm

Serves Sony right for having so little regard for their own customers. The PS3 DRM thing reminds me of DIVX, the special DVD format that Circuit City was pushing years ago. It took less than a year for that little sham to fail completely. Unfortunately, if Sony locks down PS3 games, I don't think that sales will suffer much, although it will pretty much kill the 'secondary' games market. The gamestops and rental services of the world are going to have a harder time competing with the big retailers who don't bother with used games. The only potential benefit to the customer I can see is the long shot that prices on new games will drop, but considering that consumers are willing to shell out $50-$60 for new games now, it ain't gonna happen.

The CD/rootkit controversy has been gaining momentum over the past week, so much so that Sony halted production on all CDs that use it. Last I heard Microsoft was going to start removing it via their anit-spyware/defender tool. MS has to be loving this, at least for this week they aren't tech enemy #1

Jayhawker · Post by **Jayhawker** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:20 pm

So what do you do when your PS3 fails? Re-buy ALL of your games?

Sony has no where near the the quality control to try and pull this crap. I guess they think that having all of that marketshare is a disadvantage. Kiss it goodbye now.

kevinpars · Post by **kevinpars** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:08 pm

Let me just say that I really enjoyed Halflife2 on the PC. While I didn't much like having to run steam to play it, I lived with it. But it kills my soul that when I finished the game that i bought, I could not turn around and sell it to someone else.

Imagine if a car was owner specific and would not start for a second owner. This whole damn thing is anti American!! Down with Sony!!! I am getting a 360 even if none of the games i own are backward compatible!!!!!

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:20 am

This is all speculation based on a patent application isn't it? The other part of the patent was a way to prevent pirated discs from playing.

The publishers and developers care more about used games more than rented games. Supposedly, they get some of the rent money so they don't mind the rental market as much. Maybe that's why Blockbuster rentals are $7-8?

But developers see game stores and now possibly Best Buy devoting a lot of valuable shelf space to used games, which they don't make any money from, even though used games are more profitable for chains like EB and GS. And used games would take space from new games too, or not allow them to stay on the shelves long before being replaced by newer games.

But publishers aren't trying to fight the used game market, much to the consternation of the developers. Why exactly Sony would try to stop the used market isn't clear. They're a publisher but they also must know such a move would alienate gamers, especially if MS and Nintendo doesn't try to stop the secondhand games business.

b_assassin · Post by **b_assassin** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:35 am

wco81 wrote:This is all speculation based on a patent application isn't it? The other part of the patent was a way to prevent pirated discs from playing.

The publishers and developers care more about used games more than rented games. Supposedly, they get some of the rent money so they don't mind the rental market as much. Maybe that's why Blockbuster rentals are $7-8?

But developers see game stores and now possibly Best Buy devoting a lot of valuable shelf space to used games, which they don't make any money from, even though used games are more profitable for chains like EB and GS. And used games would take space from new games too, or not allow them to stay on the shelves long before being replaced by newer games.

But publishers aren't trying to fight the used game market, much to the consternation of the developers. Why exactly Sony would try to stop the used market isn't clear. They're a publisher but they also must know such a move would alienate gamers, especially if MS and Nintendo doesn't try to stop the secondhand games business.

Speculation is fun, especally when it is speculation about the next evil to be committed by Sony

Now some more speculation on why Sony might do this:
If copy protection of the PS3 is as restrictive as the patent suggests, then it would effectively eliminate the secondary market for PS3 games. If Sony takes that gamble, then obviously they think that it will make more money in the long run. Theoretically, every PS3 game sold would be a new sale, and both Sony and the publisher can reap the benefit of that sale. The more I think about it, the less I think Sony will actually do this, although I do find pondering the possibilities interesting. For the publishers and developers investing millions to make these games, guaranteed revenue for every sale could sway them to favor the PS3 over competing platforms. PS3 exclusives and developer support could be enough to mitigate the consumer backlash, or maybe the whole thing just blows up in their face. It obviously a bad thing for consumers, is it bad enough for all those MGS-loving, Sony loyalists to stay away? Probably not. Even so, I just don't know if there is enough money to be had in the secondary market to make it worth it for Sony. Especially with MS already poised to snatch up more market share in the next-gen.

Perhaps the most amusing thing in all of this is that Sony has become so arrogant and cavalier in their attitude toward the customer and their competition that we would entertain this PS3 copy protection scheme as a possibility.

wco81 · Post by **wco81** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:45 am

They're in a lot more competitive situation now. They have a lot riding on the PS3, since they're more dependent than ever on the games business to provide profits and for the PS3 to make Blu-Ray successful.

If they want to take stupid risks of alienating consumers, then they would deserve their stupidity.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:04 am

I'm afraid that Sony's problems have little to do with the gaming divisions for now. The fact of the matter is that Sony is a huge company and as such it is inflexible when market conditions require change. Sony is like the second or third largest producer of music and CD's and that market has had a depression in sales for like the last five years. All of the big record companies have been hit really hard by all the MP3 file sharing and people stealing music. Revenues and CD sales have been down like 30% - 40% for a few years.

This is a huge thing for Sony. Also, my guess is that HDTV's are not selling as fast as they need to as they are still way too expensive. THe TV division is likely not making a big profit at the present due to high prices and too many companies selling them.

Sony has business in many small places that probably historically made only a small profit or broke even. When all the big money making divisions are going strong this is OK but in tough times this hurts. Once a company gets so big it is very dependent on steady and continual world economic conditions. IF these things change the company has a hard time adapting.

And the pending lawsuits don't help either...

http://www.digitalsportspage.com/module ... light=sony

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:51 am

10spro wrote:Sony is like the second or third largest producer of music and CD's and that market has had a depression in sales for like the last five years. All of the big record companies have been hit really hard by all the MP3 file sharing and people stealing music. Revenues and CD sales have been down like 30% - 40% for a few years.

That's total BS. I just read an article that stated music sales were UP this year. Maybe, and that's a big maybe, CD sales have been a little down, but I'm sure sales through Itunes and thelike have more than made up for it.

When they were blowing the horns of poor sales, it was more like 10% at most.

10spro · Post by **10spro** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:33 pm

matthewk wrote:
10spro wrote:Sony is like the second or third largest producer of music and CD's and that market has had a depression in sales for like the last five years. All of the big record companies have been hit really hard by all the MP3 file sharing and people stealing music. Revenues and CD sales have been down like 30% - 40% for a few years.
That's total BS. I just read an article that stated music sales were UP this year. Maybe, and that's a big maybe, CD sales have been a little down, but I'm sure sales through Itunes and thelike have more than made up for it.

When they were blowing the horns of poor sales, it was more like 10% at most.

The music industry likes to complain about sales lost to piracy, but figures that show huge sales declines only tell part of the story. Before we blame this trend on infringement, we have to make several assumptions, including that the demand for music has remained steady. In other words we're talking 'interest" vs "sales" here.

Sony has been stealthily installing hidden software on PCs, when people try to play Sony BMG music albums on their computers.

This software installs automatically, when users insert music CDs with XCP digital rights management technology in their computers. The software is geared towards limiting the number of copies that users can make from CDs, plus restricting ripping of the disk. Basically, The rootkit helped to hide the digital rights management technology, both from the user as well as the system, including the anti-virus software. From Sony's point of view, its motives are clear, but following a bunch of lawsuits, bad press and a potential consumer backlash, Sony BMG has suspended production of its copy-protected CDs.

Now, knowing this, would you buy a music CD from Sony?

Even worse, Sony admits a computer virus is circulating that may affect computers with XCP content protection software, leaving a large stock of CDs in the marketplace, though it is unclear just how bad the consumer fallout will be in the coming weeks. Sony's Japanese market share is also falling to its home rivals. These days Sony is losing out to Matsushita in six of the 10 categories, including DVD recorders and plasma TV's.

The same slippage is happening worldwide; in the most famous cases, Sony failed to spot the potential of flat-panel TVs, ceding leadership to Samsung and Sharp, and fumbled the lead in digital music players to Apple. The appointment of a foreig CEO in H. Stringer is a sign of how far the iconic company has fallen in the Japanese Corporate elite.

I do a lot of business in Asia, and the big S people are talking about is for the name "Samsung" .

dbdynsty25 · Post by **dbdynsty25** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:43 pm

10spro wrote:The music industry likes to complain about sales lost to piracy, but figures that show huge sales declines only tell part of the story.

But like Matt said...there HAVEN'T been the huge sales declines like the record industry would like you to believe. Why do you insist on talking yourself in a circle?

matthewk · Post by **matthewk** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:11 pm

dbdynsty25 wrote:
10spro wrote:The music industry likes to complain about sales lost to piracy, but figures that show huge sales declines only tell part of the story.
But like Matt said...there HAVEN'T been the huge sales declines like the record industry would like you to believe. Why do you insist on talking yourself in a circle?

Ah, good. It wasn't just me that went "WTF?" to that response.

b_assassin · Post by **b_assassin** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:15 am

More fuel for the fire. Not really any new information here, just slightly different terminology.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6283697.html